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[Patch 4.4] CUDDLY INCOMING! ヽ(*・ω・)ノ - Page 50

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Dusty
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3359 Posts
March 21 2014 18:13 GMT
#981
On March 22 2014 03:00 Eppa! wrote:
I won't run LS if they nerf it. They barely eek out AD runes as is on ADC. The difference between getting BF vs pickaxe+vamp scepter is 10 ad and a slower BT.


...which is significant for dueling and laning...
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
March 21 2014 18:13 GMT
#982
On March 22 2014 02:59 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 02:57 nosliw wrote:
What tanky tops can lane safely against Renek? I've tried mundo, trundle and they both got shove into tower and lose trades ...

Vayne, and Ryze. But both of those are extremely hard to play matchup that requires no mistake in order to win lane.

Shyvana/Trundle should be able to lose lane just a little bit, but then outscale despite 20 or so cs deficit.

Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 02:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-03/osu-pab031914.php?_ga=1.177661477.1242348198.1380032472

All you Lucian players should feel ashamed.

Ehhh, most lucian players are usually more funny than ragey.


Trundle shouldn't have to give up anything in that lane. Don't be such a wuss and push the Crocodile off the wave at level 1.
I am the Town Medic.
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 18:18:06
March 21 2014 18:17 GMT
#983
--- Nuked ---
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
March 21 2014 18:19 GMT
#984
Its pretty sad that riot yet again change shit just to get people to buy stuff.They promised refunds yet I dont really see any.
killerdog
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark6522 Posts
March 21 2014 18:19 GMT
#985
On March 22 2014 03:09 Ketara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 02:31 Alzadar wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:25 Ketara wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:23 Alzadar wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:05 arb wrote:
On March 22 2014 01:44 Alzadar wrote:
Out with Armor Seals on every champ, in with Health Seals on every champ?

since you'll end up with higher armor regardless, i'd still see running armor runes anyway, too valuable to give up imo

i run scaling hp on some of my more squishy mids if im not vs an ad hero anyways


Lee Sin level 1 Base Stats:
513 health, 23.7 armor (counting the buff to all champions)

Masteries
I think standard with 9 Defense would be +36 health from Vet Scars and +3% max health from Juggernaut. Note that this is the best possible scenario in favour of armor, all the bonus health with no bonus armor.

Lee Sin with Armor Seals:
(513+36)1.03 = 565.47 health, 23.7+9 = 32.7 armor
750.38 effective health vs physical

Lee Sin with Health Seals:
(513+36+72)1.03 = 639.63 health, 23.7 armor
791.22 effective health vs physical

Considering that health is good versus magic and true damage as well, this brooks no argument. Flat Health runes will be completely superior to Flat Armor runes.


Armor scales with sustain, health does not.


True that.

5 health pots with Armor Seals = 597.15 effective health vs physical
5 health pots with Health Seals = 556.65
Difference is 40.5

This is basically exactly the same as the previous difference, rendering the two choices equal vs Physical when you consume 5 potions, BUT Health Seals are still better vs magic damage. Lifesteal can tip the scale back in Armor's favor.

Natural regen must be considered too, which means the two options might actually be very well balanced between each other.


As much as I want there to be a flat armor seals vs. flat HP seals debate, I don't think there is one.

You're saying a 40.5 effective HP difference, but armor seals scale with all the HP you get from levels, all your natural HP regen, all your potions, whatever sustain your champion has, lifesteal, shields and barrier, etc.

Flat health seals are like, cheesy level 1-2 all in seals. Over the course of a real game they're just not better.

You'd have to be a very specific champion who buys tons of resists and doesn't have innate regen to want flat HP seals, or be against an all AP team which doesn't really happen. The best realistic use for them would be in some sort of a lane counterpick rune page for a mid laner vs. an AP mid and an AP jungler who are big early game champions like Leblanc/Elise or something.


