EPT[Patch 5.5] Bard General Discussion - Page 50
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On March 25 2015 05:30 sob3k wrote: The difference is this: 1. Old veigar farming minigame was largely a noob trap, it was better to bully and push opponents around. 2. Old veigar was an assassin. You'd make an picks, and try to snipe high value enemies. New veigar is not an assassin. In the same way Nasus isn't an assassin, even if they can explode a carry, they can't reliably reach value targets. They are reliant on just laying down some soft teamfight CC (new event horizon is a soft CC), and doing as much damage to whatever they can. You can check out his winrate over time, its pretty interesting. http://lolbuilder.net/nasus Starts at 55% at 20min, goes down all the way until 50min, then goes back up to 55% all the way at 60min. Too bad nobody plays him Diamond or above so there are too few long games for high ELO to look at. http://lolbuilder.net/veigar Veigar starts at 37% at 20 min and just goes up the longer the game goes on. Of course he just has an abysmal winrate currently. "noob trap" is just a perspective on the game. If veigar could bully players around, people would bully players around with veigar but they cant because he sucks in lane an "assassin" needs mobility, veigar has zero mobility he reies solely on lack of enemy vision and flash or team support to catch anyone both of your claims about veigar pretty much rely on playing against terrible opponents whereas you yourself as you stated don't suck giving you an unfair advantage | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
But a bunch of people would just spam Q then be sad once they're oom. Same reason I'd beat Renekton with Jax or Irelia because people would let me throw some autos at them and only try to fight when their cooldowns are up instead of abusing his sustain and burst and the fact that each auto traded puts me lower and thus is better for them. I mean you're the first one to say that Nasus should Q his lane opponent to keep him on his toes or even bully him instead of cowering and passively stack it up, as if 3 stacks were more important than 100 less HP for your lane opponent at level 4. So you know exactly how people get the wrong idea with Veigar's Q mechanic, right? | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:26 Slayer91 wrote: "noob trap" is just a perspective on the game. If veigar could bully players around, people would bully players around with veigar but they cant because he sucks in lane an "assassin" needs mobility, veigar has zero mobility he reies solely on lack of enemy vision and flash or team support to catch anyone both of your claims about veigar pretty much rely on playing against terrible opponents whereas you yourself as you stated don't suck giving you an unfair advantage wasn't that challenger veigar player pretty much saying, you should spam your q's to harass, not to get AP with it? so I dunno what you're talking about it... | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:42 Slusher wrote: you mean DaBox? yeah, in his AMA, he said that too many veigar players fell for the trap to use his Q to farm, when you really should be using it to harass. http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1xb3rr/hi_im_dabox_i_got_to_top_10_challenger_playing/cf9srak Here it is Moving on to playstyle. The #1 tip I can give you is to HARASS with your Q and NOT farm with it. Farming with your q is a really poor choice as it enables your opponent to harass you when your q is down and you have no way to trade back besides autoing. Not only will this make you recall faster but you will lose on creeps because your opponent has the ability to zone you while your only harass spell is down. When you harass with it, your opponent will stay behind his minions because Veigar actually does quite a bit of damage with his Q and autos. Veigar can be played aggressively instead of passively and it is the better choice. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
its basically playing annie with a ranged stun to escape ganks | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
we're talking about a guy that considered Veigar into Zed, even that said he's borderline quit the game after the nerfs, I think he's played like 10 games since the veigar changes, none on veigar | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:46 Slusher wrote: he did actually say that but he had a pretty skewed vision of Veigar, I guess being near 100% accurate with smart cast event horizon changes a lot of match ups that said he's borderline quit the game after the nerfs, I think he's played like 10 games since the veigar changes, none on veigar thanks rito. this probably the biggest cockup riot's done to a champ since giving Riven hotfix patch that turned her into a goddess of bruisers. