EPT[Patch 4.9] RIP Kha'Zix General Discussion - Page 85
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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things. Enough is enough. Let's move along now. -NeoIllusions | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
bork didn't exist back then so that might skew things | ||
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Gahlo
United States35091 Posts
On June 12 2014 01:34 nafta wrote: It is cost efficient but that isn't the problem.The problem is it sets you back 2500 gold for a useless stat-mana.It isn't a good item by itself because it delays your real items with crit. 1. You don't spent 2500g on mana. Hell you don't even spend 250g on mana. 2. ALL AD carries use mana, therefore, it isn't "useless." 3. Doesn't stop BT from being built. 4. The only reason a LOT of ADC builds have crit on them before IE is because Shiv/PD come with it, but those items are only really bought for their movement speed and AS. Crit is a pretty garbage stat without IE. | ||
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OmegaKnetus
Germany431 Posts
Mana is important early way more than late on anyone who'd consider Reaver over Tear. People like Talon, GP or WW have a decent mana pool by the time they could afford the Reaver, while Jayce yorick etc want tear to get a big mana pool to spam their poke. Reaver will not be worth it on anyone until it gets heavy price reduction or Mana components | ||
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Gahlo
United States35091 Posts
On June 12 2014 01:50 OmegaKnetus wrote: you guys are missing the most important reason why essence reaver sucks. It is way too expensive and none of the components actually give mana or regen, so you basically get that item super late when you already have enough mana to not need it anyways. Mana is important early way more than late on anyone who'd consider Reaver over Tear. People like Talon, GP or WW have a decent mana pool by the time they could afford the Reaver, while Jayce yorick etc want tear to get a big mana pool to spam their poke. Reaver will not be worth it on anyone until it gets heavy price reduction or Mana components I think you're missing the point that when it starts giving you mana is when it gives you increased ability to blow it on spells, when you combine it. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 12 2014 01:34 nafta wrote: It is cost efficient but that isn't the problem.The problem is it sets you back 2500 gold for a useless stat-mana.It isn't a good item by itself because it delays your real items with crit. So no; that is wrong. Compared to a BT first item going for a cheaper LS item will get you to your crit faster. Going for this item and abusing the mana regen will pretty much in all aspects get you to your second item faster. This item only delays crit if your building Ie first. The problem is that the late game timing on a 2500 gold item which only has cdr and AD is bad. An adc who buys it needs to win before the enemies three item timing comes in items fill up. CDR isn't an efficient stat compared to crit or as once item timing his the point where your auto damage is comparable to your ability damage, which it will. The question is how much of an advantage can you get with the 1200+ gold timing advantage over an IE rush. If you can get a bit lead in that time thanks to the hp/mana sustain then this item will be well worth it. If you can't then the item will not be valuable. I suspect that some ADs will get a lot of use out of it to bully and push towers during that rather large advantaged duration, especially if they're playing against a poke or weaker AD. On June 12 2014 01:23 padfoota wrote: Actually I just thought about how the item really affects ADCs tho. Current ADC core items are BT, Shiv and then last whisper. Shiv is more of a filler item for pushing power and the attack speed, the crit being more negligible than anything. Right now, with a lot of top tier ADCs being caster based (excluding TF builds and BotrK rushers), an early essence reaver, BT, then LW is probably way better. Essence gives a lot more during laning phase, and is probably comparable in pushing speed with the added CDR and mana return. With the slight buff to zerk greaves along with the some attack speed runes Im pretty sure we can flat out ignore the loss of attack speed from shiv anyways. The crit is obviously negligible on caster ADCs, who would recieve a higher DPS buff with the added 50 AD compared to the crit and occasional lightning damage. What Im saying is that instead of straight out replacing BT, its just going to replace as a first buy item and replacing static shiv as a core item That is definitely wrong. Shiv is good because of the proc and the crit. If caster ADs didn't care about the crit they would go second item BotRK or second item zephyr. Both of which have ad and as but not crit and so should be marginally better for burst. As it stands the crit and as must be valuable early or late compared to those items to be considered and I have a feeling that the crit is valuable at all points. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
Sure its crazy good if you can get BT+triforce before 20 minutes on Lucian, go HAM mid lane and through their jungle and solo carry the game yourself. If you cannot get it by 20 minutes, chances are either the top lane is going to have one and a half or even two tank items around this time, and Id rather have an early last whisper more than anything (BT>Shiv>LW) If the top lane is a bruiser, sure he wont be getting early tank items, but instead of getting TF, Id go BT>Botrk for max sustain and maximizing dueling + kiting potential...This is especially useful when all the current top junglers are bruiser/assassin based too. TF is just too much of a "poke" item for lucian to utilize properly in teamfights if he isnt super ahead. ^^No they dont go zephyr, a lot of the caster ADs go TF/Botrk tho, and Im pretty sure its not TF's crit they are after. I may be biased since I love playing Lucian, and the new item just seems to open so much more possibilities on him...then I compare him to a lot of other caster ADCs like Varus and I realize it still fits a decent place in terms of item choice. Plus the last professional match I watched was OGN masters finals and it was just kogmaw carrying...he certainly didnt use crit items in that sense. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
