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On April 15 2014 06:02 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 05:56 krndandaman wrote:On April 15 2014 05:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Pretty sure jungle is the most important by far cause mid 1v1s are completely pointless when at any given moment a jungler shows up and you just die instantly or you kill the other guy instantly for free. There's no incentive to fight mid unless you see the jungler committed to doing something elsewhere, you're just farming, and if the othet guy isn't retarded, he'll just stay at his tower when his jungler is doing other stuff and visible on the map.
Mid is seriously a really dumb lane to play right now. idk, I always felt that if the mid fucks up your team is done for. I've done ridiculous come backs after feeding from various positions and hardly ever came from mid. You just lose so much map control if you lose mid. Likewise, if I have a feeding member of the team, it's impossible to carry if the feeder is mid. I've seen 0/10 adc's carried but even a 0/5 mid is just done for. The reason is probably that mids often do not splitpush (barring zed) and do not get a chance to catch up when behind. Their waveclear is needed to defend a push down mid. That's not entirely true. (The following is assuming the basic premise of the lane hasn't varied too much since end of S3) The thing is, mids shine and have the most influence over early-mid game. If they fuck up and fail early and can't catch back up, and the enemy mid is doing enough to increase their influence on the map and their team's objective taking, then yeah, it's very difficult to come back. But that's the nature of the lane/game. Mids have to be influential in some way. The burst damage (comparatively) is still good late game, but not nearly as good as sustained damage or tankiness or combination of the two is that you'd get from the other positions.
Soniv, your knowledge is quite a bit out of date from what the current meta is.
Right now its basically sit mid and wave clear/shove/hold mid tower until 3 items and the other lanes have done laning and decide to group. Maybe have a fight or two over dragon/buffs. If you pick a strong roamer you just get shoved under tower 24/7 and when you roam you basically need to have your jungler hold mid tower or else the tower dies.
This makes roaming very very high risk,where you need to basically get a kill or your behind.
One of the reasons I like Veigar alot right now is that hes one of the few mid lanes that can actually snowball hard right now, to the point where they can't lane mid anymore. There is not that many other champions that can do that. Hes also one of the few mids that can kill people 1v1.
Snowballing like that still relies on early jungle ganks though.
Honestly I think that athenes as an item needs to either completely die or lose its MR. Getting tanky + sustain + 20% cdr from one item is too strong and makes it too hard for the other mid laner to do anything. Athenes is one of the major factors to how boring mid has become.
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On April 15 2014 06:03 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 05:56 krndandaman wrote:On April 15 2014 05:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Pretty sure jungle is the most important by far cause mid 1v1s are completely pointless when at any given moment a jungler shows up and you just die instantly or you kill the other guy instantly for free. There's no incentive to fight mid unless you see the jungler committed to doing something elsewhere, you're just farming, and if the othet guy isn't retarded, he'll just stay at his tower when his jungler is doing other stuff and visible on the map.
Mid is seriously a really dumb lane to play right now. idk, I always felt that if the mid fucks up your team is done for. I've done ridiculous come backs after feeding from various positions and hardly ever came from mid. You just lose so much map control if you lose mid. Likewise, if I have a feeding member of the team, it's impossible to carry if the feeder is mid. I've seen 0/10 adc's carried but even a 0/5 mid is just done for. The reason is probably that mids often do not splitpush (barring zed) and do not get a chance to catch up when behind. Their waveclear is needed to defend a push down mid. The problem is usually it isn't that mid laner lost mid, but the other jungler that won it. Jungle just has so much of a massive impact on mid lane.
Not only is this true, but there are also times when it's your own jungler who loses mid lane for you.
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On April 15 2014 06:07 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 06:02 jcarlsoniv wrote:On April 15 2014 05:56 krndandaman wrote:On April 15 2014 05:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Pretty sure jungle is the most important by far cause mid 1v1s are completely pointless when at any given moment a jungler shows up and you just die instantly or you kill the other guy instantly for free. There's no incentive to fight mid unless you see the jungler committed to doing something elsewhere, you're just farming, and if the othet guy isn't retarded, he'll just stay at his tower when his jungler is doing other stuff and visible on the map.
Mid is seriously a really dumb lane to play right now. idk, I always felt that if the mid fucks up your team is done for. I've done ridiculous come backs after feeding from various positions and hardly ever came from mid. You just lose so much map control if you lose mid. Likewise, if I have a feeding member of the team, it's impossible to carry if the feeder is mid. I've seen 0/10 adc's carried but even a 0/5 mid is just done for. The reason is probably that mids often do not splitpush (barring zed) and do not get a chance to catch up when behind. Their waveclear is needed to defend a push down mid. That's not entirely true. (The following is assuming the basic premise of the lane hasn't varied too much since end of S3) The thing is, mids shine and have the most influence over early-mid game. If they fuck up and fail early and can't catch back up, and the enemy mid is doing enough to increase their influence on the map and their team's objective taking, then yeah, it's very difficult to come back. But that's the nature of the lane/game. Mids have to be influential in some way. The burst damage (comparatively) is still good late game, but not nearly as good as sustained damage or tankiness or combination of the two is that you'd get from the other positions. Soniv, your knowledge is quite a bit out of date from what the current meta is. Right now its basically sit mid and wave clear/shove/hold mid tower until 3 items and the other lanes have done laning and decide to group. Maybe have a fight or two over dragon/buffs. If you pick a strong roamer you just get shoved under tower 24/7 and when you roam you basically need to have your jungler hold mid tower or else the tower dies. This makes roaming very very high risk,where you need to basically get a kill or your behind.
