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On August 06 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 11:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 06 2014 11:32 zodde wrote:It's all Elo hell discussion in disguise anyways, can you please stop arguing whether or not you're stuck in Elo hell (or if it even exists in the first place) and just discuss the game itself? Edit: Why don't you discuss the fact that Riot announced that Viktor is in line for a gameplay update? What is your proposal for solving his problems, etc? https://support.leagueoflegends.com/entries/40116190-Champion-Update-Schedule i don't necessarily think he needs it. so i'll wait to see how they "improve him". They are not going to improve him. He is fine as it is. The problem is that he has only 5 item slots. If Riot can solve that problem and make him "feel" better, it's mission accomplished.
Eh. He is a burst mage who gets an item that is nearly as strong as Deathcap for 1000 gold. The slots aren't the issue(he was going to build damage there anyway) the gold/slot efficiency of the other options are the issue. Plus the fact that his laser is hard to play with due to its smartcast behavior.
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And that he isn't that good...
Q is too slow on the shield, W would be great in a different meta (and is good now), e is actually both great and easy to use (contrary to popular excuses, I rumble a lot), but his ult is trash. Good damage, but a bad concept.
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On August 06 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 11:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 06 2014 11:32 zodde wrote:It's all Elo hell discussion in disguise anyways, can you please stop arguing whether or not you're stuck in Elo hell (or if it even exists in the first place) and just discuss the game itself? Edit: Why don't you discuss the fact that Riot announced that Viktor is in line for a gameplay update? What is your proposal for solving his problems, etc? https://support.leagueoflegends.com/entries/40116190-Champion-Update-Schedule i don't necessarily think he needs it. so i'll wait to see how they "improve him". They are not going to improve him. He is fine as it is. The problem is that he has only 5 item slots. If Riot can solve that problem and make him "feel" better, it's mission accomplished.
Put the Hex Core into the trinket slot.
GG EZ HIRE ME RITO
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On August 06 2014 13:33 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2014 11:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 06 2014 11:32 zodde wrote:It's all Elo hell discussion in disguise anyways, can you please stop arguing whether or not you're stuck in Elo hell (or if it even exists in the first place) and just discuss the game itself? Edit: Why don't you discuss the fact that Riot announced that Viktor is in line for a gameplay update? What is your proposal for solving his problems, etc? https://support.leagueoflegends.com/entries/40116190-Champion-Update-Schedule i don't necessarily think he needs it. so i'll wait to see how they "improve him". They are not going to improve him. He is fine as it is. The problem is that he has only 5 item slots. If Riot can solve that problem and make him "feel" better, it's mission accomplished. Put the Hex Core into the trinket slot. GG EZ HIRE ME RITO
Shit, I think I got to reddit while on TL by mistake.
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On August 06 2014 13:34 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 13:33 xes wrote:On August 06 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2014 11:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 06 2014 11:32 zodde wrote:It's all Elo hell discussion in disguise anyways, can you please stop arguing whether or not you're stuck in Elo hell (or if it even exists in the first place) and just discuss the game itself? Edit: Why don't you discuss the fact that Riot announced that Viktor is in line for a gameplay update? What is your proposal for solving his problems, etc? https://support.leagueoflegends.com/entries/40116190-Champion-Update-Schedule i don't necessarily think he needs it. so i'll wait to see how they "improve him". They are not going to improve him. He is fine as it is. The problem is that he has only 5 item slots. If Riot can solve that problem and make him "feel" better, it's mission accomplished. Put the Hex Core into the trinket slot. GG EZ HIRE ME RITO Shit, I think I got to reddit while on TL by mistake.
At least on reddit irrelevant conversations and people who are wrong about things they keep pretending to know about get downvoted.
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Even just allowing him to jam an extra NLR's worth of AP (128ish instead of 48 at 18) into that slot would make him feel a ton better.
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I'm kinda happy that Faker pulled out AP kog. I've been playing it a ton and I think its still really strong.
Waveclear is top tier instant after earlygame, poke is fantastic, ult cost not actually an issue. Mega ridiculous skillcap especially after lichbane.
only kinda happy because hopefully he isn't nerfed now..
