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On July 05 2014 14:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 14:03 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
I take back any of the things I said about Zac jungle being solid. While he's obviously better now than he was recently he was still gutted too much many patches ago. If they either changed his ult back or rebuffed his E he'd be fine, but as it is he just isn't worth it. The other support/tanky junglers are better. I don't think new StoAG changes anything in regards to jungle meta. It doesn't make tanky junglers clear any faster than before, which was primarily the big problem. Building offensive jungle items, and offensive items meant no only did you get the same clear buff as old AG, you also got faster clear because of the fact you built offensive. They could have just as easily buffed AG's +bonus to monster dmg, and that would have solved a lot of the problems tanky junglers were having.
Well the buff to Zac's W was primarily what I'm talking about. It offered a much needed clear speed increase imo. However, even that + SotAG wasn't enough to make him solid and if peole want to play tanky jungler then there are better options out there.... even though I do wish Zac was solid.
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Honestly, Zac was never really that good of a jungler imo. He has crazy gank range with his E, but he really lacks CC and his early game damage isn't that good from the jungle. If he maxes Q first, he gets a pretty good slow and decent damage, but then he lacks the E range that sets him apart from other junglers. But if he maxes E, he lacks CC and damage. People tried jungling him when he came out and did ok, but he really excelled when people put him top.
Zac really excelled in the solo lane since it let him max Q first to be a threat early; plus by the time team fights break out he will have several levels in his E for strong engage.
On July 05 2014 12:35 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 12:09 Kinie wrote:
I think some other champs we might see come back to mid are Ahri and maybe Lissandra. The other mages that (in my eyes) are not there yet or aren't right for the meta include: Karthus, Malzahar, Annie, Vel'Koz, and Kat.
Personally I think LB's silence should have been moved to the chains, where it applies when the chains lock, to basically make the LBs want to stick in and have the chain proc again for the silence + snare (tradeoff being you need a boatload of MP for both cast + 2nd proc to apply the silence + snare, and you can't Zhonyas in the middle of the chain application to have it stick.) Yes, it would've made her a gimmicky champ, where if you don't get the chains to proc again she's worthless, but it still keeps the high skill cap there for the pros to try and eek out that last bit of damage before the enemy team blows them up. karthus will always be a niche pick. Overwhelming against the right team, but a lot of mid lane picks right now wreck him. Malz - No. Annie - Usable even now. Mostly problems against better teams who can play against instant 1k range hard initiate. Vel'koz - hasn't seen competitive play outside support, as a semi-troll pick. kat - Support changes hurt. No more squishy to get a free reset. No teams pick 5 squishies, and only a few pick 4. Liss - various issues. Kit favors top more than mid tbh. Ahri - Usable against certain picks.
Malz could potentially be a pretty good support if it weren't for his archaic mana costs. A 3 second aoe slow, plus a 2.5 second suppression is pretty good peels. Plus he does a decent amount of damage with his W and E even with low AP. I'm actually really confused why Riot hasn't really touched him in the past several years.
Vel'koz imo has a lot of potential. He's still pretty new and his kit doesn't instantly scream OP the way Braum's does. Plus, the metagame isn't really suited for him. He's more of a wombo combo guy.
Liss needs bug fixes up the wahzoo. Her ult is game-breakingly inconsistent at times. I also think Riot should make her E projectile faster or have longer range.
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On July 05 2014 15:05 Ryuu314 wrote:
Honestly, Zac was never really that good of a jungler imo. He has crazy gank range with his E, but he really lacks CC and his early game damage isn't that good from the jungle. If he maxes Q first, he gets a pretty good slow and decent damage, but then he lacks the E range that sets him apart from other junglers. But if he maxes E, he lacks CC and damage. People tried jungling him when he came out and did ok, but he really excelled when people put him top.