I replied to your last post after I made mine. I acknowledge that I'm out of the loop =)
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Baa?21248 Posts
Ziggs also isn't even a top 3 contested pick in regions that matter for mid. He is picked and banned less than Lulu, Nidalee, LeBlanc in OGN and LPL, and that's just for mid ~_~
Pretty sure I've never seen a team first pick Ziggs.
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On April 15 2014 06:15 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 06:03 dae wrote:On April 15 2014 05:56 krndandaman wrote:On April 15 2014 05:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Pretty sure jungle is the most important by far cause mid 1v1s are completely pointless when at any given moment a jungler shows up and you just die instantly or you kill the other guy instantly for free. There's no incentive to fight mid unless you see the jungler committed to doing something elsewhere, you're just farming, and if the othet guy isn't retarded, he'll just stay at his tower when his jungler is doing other stuff and visible on the map.
Mid is seriously a really dumb lane to play right now. idk, I always felt that if the mid fucks up your team is done for. I've done ridiculous come backs after feeding from various positions and hardly ever came from mid. You just lose so much map control if you lose mid. Likewise, if I have a feeding member of the team, it's impossible to carry if the feeder is mid. I've seen 0/10 adc's carried but even a 0/5 mid is just done for. The reason is probably that mids often do not splitpush (barring zed) and do not get a chance to catch up when behind. Their waveclear is needed to defend a push down mid. The problem is usually it isn't that mid laner lost mid, but the other jungler that won it. Jungle just has so much of a massive impact on mid lane. So essentially mid has the most impact on the game, but is only made possible because jungle has the most impact on midlane. agree to disagree I guess lol
If you were to follow that logic, it would mean that jungle has most influence on game...
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Baa?21248 Posts
On April 15 2014 06:15 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 06:03 dae wrote:On April 15 2014 05:56 krndandaman wrote:On April 15 2014 05:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Pretty sure jungle is the most important by far cause mid 1v1s are completely pointless when at any given moment a jungler shows up and you just die instantly or you kill the other guy instantly for free. There's no incentive to fight mid unless you see the jungler committed to doing something elsewhere, you're just farming, and if the othet guy isn't retarded, he'll just stay at his tower when his jungler is doing other stuff and visible on the map.
Mid is seriously a really dumb lane to play right now. idk, I always felt that if the mid fucks up your team is done for. I've done ridiculous come backs after feeding from various positions and hardly ever came from mid. You just lose so much map control if you lose mid. Likewise, if I have a feeding member of the team, it's impossible to carry if the feeder is mid. I've seen 0/10 adc's carried but even a 0/5 mid is just done for. The reason is probably that mids often do not splitpush (barring zed) and do not get a chance to catch up when behind. Their waveclear is needed to defend a push down mid. The problem is usually it isn't that mid laner lost mid, but the other jungler that won it. Jungle just has so much of a massive impact on mid lane. So essentially mid has the most impact on the game, but is only made possible because jungle has the most impact on midlane. agree to disagree I guess lol
Why do people always "agree to disagree" when they're wrong and have no more evidence to back up their incorrect claims?
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On April 15 2014 06:14 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Ziggs also isn't even a top 3 contested pick in regions that matter for mid. He is picked and banned less than Lulu, Nidalee, LeBlanc in OGN and LPL, and that's just for mid ~_~
Pretty sure I've never seen a team first pick Ziggs.
Oh god I'm not even going to start on the stupidness that is Lulu mid.
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On April 15 2014 06:14 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Pretty sure I've never seen a team first pick Ziggs.
SKT 1 S hehe
Usually banned against them.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On April 15 2014 06:22 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 06:16 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On April 15 2014 06:15 krndandaman wrote:On April 15 2014 06:03 dae wrote:On April 15 2014 05:56 krndandaman wrote:On April 15 2014 05:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Pretty sure jungle is the most important by far cause mid 1v1s are completely pointless when at any given moment a jungler shows up and you just die instantly or you kill the other guy instantly for free. There's no incentive to fight mid unless you see the jungler committed to doing something elsewhere, you're just farming, and if the othet guy isn't retarded, he'll just stay at his tower when his jungler is doing other stuff and visible on the map.
