On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
Bjergsen got a penta as Karma mid at one point, don't remember the tourney/league.
edit:
Karma top has been a terror against melee champs since the rework, if you get a good ult E in a teamfight it basically resets your ult cd on the spot
On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
No she's never really seen play except the stupid jungle karma thing Diamond tried (which was retarded btw).
She doesn't scale nearly as badly as you make her sound. And she actually quite comparable utility to Lulu imo, but worse at protecting a single target. Lulu needs 300 AP to match karmas speed boost, and karma can do it on the whole team which is the sick part. Lulu's last way longer though.
I played Karma top quite a bit. You don't W max, as Q gets more from levels. It's alright, but she burns mana super fast. Its hard to get enough CDR, regen and health at the same time to avoid getting allined by scary tops. Old morello wasn't enough mana for her, so she's probably be much worse now.
I still think she should get competitive play. Her teamwide utility is pretty crazy if you were really coordinated, and she is super safe in mid lane.
Has anyone heard of vvvortic? I was playing against a person named vvvvvvvvvvvortic and everyone on my team started to go giddy once they figured out who he was.
I did some Google searches but I couldn't find anything. Anyone have a clue as to what/who I'm talking about? Because I'd like to know what my teammates were talking about because frankly I had no clue haha.
On March 25 2015 12:43 Frudgey wrote: Has anyone heard of vvvortic? I was playing against a person named vvvvvvvvvvvortic and everyone on my team started to go giddy once they figured out who he was.
I did some Google searches but I couldn't find anything. Anyone have a clue as to what/who I'm talking about? Because I'd like to know what my teammates were talking about because frankly I had no clue haha.
On March 25 2015 09:07 Goumindong wrote: So ignoring these ryze buffs for a bit. Why not triforce ryze? It is what he was originally intended to be used for. And his kit does lead naturally to use the early power of a sheen as well as the mana on many tanky items. You need about 300 AP to make Lichbane be an equivalent damage boost (minus Pen) and that means you can build catalyst into Righteus Glory instead of Rod(or hell, get both).
It just seems like Rod/Glory, Triforce, Heart would make one hell of a sticky tanky ryze with a lot better consistent damage due to the Triforce procs than you would likely get from AP/Pen etc
Nobody's ever going to get triforce over seraph's. You need seraph's, RoA, frozen heart and boots. At that point, you'll either need void staff because people will have MR, or you'll need some MR yourself. There's just no room for triforce.
Sure, but Seraphs takes a long time to charge and leaves you with a big power trough when you're still charging tear. Especially if you want to get RoA charged in any decent time. Sheen/Triforce gives nearly as much damage as Seraphs without the weak build up*. Plus it gives other nice stats like move speed/health etc which help you stick to enemies and continue to do damage.
*No, really. Seraphs will add about 199 damage on a QWE (one bounce, level 18, fully stacked rod, no other mana) from AP and 110 from mana = 310. Triforce adds 40.5 from AP, 30 from AD (ignoring crit chance), 27.5 from mana and 212 from the proc= 310. (assuming one proc per rotation, if you get more triforce pulls way ahead)
Even if you're missing 1,387 mana, seraph's will give a 400 health shield, which far outperforms triforce's health. If according to your calculations triforce does the same damage for 1,000 more gold and has a worse build path and most of the damage is AD, I'm not really sure what your argument for it is. Yeah, you can get off multiple procs in a fight, but you'll also get off more of your abilities as well.
On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
I played a ton of Karma support last season, so I tried her out a bit top as well. She's not bad. Can really bully a lot of match ups and is fairly safe. She doesn't scale too great into the late game, but if you do well in lane your mid game is pretty strong.
Ryze just has a shitty AA. I'm sure some kind of hybrid like old top kassadin could go TF, but the appeal of Ryze is that he is tanky with huge damage, but easy to keep down with ganks and delayed power spikes.
Tried my first game as Bard vs easy AI. Had two feeding levelling bots and one effectively disconnected-by-lag player, so I had to build damage to win the game. I tried Luden's because I figured it would be alright waveclear on a champ with none. It actually looks neat with bard's abilities! It didn't help and was basically crap, though. It procs off of Bard's meeps, though, which was kind of neat.
Also, if you can ever get to this point, Gunblade/Nashors/LichBane/Ludens/DCap/Mobos Bard is a really fun assassin vs underlevelled bots. You can't win by too much though or you'll accidentally end the game and not get enough money, so this was probably a once in a lifetime experience.