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On August 06 2014 14:04 sob3k wrote:
I'm kinda happy that Faker pulled out AP kog. I've been playing it a ton and I think its still really strong.
Waveclear is top tier instant after earlygame, poke is fantastic, ult cost not actually an issue. Mega ridiculous skillcap especially after lichbane.
only kinda happy because hopefully he isn't nerfed now..
too late unless they reverted PBE change, they were targeting his ult. i dont keep up with this stuff though
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On August 06 2014 14:01 sylverfyre wrote:
Even just allowing him to jam an extra NLR's worth of AP (128ish instead of 48 at 18) into that slot would make him feel a ton better.
99 at level 18 with death. Plus the passive which is better than dcap for his e.
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On August 06 2014 13:33 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2014 11:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 06 2014 11:32 zodde wrote:It's all Elo hell discussion in disguise anyways, can you please stop arguing whether or not you're stuck in Elo hell (or if it even exists in the first place) and just discuss the game itself? Edit: Why don't you discuss the fact that Riot announced that Viktor is in line for a gameplay update? What is your proposal for solving his problems, etc? https://support.leagueoflegends.com/entries/40116190-Champion-Update-Schedule i don't necessarily think he needs it. so i'll wait to see how they "improve him". They are not going to improve him. He is fine as it is. The problem is that he has only 5 item slots. If Riot can solve that problem and make him "feel" better, it's mission accomplished. Put the Hex Core into the trinket slot. GG EZ HIRE ME RITO
haha. they aren't even going to do that. if its a gameplay rework, he's going to be drastically changed.
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On August 06 2014 14:19 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 13:33 xes wrote:On August 06 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2014 11:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 06 2014 11:32 zodde wrote:It's all Elo hell discussion in disguise anyways, can you please stop arguing whether or not you're stuck in Elo hell (or if it even exists in the first place) and just discuss the game itself? Edit: Why don't you discuss the fact that Riot announced that Viktor is in line for a gameplay update? What is your proposal for solving his problems, etc? https://support.leagueoflegends.com/entries/40116190-Champion-Update-Schedule i don't necessarily think he needs it. so i'll wait to see how they "improve him". They are not going to improve him. He is fine as it is. The problem is that he has only 5 item slots. If Riot can solve that problem and make him "feel" better, it's mission accomplished. Put the Hex Core into the trinket slot. GG EZ HIRE ME RITO haha. they aren't even going to do that. if its a gameplay rework, he's going to be drastically changed.
not necessarily. gameplay rework does not imply he will be completely revamped or drastically changed. It just means he will get a balance update bigger than just Riot fudging numbers. His core kit and playstyle could remain the same if Riot chooses to let it.
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I've played a ton of Viktor to good success. Clearly his non-death augs need buffs. His only choice is death which doesn't actually change his gameplay at all, but just makes his numbers higher.
As for viktor, his kit just isn't very cohesive imo.
He's really designed to be a sustained mage kiting in and out while throwing Q's, stunning enemies and all this while his ult burns them (Yellow aug playstyle). But he doesn't actually play like this because he's too fragile and his shield/CC isn't nearly enough to make it worth getting in close when you can just lazer from 1000 range safely.
I don't really know how to fix that.
maybe have
Yellow
Q shields for a lot and hastes you
W deploys and stuns instantly at your feet
E has worse range but a DOT burn
aug gives tenacity? HP and HP5?
Red
Q has no shield but increased range and CD
W as it is now
E has current range and damage/ratio boost
aug gives large AP, MP5?
Blue
Q bonus shield and reduces target damage
W has extended range
E shorter range but leaves slowing line behind it (and reduces MR/armor on line?)
aug gives Armor/MR, CDR, HP, MP5?
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On August 06 2014 14:23 Ryuu314 wrote:
not necessarily. gameplay rework does not imply he will be completely revamped or drastically changed. It just means he will get a balance update bigger than just Riot fudging numbers. His core kit and playstyle could remain the same if Riot chooses to let it.
Thats almost never happened? i think kat might be the only one? but i don't really remember pre rework kat anymore. i don't think riot's proven themselves enough to get benefit of the doubt.