Even then, scaling health is flat out better after level 6, which is the first point that most laners will actually benefit from having a larger health pool due to needing to survive potential 100% all inns from lane opponents who have high damage ultimates.

The only place where you can force level 1-4 fights with where there is 100-0 kill pontential in the same engage, (assuming your opponent isn't being stupid,) is bot lane. Although given how the majority of the damage done down there is physical, I'd doubt it's worth it unless you want to try some super cheesy lvl 2/3 surprise all in against an x + annie botlane or something, and run hp seals + quints on your support to win it.
killerdog
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark6522 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 19:18:49
March 21 2014 18:21 GMT
#986
On March 22 2014 03:13 Dusty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 03:00 Eppa! wrote:
I won't run LS if they nerf it. They barely eek out AD runes as is on ADC. The difference between getting BF vs pickaxe+vamp scepter is 10 ad and a slower BT.


...which is significant for dueling and laning...

You would probably be stronger with vamp + pick + ad quints compared to bf + ls quints + 2 pots or w/e. Although as soon as your lane opponent finishes bt your lane is basically over, so you'd need to keep them in lane for like 8-10 minutes without letting either side back :p

edit: oops double >.>

editedit: oops
Dusty
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3359 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 18:29:11
March 21 2014 18:25 GMT
#987
On March 22 2014 03:21 killerdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 03:13 Dusty wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:00 Eppa! wrote:
I won't run LS if they nerf it. They barely eek out AD runes as is on ADC. The difference between getting BF vs pickaxe+vamp scepter is 10 ad and a slower BT.


...which is significant for dueling and laning...

You would probably be stronger with vamp + pick + ad quints compared to bt + ls quints + 2 pots or w/e. Although as soon as your lane opponent finishes bt your lane is basically over, so you'd need to keep them in lane for like 8-10 minutes without letting either side back :p

edit: oops double >.>


VAMP PLUS PICKAXE IS EQUAL TO BT

IVE HEARD IT ALL

edit: i think you meant vamp+axe vs BF + 2 pots? either way you're going to be very very very slightly stronger with vamp + axe and once he gets bt money you are fucked because you won't be able to compete easily since ie sucks for dueling and you're 875 gold behind your own BT unless your opponent is being dumb and stays after they have enough gold (they shouldnt)
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
March 21 2014 18:25 GMT
#988
i see no reason to change any of my runes, glad that's out of the way.
I come in for the scraps
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
March 21 2014 18:27 GMT
#989
On March 22 2014 03:19 killerdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 03:09 Ketara wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:31 Alzadar wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:25 Ketara wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:23 Alzadar wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:05 arb wrote:
On March 22 2014 01:44 Alzadar wrote:
Out with Armor Seals on every champ, in with Health Seals on every champ?

since you'll end up with higher armor regardless, i'd still see running armor runes anyway, too valuable to give up imo

i run scaling hp on some of my more squishy mids if im not vs an ad hero anyways


Lee Sin level 1 Base Stats:
513 health, 23.7 armor (counting the buff to all champions)

Masteries
I think standard with 9 Defense would be +36 health from Vet Scars and +3% max health from Juggernaut. Note that this is the best possible scenario in favour of armor, all the bonus health with no bonus armor.

Lee Sin with Armor Seals:
(513+36)1.03 = 565.47 health, 23.7+9 = 32.7 armor
750.38 effective health vs physical

Lee Sin with Health Seals:
(513+36+72)1.03 = 639.63 health, 23.7 armor
791.22 effective health vs physical

Considering that health is good versus magic and true damage as well, this brooks no argument. Flat Health runes will be completely superior to Flat Armor runes.


Armor scales with sustain, health does not.


True that.

5 health pots with Armor Seals = 597.15 effective health vs physical
5 health pots with Health Seals = 556.65
Difference is 40.5

This is basically exactly the same as the previous difference, rendering the two choices equal vs Physical when you consume 5 potions, BUT Health Seals are still better vs magic damage. Lifesteal can tip the scale back in Armor's favor.