In terms of efficient single item it's pretty far up there even without the spellblade so long as you use all the stats. Lucian uses all of the stats. AS and crit are nice because he autos even without his ability weaving, damage is nice because duh, hp and mana are always nice, and move speed keeps him alive. On top of that the 30 AP is not inconsequential to his ult or w and so while not as good as AD is still handy. LW is also a good second buy on Lucian but triforce is very good too. It depends more on how much armor the enemy has. If you're against a ranged support and you have double AP on your team then triforce makes more sense. If you've got one AP and you're against a melee support then LW is probably better. If you're sieging but not tea fighting then triforce is better. So on so forth. ^^No they dont go zephyr, a lot of the caster ADs go TF/Botrk tho, and Im pretty sure its not TF's crit they are after. triforce to BotRK is different from BT to BotRK. In the first instance they're buying for sustain and peel when they already have a crit item to boost IE. In the second they're not getting much out of the BotRK Also the crit on TF is very nice for when you get your fourth item IE. It's not super amazing until then (still worth 10% damage on autos so about 20-30 damage/auto) but it's not nothing. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On June 12 2014 01:48 Slusher wrote: or just lucian going TF before BT lol, but yea 2xdblade into triforce was the trifoce build when dorans had 3%, it was basically 2xdblade > TF or 2xdblade > IE depending on what adc you were playing. bork didn't exist back then so that might skew things I think champs like twitch and vayne still going to love botrk first since it's such a strong single item timing that synergizes with their kits immensely. But we could definitely see a rise of tf first in champs that like it but couldn't afford to rush it first item. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On June 12 2014 02:05 Goumindong wrote: Triforce also has 30 ad, 30% attack speed, 30 AP, health, mana, and movement speed. In terms of efficient single item it's pretty far up there even without the spellblade so long as you use all the stats. Lucian uses all of the stats. AS and crit are nice because he autos even without his ability weaving, damage is nice because duh, hp and mana are always nice, and move speed keeps him alive. On top of that the 30 AP is not inconsequential to his ult or w and so while not as good as AD is still handy. LW is also a good second buy on Lucian but triforce is very good too. It depends more on how much armor the enemy has. If you're against a ranged support and you have double AP on your team then triforce makes more sense. If you've got one AP and you're against a melee support then LW is probably better. If you're sieging but not tea fighting then triforce is better. So on so forth. I didnt say it was bad...I just feel like 3700 is a bit too much for an item that feels so "middle of the road" when the main reason on-hit ADCs get it is really for the spellblade passive for maximizing poke damage. Personally never really use last whisper second since on my server, 8 games out of 10 there will be at least one bruiser/assassin in the game...and its not uncommon to have bruiser top, bruiser/assassin jungle, AD assassin mid comps. I also dislike it when people simply argue "its a cost efficient item and you can use all the stats" I buy items for the situation, not because "its nice", otherwise Id be buying Zhonyas because I can "utilize every stat". Its still a decent item as core for Lucian, just not amazing. Lucian lacks that "amazing" second item after BT, and reaver on paper right now feels amazing. Reaver into TF might be interesting however, but obviously this is arguably true for many bruisers. | ||
739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1764406 | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 12 2014 02:09 padfoota wrote: I didnt say it was bad...I just feel like 3700 is a bit too much for an item that feels so "middle of the road" when the main reason on-hit ADCs get it is really for the spellblade passive for maximizing poke damage. Personally never really use last whisper second since on my server, 8 games out of 10 there will be at least one bruiser/assassin in the game...and its not uncommon to have bruiser top, bruiser/assassin jungle, AD assassin mid comps. I also dislike it when people simply argue "its a cost efficient item and you can use all the stats" I buy items for the situation, not because "its nice", otherwise Id be buying Zhonyas because I can "utilize every stat". Its still a decent item as core for Lucian, just not amazing. Lucian lacks that "amazing" second item after BT, and reaver on paper right now feels amazing. Reaver into TF might be interesting however, but obviously this is arguably true for many bruisers. The problem is that reaver on paper looks absolutely shitty as a second item. It looks OK as a first item but as a second item it looks just plain bad. As a second item you're past the point where the mana sustain matters much. As a second item it has no multiplicative stats (assuming you didn't rush shiv). As a second item it's explicitly worse than Last Whisper, or any other slot efficient items, it's a BF sword for 1000 