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Alright, we're going to call it a day with all the Thorin drama, guys. I figured if it was about SI, onGamers, TSM, etc, it had some relevance to League but somehow you guys managed to devolve the discussion into an issue about race of all things.
Enough is enough. Let's move along now.
-NeoIllusions |
On June 08 2014 03:41 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 18:51 EquilasH wrote:On June 07 2014 09:41 krndandaman wrote:
Let's put it this way.
Player A plays 50 champions. He is plat 2.
Player B plays 2 champions. He is plat 2.
Chances are A is better, no?
I do think that it is necessary to specialize if you are going to make it into challenger/pro though. There's no way around it. Teams don't need players that play all roles and those that specialize will have a huge advantage over you.
Chances are that Player A played for a longer time and Player B is improving at a faster rate. Obviously this is not prevelant in EVERY case but it is much easier to learn the game when you play specific champions - when you play 50 different champions you'll most likely learn less about the game and more about the champion you're playing. When playing on comfort champions you can focus on different skills. Edit: Basically what I'm saying is that if your goal is to learn the game, one of the most effective ways is to specialize and then when you get to the highest level you can start branching out. What you say makes sense, but in my experience it was the opposite. When I first started league, I played only the same champion (teemo) till like level 25. I started with a group of 3 friends other than myself. One is/was a quinn main, one an evelynn main, and one who plays like 50 champs. I started playing other champs since teemo got boring and improved really fast. I believe I placed straight into silver 3 and got gold within a month with 0 prior moba experience. I improved past the quinn and evelynn main in s3 who were plat and was around similar level as the other guy who played a lot of champs. I could also see a vast difference in the playstyle/mentality between the 2 groups of players. The champ mains knew the ins and out of their champions and did a lot of impressive things I didn't know worked. They knew nearly every matchup and what to do when ahead or behind. However, whenever they had to fill it was pretty bad and their shotcalling was god awful. Whenever we ranked 5s its me or the other guy who plays alot of champs who has to shotcall. I may be wrong, but I thought it was because we had a better understanding of the game in a broader sense. I might not know the exact damage output evelynn has with her 3 items, but I do know that X amount of champions with X items should be able to do baron and back safely within X time for example. However I do agree you should specialize once you reach a plateau. League doesn't need 5 people shotcalling and even then you'll have plenty of time to understand the game on a macroscale after you completely master a few champions. I'm trying to make my ranked champions played pool smaller since I'm slowly stagnating in my elo gain. However I do feel that people should play a diverse pool of champions until they reach that plateau. Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 22:46 Slayer91 wrote:On June 07 2014 10:58 krndandaman wrote:On June 07 2014 10:24 Slayer91 wrote:On June 07 2014 09:47 krndandaman wrote:On June 07 2014 09:42 VayneAuthority wrote:On June 07 2014 09:41 krndandaman wrote:
I'm more surprised that the vast majority of players on league are able to main 1 role let alone 1 champion. I get bored as fuck playing even 1 role 3 games in a row. yea i cant believe pro sports player just play point guard all day or striker or goalie. they must get bored as fuck playing the same thing all the time. TL;DR winning is fun enough for competitive people Not really a working analogy. You don't have 150 different champions to play and we are not pro players. Roles in basketball are also largely defined by your height. Whenever I play pick up basketball I don't always play pointguard. If I'm the shortest player, I'll probably play it. Even then, basketball is a lot different from league in that you can pretty much do anything other people do. You aren't limited by your role (unless of course you are a professional on a team). Come up with a better analogy. On June 07 2014 09:43 Slayer91 wrote:
lol dem sports players all 1 trick ponies
getting bored of playing the same shit happens when you cease to look for new things to try and mistakes that you made so you have something to work toward
theres very good reasons why people who stick to1 champ average much higher skill level Wasn't applied to pro players. I'm talking about the general populous on league. I disagree. We have over a 100 different champs to play in this game. Does it make any sense to limit yourself to just 1 champion? Sure if you wanna just gain elo you can just become a 1 trick pony and master the champion. Also the pros aren't 1 trick ponies. They are just exceptionally good at the role/champs they play but they would still smash most high elo players in other roles, especially with practice. It's no wonder pros don't really respect the 1 trick ponies. They are utterly useless in a competitive setting. I also disagree that higher elo = higher skill. It's a good marker for it but definitely not absolute. there are like 15 roles in rugby, or whatever 11 in american footbal, does it make sense to limit yourself to one positon? its the langauge you use is a problem, its not about limiting yourself its about focusing to increase your skill as much as possible in one area, and when you are finished you stop, unfortunately nobody is good enough to ever reach a skill ceiling so they just keep focusing in the same area unless they are required to switch for external reasons. pros dont respect the non pros unless they are like the top tier or solo q, so that argument doesnt mean anything, it wouldn't take a challenger 1 trick pony more than 10 games to be able to rape diamond players with a champ its the exact same argument you used for pros being able to rape people in offroles its the same thing with people who main 1 role/1 champ they tend to be significantly better at everything except champ specific skill on non main champs people who paly lots of champs arent better at regular champs, they are just equally bad on everything because its so much harder to learn with a new set of skills to work with every game I have no qualms