Mid is seriously a really dumb lane to play right now. idk, I always felt that if the mid fucks up your team is done for. I've done ridiculous come backs after feeding from various positions and hardly ever came from mid. You just lose so much map control if you lose mid. Likewise, if I have a feeding member of the team, it's impossible to carry if the feeder is mid. I've seen 0/10 adc's carried but even a 0/5 mid is just done for. The reason is probably that mids often do not splitpush (barring zed) and do not get a chance to catch up when behind. Their waveclear is needed to defend a push down mid. The problem is usually it isn't that mid laner lost mid, but the other jungler that won it. Jungle just has so much of a massive impact on mid lane. So essentially mid has the most impact on the game, but is only made possible because jungle has the most impact on midlane. agree to disagree I guess lol Why do people always "agree to disagree" when they're wrong and have no more evidence to back up their incorrect claims? Look at the previous posts. I explained why I thought mid has the most impact. "The problem is usually it isn't that mid laner lost mid, but the other jungler that won it. Jungle has just so much of a massive impact on mid lane." He's essentially saying that mid lane is determined by the better jungler, and that is why jungler has the most impact on the game. So I'm agreeing to disagree if we follow his logic. Mid has the most impact on the game. Jungle has the most impact on the mid. Jungle has the most impact on the game. So let me answer back with a similar question. Why do people always try to call out others without properly reading posts?
But following that logic isn't a subjective matter. It's objectively correct, so by agreeing to disagree, you're wrong and you played the agree to disagree card in an attempt to make the issue into something that it's not.
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On April 14 2014 19:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Are lifesteal quints on ADC still worth it? Should I be running 3 now?
I switched mine out for 2 ArPen Quints (5%).
Lets me 2-shot caster creeps with Dorans+BF+LS/Scepter
I'm a fan.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On April 15 2014 06:21 -Zoda- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 06:14 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Pretty sure I've never seen a team first pick Ziggs. SKT 1 S hehe Usually banned against them.
Eh they first picked it twice and left it to last/second to last pick twice in OGN in the games where Ziggs wasn't banned. They're definitely the exception rather than the rule, and even they don't first pick Ziggs every game.
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On April 15 2014 06:26 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2014 19:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Are lifesteal quints on ADC still worth it? Should I be running 3 now? I switched mine out for 2 ArPen Quints (5%). Lets me 2-shot caster creeps with Dorans+BF+LS/Scepter I'm a fan.
I think most pros are using 2 AS quints 1 AD quint or something like that right now, I could be wrong though.
They basically advise to just get the extra auto in every trade and force trade vs people using lifesteal quints, the all in potential more then makes up for the loss of sustain.
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On April 15 2014 05:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
People also called Ziggs useless and underpowered for a year so fuck those people. Leave Ziggs alone. Ziggs has plenty of weaknesses people are just mad cause bad.
It's also simply a side effect of mid being a shitty lane and jungle dictating the entire game.
Eh, when I complained that he can too easily instapush and deny teams by dropping minefields (esp. since with 40% cdr it's a perma zone slow+big damage so you can't ever move in, and it's not that costly to maintain) you also told me off because he wasn't problematic or anything in your opinion. 
I'm not sure what to think of the guys who pick Renekton and Xin as solo laners when our first pick is jungle Vi, or deciding to go Vlad mid when the other team picked Orianna.
I guess maybe I wouldn't mind as much if they didn't start spouting bullshit once they've made somebody snowball and we're losing hard.
Feral is annoying in that with how it's overtuned atm even a bad guy who doesn't jungle well get a huge leeway wrt taking drakes or getting it fast when people feed them kills/assists, it compensates very easily for slopiness or sub-optimal jungle routes/game sense. It's a numbers thing so at least it should be easy to fix tho.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On April 15 2014 06:34 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 05:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
People also called Ziggs useless and underpowered for a year so fuck those people. Leave Ziggs alone. Ziggs has plenty of weaknesses people are just mad cause bad.
It's also simply a side effect of mid being a shitty lane and jungle dictating the entire game. Eh, when I complained that he can too easily instapush and deny teams by dropping minefields (esp. since with 40% cdr it's a perma zone slow+big damage so you can't ever move in, and it's not that costly to maintain) you also told me off because he wasn't problematic or anything in your opinion.
Right. It's not. I don't see why people think that's an issue when there are plenty of ways to play around it. Especially with the advent of Feral Flare split pushing junglers.
Just because when people only know how to group 5 and try to ARAM down mid and get owned by Ziggs doesn't mean Ziggs is OP lol.
FWIW I think Feral is a good item and I like the increased jungler diversity.
I don't play top so I don't really care.
ADC is fine. Supports like to bitch and martyr cause they always want to play the victim fuck them.
Mid is just a shit lane right now cause it's dictated by stupid junglers + stupid shit like Nidalee.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On April 15 2014 06:34 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 06:26 Nemireck wrote:On April 14 2014 19:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Are lifesteal quints on ADC still worth it? Should I be running 3 now? I switched mine out for 2 ArPen Quints (5%). Lets me 2-shot caster creeps with Dorans+BF+LS/Scepter I'm a fan. I think most pros are using 2 AS quints 1 AD quint or something like that right now, I could be wrong though. They basically advise to just get the extra auto in every trade and force trade vs people using lifesteal quints, the all in potential more then makes up for the loss of sustain.
Why 2 AS 1 AD and not 3 AD like it used to be before lifesteal got popular? Helps amp auto and spell damage, and helps with last hitting under turret as well.
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EPT
