EPT[Patch 4.10] Nidalee/Skarner Rework General Discussion - P…
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 22 2014 01:40 obesechicken13 wrote: How far back does this collection go? I find it interesting that 2 were in bronze and knowing diamond streamers they were probably trolling. It goes back to Patch 4.3 I believe. But the amount of data per patch varies due to a variety of reasons. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On June 22 2014 01:17 Ryuu314 wrote: wat. Maokai's getting buffed on PBE. Mana and cooldown buffs across the board. Plus his peeling power is even stronger now. The only real nerf is the range reduction on W, which will hurt his early ganks, but they're also apparently removing his cast time on it. That's reasonably significant considering that Maokai's W cast time is pretty significant atm. Even then, 500 range is still ok for ganking. yea just ignore the massive damage nerfs across the board, the range nerf, etc. this is a huge nerf. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35143 Posts
On June 22 2014 01:20 PrinceXizor wrote: you could argue that the way Ice frog has done it, by disabling dramatically new content from competitive play for extended periods of time and prior to dota 2, having a stable version compared to a new version, is objectively better than riot's 'okay next week we use new patch!'. definitely not perfect though. doesn't help the actual balancing, but helps mitigate the negative effects of changes. We get it, you really like Icefrog. However, the tournament realm delay is to largely suit the same issue. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On June 22 2014 01:46 chalice wrote: the diamond game was probably just purple getting stomped with massive amounts of bullshit ziggs waveclear, he probably had like 700cs. I think it would have to be double aces or support only living, with death timers that big i dont know any other way for them to go that long, even with ziggs the lanes would eventually push against them if they're only playing defensive imo. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 22 2014 01:59 Gahlo wrote: We get it, you really like Icefrog. However, the tournament realm delay is to largely suit the same issue. Riots delay isn't close to the same time tournaments would stay on a stable version in dota. they are quick to get their product our there in LCS asap. it creates a big disconnect when you watch pro games play on a different version than you and riot dislikes any disconnect between pro play and regular play. they try to propagate the myth that solo queue is the same as competitive play as much as they can, because its good business to keep bronze players thinking they are only a few months of practice away from getting a shot at LCS. User was warned for this post | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 22 2014 01:54 VayneAuthority wrote: yea just ignore the massive damage nerfs across the board, the range nerf, etc. this is a huge nerf. It's only a nerf if you regularly built damage on Maokai. As long as it doesn't hurt his clear time in jungle, with these damage nerfs, the mana cost and cd changes should be an overall buff for Maokai. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 22 2014 02:01 arb wrote: I think it would have to be double aces or support only living, with death timers that big i dont know any other way for them to go that long, even with ziggs the lanes would eventually push against them if they're only playing defensive imo. It's impossible to tell from what I got. The only way to find out is to ask these players themselves what happened. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 22 2014 01:17 PrinceXizor wrote: TO be fair, not many other gaming companies at the time allowed you to spend real money to get time or money gated content. most companies just released a full game. the micro transaction games prior to league were almost universally considered money grab games. league did change the market quite a bit. the burden of absorbing the consequences of that change are rightfully or not, on riot's shoulders. No, it means there's no precedent by which Riot could remotely be considered unreasonable for this. On June 22 2014 01:31 PrinceXizor wrote: I'd argue both are failures, as they should try to stay as close to the original play style as possible when changing champions. but whatever. ??? The only reason to do a comprehensive rework and not a simple numbers change is to alter the core playstyle of the champion in the first place. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On June 22 2014 02:06 wei2coolman wrote: It's only a nerf if you regularly built damage on Maokai. As long as it doesn't hurt his clear time in jungle, with these damage nerfs, the mana cost and cd changes should be an overall buff for Maokai. well yea no shit I build full damage, laning him and going full AP is the only fun way to play him in diamond. anything else isnt viable. this is lame as shit. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 22 2014 03:02 TheYango wrote: No, it means there's no precedent by which Riot could remotely be considered unreasonable for this. no precedent doesn't mean you can get away with anything. the industry leader in a field like riot was with F2P games, they have a responsibility to manage their players fairly. they could have shown up on the scene and said: 800 dollars a champion or 2 ip a game until you unlock the 6300 ip champions. and it would have been unreasonable even without precedent. people wouldn't be asking for refunds on things they bought if riot hadn't decided to drastically change what they bought. a company sells a connect 4 iphone game and then decides it should be tic tac toe instead, that changes the play style and the people buying it have a right to demand a refund for being sold a different game than they have now. On June 22 2014 03:02 TheYango wrote: ??? The only reason to do a comprehensive rework and not a simple numbers change is to alter the core playstyle of the champion in the first place. Not necessarily. If a champion isn't functioning as written you don't have to alter the playstyle to do a rework. Look at skarners reworks. his play style is now the same as it was at the start just in a different manner reworks don't have to destroy what exists in order to rebuild. you can argue its not necessary to have engaged in those reworks in the first place, but you can rework something to keep the same play style. just because it may not be superior to just changing numbers doesn't mean riot will not do it. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