with specializing in pro sports. I'm talking about casual players. I mean if your goal is to go pro, by all means specialize in a role (hopefully more than 1 champion though so you don't get banned out.) But if not, I think ignoring the other 100 or so champions in the game is a shame. It's just my opinion though, as I stated in the original post. By no means am I preaching the gospel here. I was just surprised that I'm not the norm since my general group of friends are also like me. I can't speak for all pros nor do I claim to have their opinion on this, but while watching qtpie's stream he was talking to kiwikid about challenger and he was shitting on 1 trick ponies pretty hard. I also remember him giving ups to hashinshin when someone listed him as a 1 trick pony. So there's that for you. Let's put it this way. Player A plays 50 champions. He is plat 2. Player B plays 2 champions. He is plat 2. Chances are A is better, no? I do think that it is necessary to specialize if you are going to make it into challenger/pro though. There's no way around it. Teams don't need players that play all roles and those that specialize will have a huge advantage over you. Same concept in BW for me. I had my strong race (zerg), but by no means did I play only zerg. My zerg was borderline B- while my protoss was C+ and terran borderline C+. But if you wanted to be pro you had to specialize, which was normal. It's just my preference as a casual player to want to play all the options available to me and I enjoy the game alot more playing new things. edit: Then again, I don't know why some people interpreted my post as "1 trick ponies suck you guys should play every champion and every role" On June 07 2014 09:41 krndandaman wrote:
I'm more surprised that the vast majority of players on league are able to main 1 role let alone 1 champion. I get bored as fuck playing even 1 role 3 games in a row. Key word: I Now that this turned into a 1 trick pony discussion: I don't think 1 trick ponies are bad, I just think they need to slightly evolve from that to actually have a chance at becoming pro. 1 role pony is fine, 1 champ pony no. as equilash pointed out your argument doesnt make sense. sure if you are both plat 2 the guy who plays 10x more champs is probably better but the time taken improve by playing 50 champions is probably also 10x as long. anyway nobody is forcing anyone to limit themselves or not enjoy other champions, its simply damn near a fact that if you want to get better you should play less champs. it doesnt mean you wont get better playing a lot of them its just you're going to improve a lot slower. you shouldn't think its shame if someone doesnt choose to play lots of champions because it can be a lot more fun to focus on getting better at one than what might be a frustrating experience of playing a lot of champs and doing mediocre most of the time. and arb is right you tend to get stomped for a while learning a totally new champ if you played a couple to diamond one but thats better than doing mediore in plat one and being able to learn a new champ and only losing 55% of the time right? also arb "there is literally no way to prove that" is a pretty dumb statement since you can't really get absolute proof but with a statisically certainty you can if you do enough testing. you can easily apply basic mathematical principles for a theoretical proof that cutting down on champ pool will increase winrate. (just about the only counter argument is understanding champs better when you play them, but thats a somewhat marginal case becaues you can just figure out how to play against a champion by analysis when you play against them without needing to play them a lot) For what its worth I don't know anyone who got diamond 1 without focusing on 2-3~ champs to get to that level originally and I know tons of people who play random shit every game and never get better. I also don't know anyone who only plays 2-3 champs and never got diamond 1. (fucking yttrasil still got d1 LOL) I mean if we break LoL skill down into roughly 3 things 1: How good you are at laning phase 2: How good you are at teamfighting 3: How good you are at knowing where/when to move around the map the first two are most directly affected by champion knowledge, and you you can analyze situations a lot either keeping your champion fixed. I said it in my response to equliash but I do agree that specializing is good once you reach a skill plateau. The only reason I felt it was a shame people don't play other champions was simply because I was in there shoes too. When I played only teemo I hated playing other champions since I would get stomped and I hated putting in the extra effort to learn a champ I would probably suck shit at anyways. Also there's so many fun champs in league so why not play around with them? Sometimes too much focus on getting better can take away from the original intent of playing this game- for fun. However once I started learning more champs I found out I could play a champ I've never played before and actually be pretty decent at it. I've played champs in ranked at my elo that I've only played like 2 times prior and still done well. The learning curve became much easier since I've gotten that much better at adapting/picking up new champions. I think my original post was taken in a way I didn't intend it to be. It didn't mean to be a blanketing statement that playing 1 champ is bad. It was my opinion that playing only 1 thing can be a drag. See where I never implied that doing so is bad for skill. Vayneauthority for some reason seemed to take my post that way and probably knows he misunderstood badly since he hasn't posted since.
you're just basing all of this off your personal experience then? when you self admittetly are not happy with your skill
you got mad because you got stomped with non teemo champs, the problem with that was you just sucked at the game, now you are slightly better at the game and you are equally bad enough at most champs that new champs arent that much worse
also being mad because you got stomped is a sign you arent focusing on improving, you want to have fun but your problem was you were too mcuh better at teemo than other champs so you went and played other champs until you were at the same skill level with those
you could easily have played teemo to like diamond 1 and then did the same thing except be a much better and more knowledgeable player if you invested more time into it
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I'm still waiting for that teleport data. Sufficiency pls.