Natural regen must be considered too, which means the two options might actually be very well balanced between each other.


As much as I want there to be a flat armor seals vs. flat HP seals debate, I don't think there is one.

You're saying a 40.5 effective HP difference, but armor seals scale with all the HP you get from levels, all your natural HP regen, all your potions, whatever sustain your champion has, lifesteal, shields and barrier, etc.

Flat health seals are like, cheesy level 1-2 all in seals. Over the course of a real game they're just not better.

You'd have to be a very specific champion who buys tons of resists and doesn't have innate regen to want flat HP seals, or be against an all AP team which doesn't really happen. The best realistic use for them would be in some sort of a lane counterpick rune page for a mid laner vs. an AP mid and an AP jungler who are big early game champions like Leblanc/Elise or something.


Even then, scaling health is flat out better after level 6, which is the first point that most laners will actually benefit from having a larger health pool due to needing to survive potential 100% all inns from lane opponents who have high damage ultimates.

The only place where you can force level 1-4 fights with where there is 100-0 kill pontential in the same engage, (assuming your opponent isn't being stupid,) is bot lane. Although given how the majority of the damage done down there is physical, I'd doubt it's worth it unless you want to try some super cheesy lvl 2/3 surprise all in against an x + annie botlane or something, and run hp seals + quints on your support to win it.


Scaling HP seals I think are situationally good even before this change and will become better.

Flat HP seals are what I'm saying are bad and are still going to be bad.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 18:29:47
March 21 2014 18:29 GMT
#990
On March 22 2014 03:25 Dusty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 03:21 killerdog wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:13 Dusty wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:00 Eppa! wrote:
I won't run LS if they nerf it. They barely eek out AD runes as is on ADC. The difference between getting BF vs pickaxe+vamp scepter is 10 ad and a slower BT.


...which is significant for dueling and laning...

You would probably be stronger with vamp + pick + ad quints compared to bt + ls quints + 2 pots or w/e. Although as soon as your lane opponent finishes bt your lane is basically over, so you'd need to keep them in lane for like 8-10 minutes without letting either side back :p

edit: oops double >.>


VAMP PLUS PICKAXE IS EQUAL TO BT

IVE HEARD IT ALL


I study math, can confirm that 10+25 is approximately 100.

He obviously meant BF though.
I am the Town Medic.
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
March 21 2014 18:30 GMT
#991
On March 22 2014 03:29 Alzadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 03:25 Dusty wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:21 killerdog wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:13 Dusty wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:00 Eppa! wrote:
I won't run LS if they nerf it. They barely eek out AD runes as is on ADC. The difference between getting BF vs pickaxe+vamp scepter is 10 ad and a slower BT.


...which is significant for dueling and laning...

You would probably be stronger with vamp + pick + ad quints compared to bt + ls quints + 2 pots or w/e. Although as soon as your lane opponent finishes bt your lane is basically over, so you'd need to keep them in lane for like 8-10 minutes without letting either side back :p

edit: oops double >.>


VAMP PLUS PICKAXE IS EQUAL TO BT

IVE HEARD IT ALL


I study math, can confirm that 10+25 is approximately 100.

He obviously meant BF though.

10+25 = 125. The numbers get merged and the middle 2 get added together to get 125.
God Bless
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23454 Posts
March 21 2014 18:33 GMT
#992
On March 22 2014 03:30 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 03:29 Alzadar wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:25 Dusty wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:21 killerdog wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:13 Dusty wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:00 Eppa! wrote:
I won't run LS if they nerf it. They barely eek out AD runes as is on ADC. The difference between getting BF vs pickaxe+vamp scepter is 10 ad and a slower BT.


...which is significant for dueling and laning...

You would probably be stronger with vamp + pick + ad quints compared to bt + ls quints + 2 pots or w/e. Although as soon as your lane opponent finishes bt your lane is basically over, so you'd need to keep them in lane for like 8-10 minutes without letting either side back :p

edit: oops double >.>


VAMP PLUS PICKAXE IS EQUAL TO BT

IVE HEARD IT ALL


I study math, can confirm that 10+25 is approximately 100.