Zac really excelled in the solo lane since it let him max Q first to be a threat early; plus by the time team fights break out he will have several levels in his E for strong engage.
what
he has as much CC as Alistar lol
or more if you count a slow as CC, 2 knockups + a slow + %health damage, how does maxing E make you lack CC in any way?
what killed Zac was the tenacity loss on his ult, not because he "lacks cc"(he doesnt). The change to make his blobs fly like forever away so he cant just pick them up without moving was a huge change too. But don't get me wrong he's still a good character, and oen of my favorites at that
Played new Maokai, I like it, seems like youre missing the 30% damage increase so you wont be able to E+Q and kill small monsters anymore which is kinda annoying, and no Mr/L is pretty brutal too
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On July 05 2014 15:14 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 15:05 Ryuu314 wrote:
Honestly, Zac was never really that good of a jungler imo. He has crazy gank range with his E, but he really lacks CC and his early game damage isn't that good from the jungle. If he maxes Q first, he gets a pretty good slow and decent damage, but then he lacks the E range that sets him apart from other junglers. But if he maxes E, he lacks CC and damage. People tried jungling him when he came out and did ok, but he really excelled when people put him top.
Zac really excelled in the solo lane since it let him max Q first to be a threat early; plus by the time team fights break out he will have several levels in his E for strong engage. what he has as much CC as Alistar lol or more if you count a slow as CC, 2 knockups + a slow + %health damage, how does maxing E make you lack CC in any way? what killed Zac was the tenacity loss on his ult, not because he "lacks cc"(he doesnt). Played new Maokai, I like it, seems like youre missing the 30% damage increase so you wont be able to E+Q and kill small monsters anymore which is kinda annoying, and no Mr/L is pretty brutal too
Note how I said early game. Early on he definitely lacks CC.
If you max E, you will only have a pretty measly 20% slow from level 1 Q. E itself is only a 0.5 second knockback. Compare that to Alistar. Alistar's knockup is a full 1 second knockup that also stuns for another 1.5 seconds.
The tenacity removal sucked, but honestly wasn't that bad in terms of letting Zac be playable in competitive. Zac was still picked up a quite a lot post-tenacity removal because having a 1.5k range engage is insane, especially considering Oriana and Lulu (support) were super popular at the time. It was the passive changes that really fucked him. With his blobs flying so far away and being so easy to deny, Zac can't lane against a competent opponent since he will virtually always be out-traded due to the % hp cost on his abilities.
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United States3106 Posts
Zac and Ori still work well together as a wombo combo ball delivery system, as you just throw the ball on him before (or during) the E and just watch him wreck people while she R + W, as he can still W while jumping around and picking blobs up.
And as someone who did a ton of Zac jungle in s3, it was the tenacity removal on the ult that killed him, cause now he can be CCed/stunned/rooted during it and left there twiddling his thumbs and not bouncing on the enemy back line. The blob fly distance killed him in top, which is what it was meant to do. But once again, Riot doesn't know how to balance things and hit him too hard by removing the tenacity AND the blob change at the same time.
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On July 05 2014 15:33 Kinie wrote:
Zac and Ori still work well together as a wombo combo ball delivery system, as you just throw the ball on him before (or during) the E and just watch him wreck people while she R + W, as he can still W while jumping around and picking blobs up.
And as someone who did a ton of Zac jungle in s3, it was the tenacity removal on the ult that killed him, cause now he can be CCed/stunned/rooted during it and left there twiddling his thumbs and not bouncing on the enemy back line. The blob fly distance killed him in top, which is what it was meant to do. But once again, Riot doesn't know how to balance things and hit him too hard by removing the tenacity AND the blob change at the same time.
I really don't see how the tenacity removal killed Zac. Plenty of top tier bruisers don't have built in tenacity and do just fine. Getting to the backline is not a problem when you have a 1.5k range gap closer. E+R is a 1.5 second knockup and a 20% slow. His ult also gives a decent movespeed boost.
The tenacity removal came in the same patch as the second blob nerf that reduced the pickup radius from 100 to 25. Zac was already rapidly leaving the competitive champion pool prior to that patch after Riot tweaked his blob spawn behavior/distance to fly super fucking far away.