gold more. And in the mid game you cannot buy 1500 gold of power for 2500 gold. You can do it early because early the cdr and mana sustain are actual power increases early. But not second, this item has to come first*. As for your Zhonya comment; I don't understand. Are you suggesting that you don't buy zhonya on Lucian despite "using every stat" because uhh you can't use every stat on Zhonya, the armor and active are worthless and the AP isn't particularly valuable (better than nothing but still not particularly valuable). Probably the best criteria, especially for an AD whose primary build will not change much, is "is it efficient and do I use all the stats?" *one exception may be if you go muramana first because the mana sustain will help you stack and the bonus sustain will let you keep the muramana active on longer with more damage/hit. | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Graves doesn't care about Reaver. He's low range, his spells are pretty low range, eg. CDR doesn't do much for his Q or R because he's looking to cripple people with it, not output constant dps over the course of a fight the way Ziggs does (amongst other things because fuck him). When he's in range to do more than tickle with Q, a fight is going to break out and it's unlikely 1 less second on the cd will help him much. 'cept in lane with short trades, but 2550 gold is generally near the end of laning (unless you get a bunch of kills and then it doesn't matter). His Q hitting with 2 bullets is 270 + 1.08 bonus AD at level 9. A crit deals more damage currently if he has a stacked BT by then (possibly still the case post-nerf with runes and masteries, as it's still 70 AD on the item). Graves needs AS and crit because his raw AS is bad, his range is low, and burst doesn't scale that well in the game by nature (and he doesn't have the huge-ass ratios/base damage of Ziggs, LB, Riven or Jinx to make up for it). A point will come where his Q and R won't do shit and he won't want to get close enough for a multi-bullets Q on juicy targets anyway because that'd mean he's close enough to get blown-up, and he's going to want to be able to auto people by that point. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On June 12 2014 02:46 Goumindong wrote: The problem is that reaver on paper looks absolutely shitty as a second item. It looks OK as a first item but as a second item it looks just plain bad. As a second item you're past the point where the mana sustain matters much. As a second item it has no multiplicative stats (assuming you didn't rush shiv). As a second item it's explicitly worse than Last Whisper, or any other slot efficient items, it's a BF sword for 1000 gold more. And in the mid game you cannot buy 1500 gold of power for 2500 gold. You can do it early because early the cdr and mana sustain are actual power increases early. But not second, this item has to come first*. As for your Zhonya comment; I don't understand. Are you suggesting that you don't buy zhonya on Lucian despite "using every stat" because uhh you can't use every stat on Zhonya, the armor and active are worthless and the AP isn't particularly valuable (better than nothing but still not particularly valuable). Probably the best criteria, especially for an AD whose primary build will not change much, is "is it efficient and do I use all the stats?" *one exception may be if you go muramana first because the mana sustain will help you stack and the bonus sustain will let you keep the muramana active on longer with more damage/hit. I just realized Im arguing for reavers viability as a shiv replacement for lucian as a "secondary item" with a person who goes TF on Lucian. My mistake. Ignore the Zhonya ref it was an over the top example. My original argument for Reaver as a core item on lucian is to rush it first, but since I mainly go BT-Shiv-LW or BT-Botrk-LW on lucian, and I dont really like shiv on Lucian but I really needed a filler item as "second", Ive been thinking of going Reaver->BT>LW or Reaver >TF>LW, or Reaver >Botrk>LW on Lucian. Obviously as a player who loves BT, general dislike of TF as an standard item, and only buys Botrk situationally, I was more inclined to go reaver -> bt> lw which replaces shiv as the "secondary item" I hope I explained myself enough :/ On June 12 2014 03:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: Interestingly, I think Zhonya's is an underrated item for ADC's. Against certain types of assassin's, it's much more useful than a Banshee's Veil, e.g., during the Age of Vi and Zed. My core build on ADCs if the opponent has 3 bruiser/assassin type is to go BT-Botrk-LW-Randuins. Zhonya isnt a bad item, but a lot of those "certain types of asssassins" are AD based...the Zhonya active also puts you in a sticky spot of being unable to kite and also dropping overall DPS for those 3 seconds tho...when the opponent has a bunch of AD bruiser I feel that its nicer to just build randuins and become an ranged AD bruiser with a lot of kiting potential + survivability | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On June 12 2014 03:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: Interestingly, I think Zhonya's is an underrated item for ADC's. Against certain types of assassin's, it's much more useful than a Banshee's Veil, e.g., during the Age of Vi and Zed. ADC zhonyas is the pandora's box of ADC discussion, you do not know what you're going to unleash. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On June 12 2014 03:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: Interestingly, I think Zhonya's is an underrated item for ADC's. Against certain types of assassin's, it's much more useful than a Banshee's Veil, e.g., during the Age of Vi and Zed. Vs vi yeah but vs zed qss is infinite times better.Right now with crucible and stuff zhonya is kinda useless doe. | ||
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