He obviously meant BF though.

10+25 = 125. The numbers get merged and the middle 2 get added together to get 125.


logic checks out
+ Show Spoiler +


aka Teutonica
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
March 21 2014 18:33 GMT
#993
On March 22 2014 03:19 nafta wrote:
Its pretty sad that riot yet again change shit just to get people to buy stuff.They promised refunds yet I dont really see any.


Instead they give a SALE for one month! Man why don't they just remove runes and hire double the amount of artists so they can start producing more skins instead of wasting time on these stupid IP sinks.
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
March 21 2014 18:33 GMT
#994
On March 22 2014 03:09 Ketara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 02:31 Alzadar wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:25 Ketara wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:23 Alzadar wrote:
On March 22 2014 02:05 arb wrote:
On March 22 2014 01:44 Alzadar wrote:
Out with Armor Seals on every champ, in with Health Seals on every champ?

since you'll end up with higher armor regardless, i'd still see running armor runes anyway, too valuable to give up imo

i run scaling hp on some of my more squishy mids if im not vs an ad hero anyways


Lee Sin level 1 Base Stats:
513 health, 23.7 armor (counting the buff to all champions)

Masteries
I think standard with 9 Defense would be +36 health from Vet Scars and +3% max health from Juggernaut. Note that this is the best possible scenario in favour of armor, all the bonus health with no bonus armor.

Lee Sin with Armor Seals:
(513+36)1.03 = 565.47 health, 23.7+9 = 32.7 armor
750.38 effective health vs physical

Lee Sin with Health Seals:
(513+36+72)1.03 = 639.63 health, 23.7 armor
791.22 effective health vs physical

Considering that health is good versus magic and true damage as well, this brooks no argument. Flat Health runes will be completely superior to Flat Armor runes.


Armor scales with sustain, health does not.


True that.

5 health pots with Armor Seals = 597.15 effective health vs physical
5 health pots with Health Seals = 556.65
Difference is 40.5

This is basically exactly the same as the previous difference, rendering the two choices equal vs Physical when you consume 5 potions, BUT Health Seals are still better vs magic damage. Lifesteal can tip the scale back in Armor's favor.

Natural regen must be considered too, which means the two options might actually be very well balanced between each other.


As much as I want there to be a flat armor seals vs. flat HP seals debate, I don't think there is one.

You're saying a 40.5 effective HP difference, but armor seals scale with all the HP you get from levels, all your natural HP regen, all your potions, whatever sustain your champion has, lifesteal, shields and barrier, etc.

Flat health seals are like, cheesy level 1-2 all in seals. Over the course of a real game they're just not better.

You'd have to be a very specific champion who buys tons of resists and doesn't have innate regen to want flat HP seals, or be against an all AP team which doesn't really happen. The best realistic use for them would be in some sort of a lane counterpick rune page for a mid laner vs. an AP mid and an AP jungler who are big early game champions like Leblanc/Elise or something.


Going back to Lee Sin, Armor Seals are giving you 7.65 EHPP per level while Health Seals give you 2.6 EHPP per level. 5 potions were already taken into account.

Scaling vs Flat is going to become more interesting, at least.
I am the Town Medic.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 18:43:30
March 21 2014 18:34 GMT
#995
On March 22 2014 03:19 nafta wrote:
Its pretty sad that riot yet again change shit just to get people to buy stuff.They promised refunds yet I dont really see any.

they only promised refunds if a rune was removed or drastically changed. None of the runes were removed and the changes are all rather minor tbh.

Flat HP seals suck. They're basically a slightly better version of the Runic Shield mastery. If you compare them to the scaling HP seals they're even worse. You're looking at 12 hp at level 1 with scaling versus 72 with flat. That's only a 60 hp difference - you're better off going scaling + Runic shield mastery, especially considering how scaling overtakes flat at level 6. Regardless, hp seals are probably still worse on most champs except maybe those that get a ton of free resists like Shyvana.