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On August 06 2014 14:00 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 13:34 Gahlo wrote:On August 06 2014 13:33 xes wrote:On August 06 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2014 11:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 06 2014 11:32 zodde wrote:It's all Elo hell discussion in disguise anyways, can you please stop arguing whether or not you're stuck in Elo hell (or if it even exists in the first place) and just discuss the game itself? Edit: Why don't you discuss the fact that Riot announced that Viktor is in line for a gameplay update? What is your proposal for solving his problems, etc? https://support.leagueoflegends.com/entries/40116190-Champion-Update-Schedule i don't necessarily think he needs it. so i'll wait to see how they "improve him". They are not going to improve him. He is fine as it is. The problem is that he has only 5 item slots. If Riot can solve that problem and make him "feel" better, it's mission accomplished. Put the Hex Core into the trinket slot. GG EZ HIRE ME RITO Shit, I think I got to reddit while on TL by mistake. At least on reddit irrelevant conversations and people who are wrong about things they keep pretending to know about get downvoted.
On Reddit, as long as you sound like you know what you're talking about people will upvote, even if you're completely wrong.
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On August 06 2014 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 14:00 xes wrote:On August 06 2014 13:34 Gahlo wrote:On August 06 2014 13:33 xes wrote:On August 06 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:On August 06 2014 11:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 06 2014 11:32 zodde wrote:It's all Elo hell discussion in disguise anyways, can you please stop arguing whether or not you're stuck in Elo hell (or if it even exists in the first place) and just discuss the game itself? Edit: Why don't you discuss the fact that Riot announced that Viktor is in line for a gameplay update? What is your proposal for solving his problems, etc? https://support.leagueoflegends.com/entries/40116190-Champion-Update-Schedule i don't necessarily think he needs it. so i'll wait to see how they "improve him". They are not going to improve him. He is fine as it is. The problem is that he has only 5 item slots. If Riot can solve that problem and make him "feel" better, it's mission accomplished. Put the Hex Core into the trinket slot. GG EZ HIRE ME RITO Shit, I think I got to reddit while on TL by mistake. At least on reddit irrelevant conversations and people who are wrong about things they keep pretending to know about get downvoted. On Reddit, as long as you sound like you know what you're talking about people will upvote, even if you're completely wrong.
unless its also against the hivemind. even if completely correct.
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On August 06 2014 14:27 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 14:23 Ryuu314 wrote:
not necessarily. gameplay rework does not imply he will be completely revamped or drastically changed. It just means he will get a balance update bigger than just Riot fudging numbers. His core kit and playstyle could remain the same if Riot chooses to let it. Thats almost never happened? i think kat might be the only one? but i don't really remember pre rework kat anymore. i don't think riot's proven themselves enough to get benefit of the doubt.
i can think of olaf, sivir, and zed off the top of my head. Olaf is arguably in a better spot now than he was pre-rework, post-nerf and the rework didn't really change much about him. Sivir has fallen out of the meta, but the her rework didn't really change her core gameplay. The Zed ult change was also called a "gameplay update."
to be honest, most reworks don't really change champions super drastically to the point where their playstyle is completely different. I mean, even the Mao rework wasn't really super extreme. It was basically just mana buffs and a huge qol change on his ult.
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I'd just love Viktor to be able to buy all upgrades, in any order.
IT gives a 3k item that would ad:
3 AP/Level
10% CDR
45 AP
220 HP
6/6 HP/Mana regen.
I don't see anything objectionable about that at all honestly. But I'm not a mid player. It's not like it's free.
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Did they change the shop interface in the ninja update?
It's weird for me now T-T
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On August 06 2014 15:11 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 14:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 06 2014 14:23 Ryuu314 wrote:
not necessarily. gameplay rework does not imply he will be completely revamped or drastically changed. It just means he will get a balance update bigger than just Riot fudging numbers. His core kit and playstyle could remain the same if Riot chooses to let it. Thats almost never happened? i think kat might be the only one? but i don't really remember pre rework kat anymore. i don't think riot's proven themselves enough to get benefit of the doubt. i can think of olaf, sivir, and zed off the top of my head. Olaf is arguably in a better spot now than he was pre-rework, post-nerf and the rework didn't really change much about him. Sivir has fallen out of the meta, but the her rework didn't really change her core gameplay. The Zed ult change was also called a "gameplay update." to be honest, most reworks don't really change champions super drastically to the point where their playstyle is completely different. I mean, even the Mao rework wasn't really super extreme. It was basically just mana buffs and a huge qol change on his ult.
is he? tbh i preferred prework nerfed to shit olaf than current one, especially now when theres almost no true tank because adcs melt everything late game, while we speak about auto attack animation fix i wish they did it for vlad too his current one is atrocious
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People should stop with the slot efficiency and Augment: Death's strength and whatnot.
