|
On June 22 2014 15:03 krndandaman wrote:
this patch really confuses me..
are traditional ap mids weaker now? i'm having such a hard time laning with them vs aggressive mids such as syndra, lb, etc.
athene nerf actually hurts.
or maybe i just got bad in the 2 days i didn't play but damn.
syndra is the best midlaner imo at the moment, lb got nerfed so she's pretty bad now and shouldnt be seeing her much anymore, the rest are all standard mages + yasuo
|
Looking at the champions that most frequently buy athene's, if anything, their win rates overall have gone up slightly since the patch (with the obvious exception of Nidalee and LeBlanc).
|
On June 22 2014 15:21 GolemMadness wrote:
Looking at the champions that most frequently buy athene's, if anything, their win rates overall have gone up slightly since the patch (with the obvious exception of Nidalee and LeBlanc).
Most mana dependent mids used the item. It's not like the change in win rate would be noticeable even if people continued getting athenes.
|
On June 22 2014 09:48 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 09:26 Sufficiency wrote:On June 22 2014 09:05 wei2coolman wrote:On June 22 2014 06:56 arb wrote:On June 22 2014 06:52 wei2coolman wrote:On June 22 2014 06:49 travis wrote:
why isn't swain played at competitive levels?
he seems overpowered lol Gets shoved in early game. Terrible autoattack animation along with low attackspeed makes his early game beyond painful. He also is susceptible to getting blown up early on. Also he has no good item timings until like the 3rd or 4th item and even then it's pretty underwhelming. lol what. once you get rod youre alot tankier than most people think. His auto animation isnt nearly as bad as you say, getting used to it i can last hit with it pretty consistently and its not even a problem. His 1-5 can be a problem but if you ward and dont over extend its pretty decent. I feel like people who think Swain is a weak character either dont know what they're talking about or havent played him. His main problem is you want to harass constantly with E but against the mages that are popular now you really need to max W to not get shoved in instantly and out roamed imo. His damage and sustain are totally fine Yeah, enjoy trying to get your Rod timing at a reasonable time while you get brutally out cs'd in mid. All while considering your range is short as hell, thus leaving you far more vulnerable to damage, not to mention lack of mobility makes it extremely hard to dodge AoE. It's for the same reason, even if you rush RoA on Ryze, he still feels rather weak at that 1 item timing, sure he puts out a chunk more damage, but with his range RoA simply isn't enough. You can use Swain as a counter pick against melee mid laners. How many of those are popular that aren't extremely mobile at dodging Swain snares? He's a niche pick at best, and there are other champions that punish the matchup better, and have more overall usage.
Why are you acting like doing damage with Swain relies on his snare? hint; it doesnt.
When a melee mid, like zed or diana or something jumps on you, you unload EQRW and they will take way more fucking damage than they did to you literally almost every time. He's the best Ahri counter pick when shes available, and is extremely good against any kind of melee mid laner. Even if thats his only niche he's very good at it.
|
Hi guys,
So Urgot is my ADC of choice but I've wanted to pick up Caitlyn. What is her build order? What items does she like to get?
Also the appeal behind Caitlyn is that her laning phase is strong, correct? From my understanding she isn't a great duelist, but what she likes to do is to have a great laning phase so that when team fights occur she's ahead of the other ADC so being a weaker duelist isn't as relevant. Is this sort of the idea behind Caitlyn or am I crazy?
Sorry if these are obvious questions but ADC isn't a role that I play very often and I was looking for a champion that can help me understand the fundamentals of ADC.
Unless Urgot is completely fine in which case I can keep playing him as my ADC! 
|
On June 22 2014 16:07 Frudgey wrote:Hi guys, So Urgot is my ADC of choice but I've wanted to pick up Caitlyn. What is her build order? What items does she like to get? Also the appeal behind Caitlyn is that her laning phase is strong, correct? From my understanding she isn't a great duelist, but what she likes to do is to have a great laning phase so that when team fights occur she's ahead of the other ADC so being a weaker duelist isn't as relevant. Is this sort of the idea behind Caitlyn or am I crazy? Sorry if these are obvious questions but ADC isn't a role that I play very often and I was looking for a champion that can help me understand the fundamentals of ADC. Unless Urgot is completely fine in which case I can keep playing him as my ADC!
Stay hipster and true to Urgot.
|
Other than having a strong laning phase, Caitlyn's great at sieging towers so don't think that just because laning is going great you should keep it up. Look for opportunities to take tower and move to other lanes so you get your global gold rolling.