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On July 05 2014 15:40 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 15:33 Kinie wrote:
Zac and Ori still work well together as a wombo combo ball delivery system, as you just throw the ball on him before (or during) the E and just watch him wreck people while she R + W, as he can still W while jumping around and picking blobs up.
And as someone who did a ton of Zac jungle in s3, it was the tenacity removal on the ult that killed him, cause now he can be CCed/stunned/rooted during it and left there twiddling his thumbs and not bouncing on the enemy back line. The blob fly distance killed him in top, which is what it was meant to do. But once again, Riot doesn't know how to balance things and hit him too hard by removing the tenacity AND the blob change at the same time. I really don't see how the tenacity removal killed Zac. Plenty of top tier bruisers don't have built in tenacity and do just fine. Getting to the backline is not a problem when you have a 1.5k range gap closer. E+R is a 1.5 second knockup and a 20% slow. His ult also gives a decent movespeed boost. The tenacity removal came in the same patch as the second blob nerf that reduced the pickup radius from 100 to 25. Zac was already rapidly leaving the competitive champion pool prior to that patch after Riot tweaked his blob spawn behavior/distance to fly super fucking far away.
It depends on the bruiser you're talking about, but most characters have their CC front loaded, meaning what happens after they land their cc, doesn't really matter so much.
If you're getting stopped mid way through your ulti on Zac, then you're not getting the full value of what your ult could do.
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Zac doesnt lack CC and its definitely NOT why he's a bad jungler. What is this BS?
Wukong/Vi/Leesin/Evelynn/nameanotherjungler have such imba CC compared to zac pre and post 6 right.
In truth, his tenacity + blob nerfs were what did him in but they weren't that major and i think he's one of those "got tiny nerf, is now shit" victims, at least in the jungle. Meta changes + the blob nerfs make his top pretty difficult where the blobs distance has a lesser effect in the jungle.
But if you really want to have some fun, go buy zhonyas on zac and have some fun making golden goo, you can activate it basically anytime during skills.
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? I thought his ult only ccs the first time it hits a champion, just like wu kong ?
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On July 05 2014 17:29 Slusher wrote:
? I thought his ult only ccs the first time it hits a champion, just like wu kong ?
Correct.
As far as his nerfs; he started out as a god all around. He was insane in the jungle. One of the first nerfs they did was to his E though. I think they increased the CD and decreased the launch range + increased charge time on it. Then he got used top and got the further blob + ult nerfs to completely sink him. Obviously lots of the meta shifts didn't help either, as is the case with a lot of champions.
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Another update from low levels. in the last 20 games without bots purple has won. i imagine its because of the riot bias toward purple putting "better" players on purple. had a game where i was the only person with flash at lvl 13 on blue side everyone else was under 12, all of purple was level 17+. their wins were all above myself, the highest on my team. on average the other team had 3x the average wins of our team. in lvl 30 normals this doesn't matter too much, but damn, at low levels that means a lot.
Game is horribly balanced in low levels right now. between the bots and that nonsense in the few real games you get its silly. i've noticed when i'm on purple often the other team doesn't even have ignite available to them so everyone is running ghost heal. I wouldn't be surprised if the long term player growth is slowing. There are very few good games to be had at low levels, most of them are discouraging or abusive, or just plain frustrating at all the bots. even more discouraging, the average wait time for a game has been 5 minutes for me. i remembering my first account games would come almost instantly...
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11589 Posts
On July 05 2014 19:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Another update from low levels. in the last 20 games without bots purple has won. i imagine its because of the riot bias toward purple putting "better" players on purple. had a game where i was the only person with flash at lvl 13 on blue side everyone else was under 12, all of purple was level 17+. their wins were all above myself, the highest on my team. on average the other team had 3x the average wins of our team. in lvl 30 normals this doesn't matter too much, but damn, at low levels that means a lot.