It's 45 AP. 54 he'd get no matter what he bought, Death augment grants 45 AP. The slot itself is indeed worth 99 AP at level 18 though, but less initially (haven't done the math for what's better at levels 7-9-11 between augment and deathcap, augment better for E obv. but not for Q and ult).
Slot-wise it's not that bad, Viktor is not a "I play with 5 items" champion.
However you have to take into account that before the augment his E is very underwhelming, which is another part of the problem.
Frankly the augment seems like a gimmick anyway, there's not enough difference between the playstyles no matter what you pick (which is also why death augment is always better because it's the best for the only actually decent playstyle).
I wish Riot had gone way crazier with the whole "evolving" thing and the differences it creates in how he plays out, because the concept is very interesting but the implementation ends up very tame, with underwhelming base numbers to boot.
On August 06 2014 13:12 cLutZ wrote:
And that he isn't that good...
Q is too slow on the shield, W would be great in a different meta (and is good now), e is actually both great and easy to use (contrary to popular excuses, I rumble a lot), but his ult is trash. Good damage, but a bad concept.
You can't compare the 1700 range and cast time on Rumble's ult with the 540 range and theorical 0-point cast on Viktor's E. playing around max range, even once you get used to its unusual value, can be annoying (also if you try to only drag a little bit, or to cast on yourself (typically when someone jumps you and you try to burst them) the drags tends to not be registered and it doesn't cast).
His ult would be fine if it didn't get utterly buttfucked by virtue of relying on pet control. On paper, the ult will go where you click, will follow a unit if you click on it, and will also automatically follow the target of the initial cast.
In reality it only follows the initial target if it's the only one in the AoE upon cast (and even then not always), it sometimes stops moving altogether, and the shitty/buggy default behaviour compounds on the ult as a whole because if you get cc'd as you cast/right after you cast it's enough to waste most of the damage unless the enemy team sits under it.
It's not about the damage from his ult either. The bugs and awful pet control make it deal a lot less than its numbers in reality, but even without that he has other issues:
- he struggles against assassins because apart from high armour growth he's vulnerable (everything is delayed: shield on Q, cc on W (even the slow), damage on R and augmented E, so he doesn't do well versus burst)
- he struggles against super tanky frontlines because he's a teamfighting burst mage with long-ish cooldowns (Ryze, Ziggs, etc. can whittle you down, if he uses E on that Shyvana/Renekton/Zac he loses a bunch of usefulness and he can't afford to ult the frontline).
- he's short ranged ('cept for E but look at its cooldown and mana cost), it's 0K in the midgame with skirmishes and less dps so he can walk in range or flank (esp. if he can 100-0 people), but later on he's more likely to get bursted down than to get in range of the backline to ER it. Stuff like Ziggs or Lux can reach the enemy carries through a frontline (see above point), Viktor not as much. Plus with popular carries being either mobile (Lucian pre-changes) or super long-ranged (Tristana, Kog, Cait/Jinx previously), it's super hard to get to them.
- he's a burst mage, who've had it worse since s3, and a lane bully, same with all the added lane sustain.
Also note that he can't really afford to get a grail: Ziggs doesn't care for example because spammy shit, LB didn't care because super high damage, but Viktor has long cooldowns and meh base damage (for someone with only 2 damaging abilities without a no-cd one) so he really wants his augment asap.
There are other problems, like the fact that anything he can do, someone else will do better (his zone control is bleh because periodic damage too low to really fight off sustain from a BT or Hydra, and anything poke related there's cancer-Ziggs and Anivia in the game), but they touch the other champions, not him only.
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EPT