Her teamfighting is okay too, mainly because she's so safe with range+net.
|
On June 22 2014 16:07 Frudgey wrote:Hi guys, So Urgot is my ADC of choice but I've wanted to pick up Caitlyn. What is her build order? What items does she like to get? Also the appeal behind Caitlyn is that her laning phase is strong, correct? From my understanding she isn't a great duelist, but what she likes to do is to have a great laning phase so that when team fights occur she's ahead of the other ADC so being a weaker duelist isn't as relevant. Is this sort of the idea behind Caitlyn or am I crazy? Sorry if these are obvious questions but ADC isn't a role that I play very often and I was looking for a champion that can help me understand the fundamentals of ADC. Unless Urgot is completely fine in which case I can keep playing him as my ADC!
I think her builds generally go BT or IE first for the extra AD damage that'll strengthen her abilities. They're really hard to build though because BF sword costs 1550.
|
On June 22 2014 15:37 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 15:21 GolemMadness wrote:
Looking at the champions that most frequently buy athene's, if anything, their win rates overall have gone up slightly since the patch (with the obvious exception of Nidalee and LeBlanc). Most mana dependent mids used the item. It's not like the change in win rate would be noticeable even if people continued getting athenes.
Lots of the most popular mid laners don't get Athene's. Yasuo, Kayle, Kat, Fizz, Zed, Akali, Kassadin, etc. So you'd think there'd be at least a slight win rate drop.
|
On June 22 2014 12:21 Amarok wrote:
So why was Rengar disabled in competitive play for so long? Was it the triple Q bug?
#FREESHEN
#DISABLEDINCOMPETITIVEFOR2MONTHSANDCOUNTING
|
United States37500 Posts
I think the primary reason why Swain isn't a viable option in competitive play is because he's horrendous in lane swap situations. I think he's more conducive in Top than Mid because his range is pretty bad against most other AP picks.
That said, there are plenty of champions that aren't good at the competitive level but still a good pick to farm elo. Swain is a big bully to most melee champions/bruisers, that's a given but he's also weak against popular top picks that can either all-in with a gap closer (Renekton, Riven) or have better sustain pre-6 (Nidalee). Assuming your average solo queue games goes 40+ minutes and you can farm up to 3-4 items, Swain isn't that bad in that case.
My main counterpoint to the Swain pick is why select him when you can Ryze?
@Frudgey: Q open, E and W at level 2 and 3 (order depending on what you need in lane), R > Q > E > W. Pre 4.10, typical Caitlyn build was BT into Shiv or PD, Shiv being better at pushing lanes, PD better for team fights. She's a really strong laner because of her innate range and passive. Poke whenever you're not last hitting (without pulling the enemy minions too much) and maximize your Headshots.
|
so how are the new item changes for ad carries? Better/worse?
|
On June 22 2014 16:45 IMoperator wrote:
so how are the new item changes for ad carries? Better/worse?
They feel a lot stronger at their ie timing. Bt and essence reaver is weak as fuck. Botrk feels the same.
Also, has anyone actually started a fight where an adc actually had the BT shield fully stacked?
|
On June 22 2014 16:07 Frudgey wrote:Hi guys, So Urgot is my ADC of choice but I've wanted to pick up Caitlyn. What is her build order? What items does she like to get? Also the appeal behind Caitlyn is that her laning phase is strong, correct? From my understanding she isn't a great duelist, but what she likes to do is to have a great laning phase so that when team fights occur she's ahead of the other ADC so being a weaker duelist isn't as relevant. Is this sort of the idea behind Caitlyn or am I crazy? Sorry if these are obvious questions but ADC isn't a role that I play very often and I was looking for a champion that can help me understand the fundamentals of ADC. Unless Urgot is completely fine in which case I can keep playing him as my ADC!
Caitlyn is in kind of a weird place in terms of learning fundamentals. She teaches you good fundamentals in the sense that she's kind of just the raw fundamentals of AD without any bells and whistles. If you have good fundamentals--for whatever level you play at, above some minimum threshold--you'll do well on Caitlyn. But it's not immediately obvious when you're not playing Caitlyn well because she has so much built-in safety, so if you're not a very good Caitlyn, you'll still have a reasonably good KDA and good farm in a lot of games in which you had very little impact.
Caitlyn is great at sieging, laning and setting up for objectives. If you aren't doing these things well, you should probably play something else. Her teamfight is pretty lackluster from around first completed item to second or third, depending on how the game is playing out. You need to move around the map intelligently in the midgame and be careful about which fights you(r team) takes(s). Make sure you find your farm in the midgame; you can't really snowball on kills unless your opponents are awful or the rest of your team is already snowballing. Push a lot of towers, either split or with your team. Don't get flanked.