Game is horribly balanced in low levels right now. between the bots and that nonsense in the few real games you get its silly. i've noticed when i'm on purple often the other team doesn't even have ignite available to them so everyone is running ghost heal. I wouldn't be surprised if the long term player growth is slowing. There are very few good games to be had at low levels, most of them are discouraging or abusive, or just plain frustrating at all the bots. even more discouraging, the average wait time for a game has been 5 minutes for me. i remembering my first account games would come almost instantly...
Well, league doesn't really have to attract more new players at this point, they simply have to retain the ones that do play. Hence why they've never changed the early level system, the early rune system, the imbalanced summoner unlocking mechanic, etc. Their game is free, they don't really care if you start playing it, they care if you keep playing it long enough to buy more champs/skins/etc. Of course it still appeals to the widest possible audience, but the strategy of Riot is solely devoted into keeping people playing their game.
You can see this in their design philosophy. They want the game to be easy mechanically so people don't quit because it's too hard. They want the game to be simple because complex systems turn away the casual gamer. They often change things based on how "unfun" something is to play against, because they don't want people to quit from being frustrated. Yet they attempt to appeal to the competitive player with ranked matchmaking, an esports scene that they support and market themselves, and an ever-changing pool of competitively viable champions maintained and updated by the patch/release/rework cycle.
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On July 05 2014 19:40 PrinceXizor wrote:
Another update from low levels. in the last 20 games without bots purple has won. i imagine its because of the riot bias toward purple putting "better" players on purple. had a game where i was the only person with flash at lvl 13 on blue side everyone else was under 12, all of purple was level 17+. their wins were all above myself, the highest on my team. on average the other team had 3x the average wins of our team. in lvl 30 normals this doesn't matter too much, but damn, at low levels that means a lot.
Game is horribly balanced in low levels right now. between the bots and that nonsense in the few real games you get its silly. i've noticed when i'm on purple often the other team doesn't even have ignite available to them so everyone is running ghost heal. I wouldn't be surprised if the long term player growth is slowing. There are very few good games to be had at low levels, most of them are discouraging or abusive, or just plain frustrating at all the bots. even more discouraging, the average wait time for a game has been 5 minutes for me. i remembering my first account games would come almost instantly...
Look on the bright side, you didn't run into D1/challenger level players while leveling up your smurf. Putting a level 23 with tier 1 runes against a level 30 D1 player isn't going to go well. Pretty much just lost lane every single time.
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Zac was utterly broken at first because the amount of tenacity is ult gave him made him basically cc immune. Because he also had the damage to back it up (seriously, did you take a look at the base damage on his ult and E before it was changed? Of course you max E in the jungle, with the cd reduction it made you clear faster than Q max anyway!), huge sustain, and other tools, he had everything (and more) than a typical tanky jungler had, and huge damage on top of it. He made the likes of Maokai and Nautilus obsolete by himself, in terms of peeling damage, clear speed and initiation.
The tenacity on his ult had to go. Sure you'll whine if Morgana Qs you during your ult but well not everyone has a 3s duration cc so don't take a particular exemple.
On July 05 2014 09:50 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:48 Alaric wrote:
BotRK doesn't do much when the guy gets 30% damage reduction regardless.
Riven would get wrecked in 1v2 and you're gonna eat it if the enemy team sees you pick that.
Assassins don't work as well because shit like Braum, Thresh, etc. are popular, and because Exhaust transforms "I caught you!" into "I just offered myself to you!", while Heal ensures that they'll live anyway.
Plus try and assassinate Ziggs clearing from 1500 range. Braum is actually weak to melee assassinate compared to the other supports, his e does nothing against them and if he doesn't have his ult he has no way to peel whatsoever (plus he has to be standing right on his carry when the assassin comes in and not disabled or he can't do anything in time). The main reason that you don't see a lot of assassins anymore is because they were nerfed significantly and because of the exhaust change to be -50% damage. (Strong against any sort of all in champion)
These reasons happened first so obviously they're the main, but Braum doesn't help (W shield, he can stop assassins like Talon or Akali who rely mostly on projectiles for their damage, and his passive if applied fast can help peel too; his E also prevents ranged champions from being able to add some damage to finish off someone when the assassin can't do the whole 100-0 himself).