I was just inspired to play a karma top game by this. I was laning vs wukong and his duo partner jungle zac who literally flash ulted me in lane on every cd. Then after lane they would both flash ult me pretty much every time they were in range. I went 1-8 and we won the game because they kept diving me like morons and getting cleaned up by the rest of my team. their katarina also went 21-6. They flash dove me one last time and everyone got cleaned up leaving only our jayce and jinx, who pushed through 4 towers and won the game. Damn what a throw.
Yeah, there is no really great itemization for Karma top. You need CDR, manaregen, and survivability, but do no damage if you go tanky. Its basically impossible to get all of them, so you are just really vulnerable to allins as you very carefully lane with your fragile ass morellonomicon build.
If only there was like a ROA but with CDR instead of mana.
On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
Bjergsen got a penta as Karma mid at one point, don't remember the tourney/league.
Karma top has been a terror against melee champs since the rework, if you get a good ult E in a teamfight it basically resets your ult cd on the spot
Semifinals for Spring split 2014 playoffs. Bjerg played her a few times in the Spring split last year.
That's a good question though, why don't people play Karma mid? Her waveclear is pretty poor, but she's a pretty strong lane bully and probably isn't bad against assassins with her shield/speedup/self heal.
On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
Bjergsen got a penta as Karma mid at one point, don't remember the tourney/league.
Karma top has been a terror against melee champs since the rework, if you get a good ult E in a teamfight it basically resets your ult cd on the spot
Semifinals for Spring split 2014 playoffs. Bjerg played her a few times in the Spring split last year.
That's a good question though, why don't people play Karma mid? Her waveclear is pretty poor, but she's a pretty strong lane bully and probably isn't bad against assassins with her shield/speedup/self heal.
Sometimes champs just don't catch on. Pros honestly don't try a lot of stuff, or just try it and dismiss it offhand because it takes time/skill to make it work. Then one person will popularize it and then everyone copies them.
On March 25 2015 09:07 Goumindong wrote: So ignoring these ryze buffs for a bit. Why not triforce ryze? It is what he was originally intended to be used for. And his kit does lead naturally to use the early power of a sheen as well as the mana on many tanky items. You need about 300 AP to make Lichbane be an equivalent damage boost (minus Pen) and that means you can build catalyst into Righteus Glory instead of Rod(or hell, get both).
It just seems like Rod/Glory, Triforce, Heart would make one hell of a sticky tanky ryze with a lot better consistent damage due to the Triforce procs than you would likely get from AP/Pen etc
Nobody's ever going to get triforce over seraph's. You need seraph's, RoA, frozen heart and boots. At that point, you'll either need void staff because people will have MR, or you'll need some MR yourself. There's just no room for triforce.
Sure, but Seraphs takes a long time to charge and leaves you with a big power trough when you're still charging tear. Especially if you want to get RoA charged in any decent time. Sheen/Triforce gives nearly as much damage as Seraphs without the weak build up*. Plus it gives other nice stats like move speed/health etc which help you stick to enemies and continue to do damage.
*No, really. Seraphs will add about 199 damage on a QWE (one bounce, level 18, fully stacked rod, no other mana) from AP and 110 from mana = 310. Triforce adds 40.5 from AP, 30 from AD (ignoring crit chance), 27.5 from mana and 212 from the proc= 310. (assuming one proc per rotation, if you get more triforce pulls way ahead)
Even if you're missing 1,387 mana, seraph's will give a 400 health shield, which far outperforms triforce's health. If according to your calculations triforce does the same damage for 1,000 more gold and has a worse build path and most of the damage is AD, I'm not really sure what your argument for it is. Yeah, you can get off multiple procs in a fight, but you'll also get off more of your abilities as well.
Only if your rod is fully charged, you get one auto attack per QWE and your "more spells" continues that progression, the bonus move speed doesn't make it easier for you to continue an engage, you can't leverage the early power of the sheen, you don't crit...
There are a lot of things you trade to have the lategame damage of a triforce and potentially a large shield.
On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
Bjergsen got a penta as Karma mid at one point, don't remember the tourney/league.
Karma top has been a terror against melee champs since the rework, if you get a good ult E in a teamfight it basically resets your ult cd on the spot
Semifinals for Spring split 2014 playoffs. Bjerg played her a few times in the Spring split last year.
That's a good question though, why don't people play Karma mid? Her waveclear is pretty poor, but she's a pretty strong lane bully and probably isn't bad against assassins with her shield/speedup/self heal.
Because if you're going to play someone with a shield, speed up, and self heal you will play Lulu, who also has strong wave clear
On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
Bjergsen got a penta as Karma mid at one point, don't remember the tourney/league.