I used to build BT-->LW in most games. It's kind of non-traditional, but your poke hits like a truck and you push down towers reasonably fast. You also do actual damage to the targets that will be in safe range on a two item timing (as opposed to something like BT-->Shiv where you will kind of tickle Sunfire + Randuin's tanks). I have no idea how good this is or not since the BF overhaul.
I don't think there's anything wrong with Urgot (or anyone, really), so long as you're not on the pro level.
|
Yo that was sick. I was playing Ashe, and they had a Lissandra. Randomly 35 min into the game it says "Ashe must slay Lissandra to defend her people." So I go and bop Lissandra, and this sick ass crown shows up above me.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
On June 22 2014 16:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
I think the primary reason why Swain isn't a viable option in competitive play is because he's horrendous in lane swap situations. I think he's more conducive in Top than Mid because his range is pretty bad against most other AP picks.
That said, there are plenty of champions that aren't good at the competitive level but still a good pick to farm elo. Swain is a big bully to most melee champions/bruisers, that's a given but he's also weak against popular top picks that can either all-in with a gap closer (Renekton, Riven) or have better sustain pre-6 (Nidalee). Assuming your average solo queue games goes 40+ minutes and you can farm up to 3-4 items, Swain isn't that bad in that case.
My main counterpoint to the Swain pick is why select him when you can Ryze?
@Frudgey: Q open, E and W at level 2 and 3 (order depending on what you need in lane), R > Q > E > W. Pre 4.10, typical Caitlyn build was BT into Shiv or PD, Shiv being better at pushing lanes, PD better for team fights. She's a really strong laner because of her innate range and passive. Poke whenever you're not last hitting (without pulling the enemy minions too much) and maximize your Headshots.
I think Swain is actually more comparable to Vlad, but sure Ryze works.
I think Swain top lane is pretty underwhelming even in soloQ. He has a lot of really bad match ups (i.e. unplayable match ups) it's not even funny.
|
On June 22 2014 15:43 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 09:48 wei2coolman wrote:On June 22 2014 09:26 Sufficiency wrote:On June 22 2014 09:05 wei2coolman wrote:On June 22 2014 06:56 arb wrote:On June 22 2014 06:52 wei2coolman wrote:On June 22 2014 06:49 travis wrote:
why isn't swain played at competitive levels?
he seems overpowered lol Gets shoved in early game. Terrible autoattack animation along with low attackspeed makes his early game beyond painful. He also is susceptible to getting blown up early on. Also he has no good item timings until like the 3rd or 4th item and even then it's pretty underwhelming. lol what. once you get rod youre alot tankier than most people think. His auto animation isnt nearly as bad as you say, getting used to it i can last hit with it pretty consistently and its not even a problem. His 1-5 can be a problem but if you ward and dont over extend its pretty decent. I feel like people who think Swain is a weak character either dont know what they're talking about or havent played him. His main problem is you want to harass constantly with E but against the mages that are popular now you really need to max W to not get shoved in instantly and out roamed imo. His damage and sustain are totally fine Yeah, enjoy trying to get your Rod timing at a reasonable time while you get brutally out cs'd in mid. All while considering your range is short as hell, thus leaving you far more vulnerable to damage, not to mention lack of mobility makes it extremely hard to dodge AoE. It's for the same reason, even if you rush RoA on Ryze, he still feels rather weak at that 1 item timing, sure he puts out a chunk more damage, but with his range RoA simply isn't enough. You can use Swain as a counter pick against melee mid laners. How many of those are popular that aren't extremely mobile at dodging Swain snares? He's a niche pick at best, and there are other champions that punish the matchup better, and have more overall usage. Why are you acting like doing damage with Swain relies on his snare? hint; it doesnt. When a melee mid, like zed or diana or something jumps on you, you unload EQRW and they will take way more fucking damage than they did to you literally almost every time. He's the best Ahri counter pick when shes available, and is extremely good against any kind of melee mid laner. Even if thats his only niche he's very good at it.
1- How do you even get in range of Ahri? Why would Zed need to attack you when one of the annoying things about laning against him is that he's an energy champion with very good waveclear?
2- Diana's shield actually makes it so you don't do that much damage to her. She'll always get to block the full value of the shield. She can also shove lane pretty efficiently using her Q because of its flat mana cost (Diana is pretty mana-hungry if you spam, but only because of her shield's cost). If she goes for drings into abyssal or something, she's a royal pain in the ass, and the can also roam well (like Zed, Ahri, etc.).