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I think projectile blocks could potentially be good, but they were rushed into the game before fixing all the intricacies that simply don't make sense. Gragas ulti into windwall should blow up upon contacting the wall, dealing the effect in a 180 degree arc, not get eaten. Same with gragas Q. Pretty much every single projectile that has an endpoint AoE effect should deal damage upon contacting the wall in a 180 degree arc.
Also on the skill eating point. Nami ult for example shouldn't get fully absorbed, only the part that contacts wall should get eaten. Same thing with talon ult, which is even worse. There are so many cases that are straight up nonsensical and dumb that are ignored because some champion designer decided that X should be in the game, without thinking about the consequences.
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On July 05 2014 20:08 yamato77 wrote:
Well, league doesn't really have to attract more new players at this point, they simply have to retain the ones that do play. Hence why they've never changed the early level system, the early rune system, the imbalanced summoner unlocking mechanic, etc. Their game is free, they don't really care if you start playing it, they care if you keep playing it long enough to buy more champs/skins/etc. Of course it still appeals to the widest possible audience, but the strategy of Riot is solely devoted into keeping people playing their game.
You can see this in their design philosophy. They want the game to be easy mechanically so people don't quit because it's too hard. They want the game to be simple because complex systems turn away the casual gamer. They often change things based on how "unfun" something is to play against, because they don't want people to quit from being frustrated. Yet they attempt to appeal to the competitive player with ranked matchmaking, an esports scene that they support and market themselves, and an ever-changing pool of competitively viable champions maintained and updated by the patch/release/rework cycle.
No i agree. they have a large enough player base to profit greatly and keep a healthy amount of players. but what happens when the amount of new players coming in start to diminish to below the amount of players leaving because they are starting families or leave the region they are in, or just don't like how the game is played right now, or who leave because they can't get their friends to commit 2 months of time playing a crappy version of the game they enjoy before they can play with them? or the people whose friends tried low level league, hated it, and now are entrenched in smite/dota/dawngate or something? if they leave during a time where they don't enjoy league and go to another game and like it better, they may not come back.
those players are being replaced by new players right now, but when it becomes too much of a problem to get started in league, then there may not be point in starting in the first place.
Frankly, if the low level gameplay isn't improved, then league will begin to dwindle inbetween major updates until riot screws up badly in an update and the decline begins. it'll be like wow right now, where a lot of people come back when an expansion is around and then it dies off greatly. even wow's peak numbers don't match what they used to be though.
EDIT: and i don't mean to say i think LoL is dying or any of that crap, but that something should be done to help new players. you can only dangle a carrot thats so delicious if what you ask them to do is a waste of time and a bad experience, especially when its just a game in the first place. For those of you in silver/bronze How many new players have you seen in your ranked games lately compared to a year or two ago? it don't think there could be really that many at all.
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What happens to Talon's ult? Does the whole ring of blades disappear, even the one that are thrown on the opposite side of Talon compared to Braum?
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On July 05 2014 20:30 Alaric wrote:
What happens to Talon's ult? Does the whole ring of blades disappear, even the one that are thrown on the opposite side of Talon compared to Braum?
The whole ring of blades is coded as one, so that you can only get hit once going out, and once going in. If it gets absorbed, the whole ring vanishes. You'd think that Riot could afford to hire an intern on their internal sandbox to just use every skill in the game on an infinite wall to document interactions, but evidently not.
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On July 05 2014 21:04 Alaric wrote:
._. That's so dumb.
beyond just the brokenness of it currently, imagine how cool talon would be if you could get hit with multiple projectiles, like shadowfiend ulti. they'd have to be a bit larger in hitbox, and the damage obviously lowered per projectile, but damn it'd be cool.
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EPT