If someone can predict what will be popular after a big patch and its radically different than what is currently played, its probably too much to drop right before worlds. It would be like if the NBA made hand checks illegal right before the playoffs (not in between seasons). The amount of extra fouls it would generate would detract from the event itself, and defense would be much worse without time for players to adapt. Even if the change itself is probably better for the game, people aren't going to like it due how it was introduced. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35143 Posts
On June 22 2014 03:04 PrinceXizor wrote: no precedent doesn't mean you can get away with anything. the industry leader in a field like riot was with F2P games, they have a responsibility to manage their players fairly. they could have shown up on the scene and said: 800 dollars a champion or 2 ip a game until you unlock the 6300 ip champions. and it would have been unreasonable even without precedent. people wouldn't be asking for refunds on things they bought if riot hadn't decided to drastically change what they bought. a company sells a connect 4 iphone game and then decides it should be tic tac toe instead, that changes the play style and the people buying it have a right to demand a refund for being sold a different game than they have now. Yeah, and considering they didn't go for a pay to win or a "revive for 99c" button shows that they have. All income Riot makes is due to the good will of their players. If I was Riot, I never would have put the refunds in the game in the first place because if there's anything the playerbase has shown is that if you give them and inch they'll try to take a mile. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 22 2014 03:14 zer0das wrote: I think there's something to be said for keeping the competitive game somewhat fresh by introducing new changes. That being said, patches as big as the one before season 3 finals shouldn't happen on such short notice. Corki/Jax in worlds all day long, even though they were used extremely sparingly before then, and Ryze getting thrown into the trash heap. If someone can predict what will be popular after a big patch and its radically different than what is currently played, its probably too much to drop right before worlds. It would be like if the NBA made hand checks illegal right before the playoffs (not in between seasons). The amount of extra fouls it would generate would detract from the event itself, and defense would be much worse without time for players to adapt. Even if the change itself is probably better for the game, people aren't going to like it due how it was introduced. The other thing that does not make sense, is that Riot will disable a champ after a major change (I assume 4.10 Nidalee and Skarner will be disabled), but then not carry that ban over if the issues still aren't fixed (such as 4.10 Braum, 4.6 Kass, and probably 4.11 Nidalee). | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 22 2014 03:24 Gahlo wrote: Yeah, and considering they didn't go for a pay to win or a "revive for 99c" button shows that they have. All income Riot makes is due to the good will of their players. If I was Riot, I never would have put the refunds in the game in the first place because if there's anything the playerbase has shown is that if you give them and inch they'll try to take a mile. I'd argue there is a heavy pressure from the community, not riot to keep up with the current strong champions and make sure you have them as the meta changes. i don't think 100% of RP bought is solely "i love riot let me buy something to support them" there is definitely pressure to keep up with everyone else, and that makes new players more likely to spend cash to keep up with the people who were around from season 1 and before back when Ip flowed like rain compared to now. Riot isn't directing that community pressure, but the constant changes and advertisement surely don't ease the pressure. they know what they are doing, and if 100% of sales were due to good will, then riot would suffer greatly from quarter to quarter as changes happen that people dislike. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On June 22 2014 03:27 PrinceXizor wrote: I'd argue there is a heavy pressure from the community, not riot to keep up with the current strong champions and make sure you have them as the meta changes. i don't think 100% of RP bought is solely "i love riot let me buy something to support them" there is definitely pressure to keep up with everyone else, and that makes new players more likely to spend cash to keep up with the people who were around from season 1 and before back when Ip flowed like rain compared to now. Riot isn't directing that community pressure, but the constant changes and advertisement surely don't ease the pressure. they know what they are doing, and if 100% of sales were due to good will, then riot would suffer greatly from quarter to quarter as changes happen that people dislike. there was a smallish window from account resets to ip current ip rates | ||
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Gahlo
United States35143 Posts