Karma top has been a terror against melee champs since the rework, if you get a good ult E in a teamfight it basically resets your ult cd on the spot
Semifinals for Spring split 2014 playoffs. Bjerg played her a few times in the Spring split last year.
That's a good question though, why don't people play Karma mid? Her waveclear is pretty poor, but she's a pretty strong lane bully and probably isn't bad against assassins with her shield/speedup/self heal.
Because if you're going to play someone with a shield, speed up, and self heal you will play Lulu, who also has strong wave clear
Karma does a lot more damage than lulu, and actually Karma has quite good waveclear, you just spam more. Mantra E is well over 1k shield over your whole team, a 60% speed boost, and 300+.6AP damage. Lulu aint got shit on that.
On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
Bjergsen got a penta as Karma mid at one point, don't remember the tourney/league.
Karma top has been a terror against melee champs since the rework, if you get a good ult E in a teamfight it basically resets your ult cd on the spot
Semifinals for Spring split 2014 playoffs. Bjerg played her a few times in the Spring split last year.
That's a good question though, why don't people play Karma mid? Her waveclear is pretty poor, but she's a pretty strong lane bully and probably isn't bad against assassins with her shield/speedup/self heal.
Because if you're going to play someone with a shield, speed up, and self heal you will play Lulu, who also has strong wave clear
Karma does a lot more damage than lulu, and actually Karma has quite good waveclear, you just spam more. Mantra E is well over 1k shield over your whole team, a 60% speed boost, and 300+.6AP damage. Lulu aint got shit on that.
Aoe knock up (with HP), pass through nuke (that can be extended), amped autos, and everything generally being stronger on one target
On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
Bjergsen got a penta as Karma mid at one point, don't remember the tourney/league.
Karma top has been a terror against melee champs since the rework, if you get a good ult E in a teamfight it basically resets your ult cd on the spot
Semifinals for Spring split 2014 playoffs. Bjerg played her a few times in the Spring split last year.
That's a good question though, why don't people play Karma mid? Her waveclear is pretty poor, but she's a pretty strong lane bully and probably isn't bad against assassins with her shield/speedup/self heal.
Because if you're going to play someone with a shield, speed up, and self heal you will play Lulu, who also has strong wave clear
Karma does a lot more damage than lulu, and actually Karma has quite good waveclear, you just spam more. Mantra E is well over 1k shield over your whole team, a 60% speed boost, and 300+.6AP damage. Lulu aint got shit on that.
The AoE shield is ~half of the singular shield. It's still a good ability no doubt, but Locket, Sivir ult, Shurelya's cointhing, and Righteous Glory are pretty common atm so it's not very unique in it's utility despite being perhaps the largest selling point of Karma.
On March 25 2015 11:55 MidnightGladius wrote: Has any pro team ever run Karma as a solo laner top or mid? I could see it working, if you had no intention of being relevant past mid-game and only intended to support Kog/minions thereafter. From a utility perspective it's a big step back from Lulu, though; the shields have roughly equal values, but you miss out on Wild Growth, and Karma's speed-up doesn't scale with AP like Whimsy does.
EDIT: Having learned that Karma's W procs her passive multiple times, I'm now tempted to try W-max top Karma to just ruin some poor melee's day.
Bjergsen got a penta as Karma mid at one point, don't remember the tourney/league.
Karma top has been a terror against melee champs since the rework, if you get a good ult E in a teamfight it basically resets your ult cd on the spot
Semifinals for Spring split 2014 playoffs. Bjerg played her a few times in the Spring split last year.
That's a good question though, why don't people play Karma mid? Her waveclear is pretty poor, but she's a pretty strong lane bully and probably isn't bad against assassins with her shield/speedup/self heal.
Because if you're going to play someone with a shield, speed up, and self heal you will play Lulu, who also has strong wave clear
Karma does a lot more damage than lulu, and actually Karma has quite good waveclear, you just spam more. Mantra E is well over 1k shield over your whole team, a 60% speed boost, and 300+.6AP damage. Lulu aint got shit on that.
The AoE shield is ~half of the singular shield. It's still a good ability no doubt, but Locket, Sivir ult, Shurelya's cointhing, and Righteous Glory are pretty common atm so it's not very unique in it's utility despite being perhaps the largest selling point of Karma.
Karma was a crazy fun duelist in URF, though.
Apparently the AoE shield was coming out at the full Mantra E damage, unnecessary nerf fixing that bug imo
EPT