I also think scaling armor is probably better than flat armor now. 9x scaling gives 1.5 armor at level 1, so it's a difference of 7.5 armor. However, all champs got +4 armor as a buff and none of the penetration runes got any change so realistically it's more like a 3.5 armor difference when compared to live play. Then you consider the fact that scaling catches up with flat at level 6 and scaling looks a ton more appealing.

EDIT: I word and maths gud
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
March 21 2014 18:58 GMT
#996
Scaling armor I think will be good in a lot of matchups.

I imagine you'll see lots of bruiser/tank rune pages where if you're in a solo lane vs. an AP you'll take scaling armor and flat mr, and if you're vs. an AD you'll take flat armor and scaling MR.

I imagine scaling armor will be good on junglers who have easy first clears too.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Nos-
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada12016 Posts
March 21 2014 19:08 GMT
#997
On March 22 2014 03:21 killerdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 03:13 Dusty wrote:
On March 22 2014 03:00 Eppa! wrote:
I won't run LS if they nerf it. They barely eek out AD runes as is on ADC. The difference between getting BF vs pickaxe+vamp scepter is 10 ad and a slower BT.


...which is significant for dueling and laning...

You would probably be stronger with vamp + pick + ad quints compared to bt + ls quints + 2 pots or w/e. Although as soon as your lane opponent finishes bt your lane is basically over, so you'd need to keep them in lane for like 8-10 minutes without letting either side back :p

edit: oops double >.>

I really dislike going pickaxe after vamp cause it delays my bf item, and it's not like i'm gonna finish my lw first or some shit. I guess if you're going for ie first but then why'd you spend 800 on vamp in the first place.
Bronze player stuck in platinum
Eppa!
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden4641 Posts
March 21 2014 19:13 GMT
#998
You go BT first anyway because IE sucks. The difference would be what you can do with AD quints before first back and the extra LS before they get BT which is the time you most often go for first drake.
"Can't wait till Monday" Cixah+Waveofshadow. "Needs to be monday. Weekend please go by quickly." Gahlo
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
March 21 2014 19:13 GMT
#999
On March 22 2014 03:33 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 03:19 nafta wrote:
Its pretty sad that riot yet again change shit just to get people to buy stuff.They promised refunds yet I dont really see any.


Instead they give a SALE for one month! Man why don't they just remove runes and hire double the amount of artists so they can start producing more skins instead of wasting time on these stupid IP sinks.


multicolored customizable size 3d shiny skins for glyphs and quints and runes coming soon to a rift near you
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
March 21 2014 19:26 GMT
#1000
On March 22 2014 03:34 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2014 03:19 nafta wrote:
Its pretty sad that riot yet again change shit just to get people to buy stuff.They promised refunds yet I dont really see any.

they only promised refunds if a rune was removed or drastically changed. None of the runes were removed and the changes are all rather minor tbh.

Flat HP seals suck. They're basically a slightly better version of the Runic Shield mastery. If you compare them to the scaling HP seals they're even worse. You're looking at 12 hp at level 1 with scaling versus 72 with flat. That's only a 60 hp difference - you're better off going scaling + Runic shield mastery, especially considering how scaling overtakes flat at level 6. Regardless, hp seals are probably still worse on most champs except maybe those that get a ton of free resists like Shyvana.

I also think scaling armor is probably better than flat armor now. 9x scaling gives 1.5 armor at level 1, so it's a difference of 7.5 armor. However, all champs got +4 armor as a buff and none of the penetration runes got any change so realistically it's more like a 3.5 armor difference when compared to live play. Then you consider the fact that scaling catches up with flat at level 6 and scaling looks a ton more appealing.

EDIT: I word and maths gud

Huh? No, it's still a 7.5 armor difference when compared to live play, your logic makes no sense there
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
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