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On June 07 2014 15:09 wei2coolman wrote:
Again, back to the whole "this neat trick for free elo! rioters hate him! challenger players want to be him!"
Again back to the whole ":roll: its W2C saying totally generic things which don't help anyone or provide insight into the game"
On June 07 2014 19:55 GolemMadness wrote:
This new ardent cleanser is going to be crazy on Karma. Just mantra E your whole team at the beginning of a fight, then with 40% CDR you can just keep the attack speed buff up on your ADC 100% of the time. I can't really see it making it into the game in its current state.
25% attack speed isn't much; the raw stats on the item are very low and the effective price of the attack speed for your carry very high unless you're scaling off MP/5 and Move Speed. In terms of "now stats" you're paying 1120 gold over Codex for 5 AP and 25% attack speed for your carry. That is not a good deal, its not even a great deal if you've got an AoE shield and multiple auto attackers.
I mean lets compare to the other marginally cheap AP/CDR/Move speed item: Spooky Ghosts. SG has similar move speed, but 50 more AP, and a pick/chase/scout active for only 600 gold more. For Karma, waiting on SG compared to Censor will provide her a lot more oomph in terms of chase/pick and also total team fight effect (bigger shields and Q's). Janna and Lulu probably have the same effect.
If we're talking about "Oh noes OP items", Ardent Censor probably isn't going to be one of them, the only champions who can really use it are Lulu and Janna because they provide auto attack steroids and are primarily peel supports. That is, their auto attack buffs increase the value of attack speed and the champions themselves don't really need that much raw stats. If Attack Speed really was that valuable in and of itself, then Nidalee would be a strong support because she can perma 60% attack speed with just 30% CDR. Or Nunu would be top tier duo lane due to blood boil.
But frankly there are four AD's who don't have a hard, or effective attack speed buff in their kit (Cait, Corki, Vayne, Ashe), one of which isn't played, one of which rushes attack speed, and one of which doesn't really need attack speed until late due to ability weaving. Only one of which has harder attack speed than damage scaling. Attack speed buffs and effective attack speed buffs reduce the effectiveness of attack speed. And the amount of attack speed we are talking about is super cheap.
There aren't that many other support champions on which this makes sense since they all need raw stats(maybe nami since she peels so hard with CDR) And there aren't that many AD's who benefit a lot from the item anyway because so few need attack speed so hard.
edit: Aside, the bevy of support items with CDR on them is kinda annoying. Because you build your GP/10 item which has 10-20% CDR and then you've got 5-10% from masteries and you're at 15-30% CDR right there. Then every other fucking support item has 10-20% CDR on it. Which you can't use because you're basically capped after one support item (or CDR boots), making the "cheap efficient items the support wants to buy" have a whole bunch of wasted stats.
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quick guys what do i do as pantheon top vs renekton. can i win?
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On June 08 2014 03:59 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 15:09 wei2coolman wrote:
Again, back to the whole "this neat trick for free elo! rioters hate him! challenger players want to be him!" Again back to the whole ":roll: its W2C saying totally generic things which don't help anyone or provide insight into the game"
There's no fucking thing as free elo. Don't know why this shit is still allowed in GD. "FREE ELO IF YOU JUST PLAY THIS 1 CHAMPION" or "DO THIS 1 THING TO GAIN ELO".
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On June 08 2014 03:56 Ketara wrote:
I'm still waiting for that teleport data. Sufficiency pls.
Oh hi. Totally forgot.
You should spank me in PMs.
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On June 08 2014 04:06 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2014 03:59 Goumindong wrote:On June 07 2014 15:09 wei2coolman wrote:
Again, back to the whole "this neat trick for free elo! rioters hate him! challenger players want to be him!" Again back to the whole ":roll: its W2C saying totally generic things which don't help anyone or provide insight into the game" There's no fucking thing as free elo. Don't know why this shit is still allowed in GD. "FREE ELO IF YOU JUST PLAY THIS 1 CHAMPION" or "DO THIS 1 THING TO GAIN ELO".
No one said that, they just said that warwick was especially strong in soloqueue because people don't build the items that counter him. Which is, i guess, a way of saying "lol frelo" but only on a level that suggests that literally nothing you could do would increase your ELO.