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Of course he could still shove all day then harass you while you farm under tower with his W safety to avoid ganks, but the same way Veigar could be quite brutal for LB, he had the tools to not be as vulnerable to Zed as other immobile mages. The point was also that Veigar's Q was point'n'click: you could hide behind minions to trade in match-ups with collision skillshots, and abuse the low cd to harass. It's not a trade if you Q them once or twice more while they wait for their cooldowns to come back up. Of course if you're against pass-through stuff that doesn't lose damage doing so, like Xerath or Ahri, it's another issue... | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:44 Slayer91 wrote: it's not a trap though you have to outplay everyone to use q to harass its not a matter of strategy its basically playing annie with a ranged stun to escape ganks And far higher effective range? Also you say that like the ranged aoe stun is a trivial difference; it's almost like having its reliability removed single handedly stopped the hype train that was support Veigar, since an 850 range skillshot would've arguably been preferable in that role. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:03 Alaric wrote: When Zed ults you you could 100% stun him previously, though, and if you max W second (or even put another point in it pre-6), you cut on a bunch of the mark's damage (and you can walk out of E range) with the stun duration. Of course he could still shove all day then harass you while you farm under tower with his W safety to avoid ganks, but the same way Veigar could be quite brutal for LB, he had the tools to not be as vulnerable to Zed as other immobile mages. The point was also that Veigar's Q was point'n'click: you could hide behind minions to trade in match-ups with collision skillshots, and abuse the low cd to harass. It's not a trade if you Q them once or twice more while they wait for their cooldowns to come back up. Of course if you're against pass-through stuff that doesn't lose damage doing so, like Xerath or Ahri, it's another issue... I understand the concept I'm just saying when you have as many games on a hero as he did it changes your perspective on what is good and what is bad mabye the zed one was too simple | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
The whole point of (old) Veigar was to farm DFG -> start one shotting people from elvel ~6 - 16. The further it goes the worse he got, and farming Q for the first 30 minutes of the game squanders prime time when he can kill other people. Excpet now Riot wants him to be a late game hero except he just sucks early mid and late now instead of just super early and late. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On March 25 2015 04:38 TheHumanSensation wrote: I don't like learning on Graves, or telling other people to learn with Graves, as buckshot incentives close-range fighting and E-Q-R'ing directly into the middle of a fight makes me feel too powerful to play well and do consistent damage without dying etc. Graves has all the tools to play well in team fights (Q/R for burst damage, E for reposition) while also having a lot of power in auto attacking (passive adds up to 30 armor/mr!). Its true that buckshot kind of incents close range fighting/ E-Q-R into the back line. But i find that its better to have the right tools and potentially misuse them than to not have the tools. I mean, who else. Corki, Lucian are decent contenders. But lucian isn't as strong as he used to be and corki requires good ability weaving. Cait is right out because you absolutely have to win lane and be good at auto attacking. Jinx, Sivir, Kalista? Even more skill dependent, shorter range, less burst. Draven? Right out. Kog'Maw? Positioning too important. Ezreal? Not even really an ADC, more of an AP who builds AD. Plus he lanes poorly(can't harass through creeps), is super item dependent (needs to be able to have muramana/triforce or botrk finished so he can E,auto,Q,auto, (botrk active) in order to dump the muramana procs), and has a massive weakpoint while he is building up the tear. Quinn? don't make me laugh That leaves Ashe, Varus, Graves, Miss Fortune, and Twitch. Ashe we have dicussed to death, Varus is probably similar to her due to the AoE team fight ult. MF imo worse than varus due to a harder to use ult. But is still up there. And twitch plays more like an assassin so that is decent if you can survive laning(but might not actually teach you to play AD) I would say that, of those listed, Ashe and Graves are top. Both have good laning. Graves as burst and kite tools. Ashe has burst and fallback gold. Then MF (plus her MS passive makes it really easy to side lane farm without falling behind which a lot of new AD's have problems with) and Varus. Then twitch. On March 25 2015 05:08 Scip wrote: the first cast of LB distortion is a dash and does get stopped a Rammus buff? A Rammus buff. Ok. Ironically this makes the ability actually slightly worse as a defensive ability against LB. it used to be the case where you could dump E as LB came in, and so LB would land right on top of you stunned for 2.5 seconds. Stopping her actually makes it a bit harder to kill her since she may well be at the edge of her range. edit: Nice quinn buffs. Though i have a feeling the auto attack reset won't do anything on e anyway because the animation time was so long that if you had a bit of attack speed (or W) your auto would reset by the time you landed anyway | ||
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