On June 22 2014 03:27 PrinceXizor wrote: I'd argue there is a heavy pressure from the community, not riot to keep up with the current strong champions and make sure you have them as the meta changes. i don't think 100% of RP bought is solely "i love riot let me buy something to support them" there is definitely pressure to keep up with everyone else, and that makes new players more likely to spend cash to keep up with the people who were around from season 1 and before back when Ip flowed like rain compared to now. Riot isn't directing that community pressure, but the constant changes and advertisement surely don't ease the pressure. they know what they are doing, and if 100% of sales were due to good will, then riot would suffer greatly from quarter to quarter as changes happen that people dislike. I know this might come as a shock, considering the type of player that tends to flock to TL in general, but a lot of people don't pay attention/care about competitive trends and play what they like. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 22 2014 03:35 Gahlo wrote: I know this might come as a shock, considering the type of player that tends to flock to TL in general, but a lot of people don't pay attention/care about competitive trends and play what they like. and much of those still deal with people harrassing them for not banning X or not playing X in solo queue. normal players are normal players, and they'll buy every skin that comes out for their favorite champion. there is a status thing with skins too. you can't say ALL of riots income is good will based, thats as silly as saying none of it is. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On June 22 2014 02:02 PrinceXizor wrote: Riots delay isn't close to the same time tournaments would stay on a stable version in dota. they are quick to get their product our there in LCS asap. it creates a big disconnect when you watch pro games play on a different version than you and riot dislikes any disconnect between pro play and regular play. they try to propagate the myth that solo queue is the same as competitive play as much as they can, because its good business to keep bronze players thinking they are only a few months of practice away from getting a shot at LCS. this is a very good point and i love the fact you are bringing this up. this strategy has a deeper and more general impact and it's used by a lot of gaming companies especially the big ones. what they do is create an illusion of success. they use exaggerated and often unbased gratification for almost everything you do and they create rather distracting ingame choices that are not real or interesting but give you some kind of visual pleasure. They often cover up the deeper layers of gameplay and self improvement by the noisy appeal of shallow and meaningless stimulation. Before I go on I want to mention that this is just one side of the coin and it's an important one in some senses. They also do alot of good and interesting things which improve the depth of the gameplay and or the communication such as the ping gestures and ofc alot of the ingenious champion designs they did. But to further explore what I mean let me give you just a few examples on the bad side of the influence specifically Riot has on their game and us as a gaming community: Ranked elo skew They hide the elo from the players and put a meaningless distraction-layer on top of it. The larger scale on which this layer operates is labeled by the three olympic medal metals, bronze silver and gold, and then, as if that is not enough, they go further and decorate the really best with even more precious materials such as platinum and diamond. Please notice that the skala doesn't start with bad/low/0 and goes on to average and then to good. Everyone is allready a winner! Below that layer there is still the elo system, but they don't think that the gaming community is able to make sense of a transparent and proven rating system, so they put this skewed and kind of overcomplicated thing on top of it. Frequent balance patches, changes and champion additions This has gotten better over time but it's still the worst enemy of LoL and other competitive games. Instead of focussing on the things that are broken and creating an infrastructure for the game to foster. They want to control how the game is played and move things around to achieve that goal. Almost every interesting evolution of the game which comes from the community is either dampered, shut down or prevented entirely by Riots patching behaviour. Highly successful/dominant champion/team strategies, are more often weakened or entierly patched out by Riot. Instead they could let the slow evolution of player interaction make those "meta shifts" (god i hate this expression) happen, and they probably know that. Even though I agree with most of the individual balance changes they make, I don't agree with the general strategy they follow. Emphasis on fluff instead on depth There are alot of things they could implement to add depth to the game and alot of them are in a peripheral area of LoL. One of the good examples of this I find are the ping expressions (retreat, missing, comming here, and help) which are a perfect example of them giving the players a tool which improves the gameplay directly and meaningfully. The ping expressions let the players communicate in a fast, clear and unified way while it puts emphasis on the things happening in the game and away from the chat. perfect. Now imagine LoL had a good replay system, a scriptable UI and if they would gather actually meaningful game data (this is a rather unexplored area) and present it to the community. But instead they are deeply concerned with itemization, which is the most distracting feature of LoL of all. Itemization is not only shallow and mostly uninteresting but worse, it's distracting as hell. Because LoL has so little utility itemization it's not even meaningful beyond doing the correct math. But they decorate their lazy decision to focus so much on them by acting as if a higher variance in itemization (which they fail to achieve) is giving the playes more "meaningful choices". Those choices are allready there so they could just stop covering them up and patching them out and start giving the community things to find them and make them. If you think about these things then you see that those points have one thing in common: They don't take the players seriously enough. And they don't see how their game could have a much greater more positive impact and much more depth as they trust it to have. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
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