On June 22 2014 16:54 wei2coolman wrote:
Also, has anyone actually started a fight where an adc actually had the BT shield fully stacked?
o/
But that was a Draven and we didn't have much wave clear (Nidalee, Ryze, Vi, Morgana), the enemy team played a bit scared so he wasn't in danger at first (Noc was bad and ended up weak as fuck from me killing him twice when he tried invading me, Syndra hanged in the back and had Zhonya, Ezreal rushed BotRK, so I just said "fuck it I won't be able to reach/stick to any of them" and ulted the Cass support then acted as a wall), and since it's Draven he gets huge amounts of lifesteal from his axes on minions.
|
On June 22 2014 18:57 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 15:43 arb wrote:On June 22 2014 09:48 wei2coolman wrote:On June 22 2014 09:26 Sufficiency wrote:On June 22 2014 09:05 wei2coolman wrote:On June 22 2014 06:56 arb wrote:On June 22 2014 06:52 wei2coolman wrote:On June 22 2014 06:49 travis wrote:
why isn't swain played at competitive levels?
he seems overpowered lol Gets shoved in early game. Terrible autoattack animation along with low attackspeed makes his early game beyond painful. He also is susceptible to getting blown up early on. Also he has no good item timings until like the 3rd or 4th item and even then it's pretty underwhelming. lol what. once you get rod youre alot tankier than most people think. His auto animation isnt nearly as bad as you say, getting used to it i can last hit with it pretty consistently and its not even a problem. His 1-5 can be a problem but if you ward and dont over extend its pretty decent. I feel like people who think Swain is a weak character either dont know what they're talking about or havent played him. His main problem is you want to harass constantly with E but against the mages that are popular now you really need to max W to not get shoved in instantly and out roamed imo. His damage and sustain are totally fine Yeah, enjoy trying to get your Rod timing at a reasonable time while you get brutally out cs'd in mid. All while considering your range is short as hell, thus leaving you far more vulnerable to damage, not to mention lack of mobility makes it extremely hard to dodge AoE. It's for the same reason, even if you rush RoA on Ryze, he still feels rather weak at that 1 item timing, sure he puts out a chunk more damage, but with his range RoA simply isn't enough. You can use Swain as a counter pick against melee mid laners. How many of those are popular that aren't extremely mobile at dodging Swain snares? He's a niche pick at best, and there are other champions that punish the matchup better, and have more overall usage. Why are you acting like doing damage with Swain relies on his snare? hint; it doesnt. When a melee mid, like zed or diana or something jumps on you, you unload EQRW and they will take way more fucking damage than they did to you literally almost every time. He's the best Ahri counter pick when shes available, and is extremely good against any kind of melee mid laner. Even if thats his only niche he's very good at it. 1- How do you even get in range of Ahri? Why would Zed need to attack you when one of the annoying things about laning against him is that he's an energy champion with very good waveclear? 2- Diana's shield actually makes it so you don't do that much damage to her. She'll always get to block the full value of the shield. She can also shove lane pretty efficiently using her Q because of its flat mana cost (Diana is pretty mana-hungry if you spam, but only because of her shield's cost). If she goes for drings into abyssal or something, she's a royal pain in the ass, and the can also roam well (like Zed, Ahri, etc.).
You wait till Ahri ults you then you unload on her and fuck her in the face?
Zed i havent actually played much against but i figure he follows the same idea tbh.
Diana has a 40 damage shield, lol thats going to stop like an auto attack or something maybe, you should be E + right clicking her anytime she even thinks of looking at creeps, much like any melee mid when you play swain
|
Swain in URF was pretty hilarious though. Got a 5v1 penta one time.
|
Well yeah, harass is a different thing, but I don't see Diana going on you before she gets some items/level 6+, or her jungler is there either way. Which where her ability to last hit/shove with Q gets into consideration.
Her shield has 80 + 0.6 AP strength at level 1, if we're talking about when she goes in then it will stack.
I don't think Ahri has any reason to ult you unless she can be sure she'll kill you either way, so she won't try to 100-0 you. Q and W have enough range to hit you outside of anything but Nevermove's reach, so she can be content with poking and shoving you.
I mean, obviously if LB stays in melee range to try and get her chain off you she's going to hurt, for example, but unless they have a reason to (for example you're in kill range), I don't see why anyone who outranges you would bother ever entering your range. That'd be like saying "Riven totally shits on Nidalee at level 2 man", Nidalee shouldn't ever be in range of Riven anyway, unless the latter flashes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5f9mrOq.png)