For some people changing the champions they play to champions which are stronger(either for the league they are in, or for their play style, or for their play advantages) will net them wins which they otherwise would not get on a consistent basis. That is, quite simply, the definition of "gaining elo".
And sure you're going to come in here and say "well the only way to gain ELO is to get better" and that is worthless bullshit which fails your own worthless bullshit standards. I mean really, every time someone gives advice you come in and say "DO THIS 1 THING TO GAIN ELO! THE THING IS 'GET BETTER'" is about as goosey and worthless as worthless goose shit can get.
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On June 08 2014 04:03 turdburgler wrote:
quick guys what do i do as pantheon top vs renekton. can i win?
yea, pantheon dumpsters renek.
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So what is everyone's "pocket pick" when it comes to solo Q? The champion that you try to go to if you get forced into a specific role, no matter how good/bad they might be currently? Here's my list:
Top: Riven
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Ziggs
ADC: Ezreal
Support: Leona
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On June 08 2014 04:23 Kinie wrote:
So what is everyone's "pocket pick" when it comes to solo Q? The champion that you try to go to if you get forced into a specific role, no matter how good/bad they might be currently? Here's my list:
Top: Riven
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Ziggs
ADC: Ezreal
Support: Leona
mid - fiora
any other role i can play comfortably
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Top: Someone that works with TP (LOLOLOL)
Mid: Syndra
Jungle: Lee
ADC: Lucian
Support: Morgana
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On June 08 2014 04:23 Kinie wrote:
So what is everyone's "pocket pick" when it comes to solo Q? The champion that you try to go to if you get forced into a specific role, no matter how good/bad they might be currently? Here's my list:
Top: Riven
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Ziggs
ADC: Ezreal
Support: Leona
Top: Morgana
Jungle: Morgana
Mid: Anything but Morgana
AD: Ashe
Support: Morgana
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On June 08 2014 03:50 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2014 02:46 Sufficiency wrote:
No. But the point was that genja does not soloQ So he's smart and he plays Ashe. God pls?
If God is Genja, humanity is so gonna relegated.
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On June 08 2014 04:23 Kinie wrote:
So what is everyone's "pocket pick" when it comes to solo Q? The champion that you try to go to if you get forced into a specific role, no matter how good/bad they might be currently? Here's my list:
Top: Riven
Jungle: Vi
Mid: Ziggs
ADC: Ezreal
Support: Leona
Top:shyvanna/singed
Jungle: lee sin/k6
Mid: I avoid the position at all cost, i fucking suck. (well i suck worse in mid)
ADC: Kog (recent pick up since he's gotten so fucking strong), Ez.
Support: Blitz.
On June 08 2014 04:21 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2014 04:06 wei2coolman wrote:On June 08 2014 03:59 Goumindong wrote:On June 07 2014 15:09 wei2coolman wrote:
Again, back to the whole "this neat trick for free elo! rioters hate him! challenger players want to be him!" Again back to the whole ":roll: its W2C saying totally generic things which don't help anyone or provide insight into the game" There's no fucking thing as free elo. Don't know why this shit is still allowed in GD. "FREE ELO IF YOU JUST PLAY THIS 1 CHAMPION" or "DO THIS 1 THING TO GAIN ELO". No one said that, they just said that warwick was especially strong in soloqueue because people don't build the items that counter him. Which is, i guess, a way of saying "lol frelo" but only on a level that suggests that literally nothing you could do would increase your ELO. For some people changing the champions they play to champions which are stronger(either for the league they are in, or for their play style, or for their play advantages) will net them wins which they otherwise would not get on a consistent basis. That is, quite simply, the definition of "gaining elo". And sure you're going to come in here and say "well the only way to gain ELO is to get better" and that is worthless bullshit which fails your own worthless bullshit standards. I mean really, every time someone gives advice you come in and say "DO THIS 1 THING TO GAIN ELO! THE THING IS 'GET BETTER'" is about as goosey and worthless as worthless goose shit can get.
It's one thing to ask questions about what you can do better, or questions on how to do certain things better. It's another to post "Learn to Cs and gain freelo" or "play ww gain free elo".
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Top: Jax (getting banned now that he's seen pro play, so Irelia)
Jungle: Vi, but I'm trying to broaden because popular picks and meta fuck her.
Mid: Viktor
AD: Graves or Ashe, depends. Mostly Graves but I do so bad I've tried Ashe for the utility and better scaling the last 2-3 AD games
Support: Lulu. I suck at Leona because I haven't played her in forever.
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top: irelia/renek
mid: kat/anivia
support: morg
jungle: vi
AD: jinx/cait
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On June 08 2014 04:23 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2014 04:03 turdburgler wrote:
quick guys what do i do as pantheon top vs renekton. can i win? yea, pantheon dumpsters renek.
thanks for the deep insight.
i won.
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EPT
