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On February 11 2014 19:46 Dusty wrote:
Every single time Kayle starts getting played again, within the next patch you know to expect an instant nerf. In the past year Kayle barely got play time except for a bit during the summertime when Zed was popular (and even then, not really) and the reason she keeps getting nerfed is because she gets picked a tiny bit in pro matches. Fucking awful balance team working at Riot.
And I'm not trying to say that Kayle isn't too strong at the moment because if winrates are indicative of anything, she definitely needs to be nerfed, but I think the way that Riot is trying to balance her is terrible.
I don't understand.
They're nerfing a champion that you say needs to be nerfed when it becomes apparent it needs to be nerfed.
And that's a bad thing?
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On February 11 2014 19:46 Dusty wrote:
Every single time Kayle starts getting played again, within the next patch you know to expect an instant nerf. In the past year Kayle barely got play time except for a bit during the summertime when Zed was popular (and even then, not really) and the reason she keeps getting nerfed is because she gets picked a tiny bit in pro matches. Fucking awful balance team working at Riot.
And I'm not trying to say that Kayle isn't too strong at the moment because if winrates are indicative of anything, she definitely needs to be nerfed, but I think the way that Riot is trying to balance her is terrible.
Kinda have to agree with this sentiment. Kayle is a sustained DPS mage, much like cassiopeia. Blowing up a squishy lategame with Q+2 autos isn't a trait unique to kayle. A TON of other AP's can also combo a squishy once you're in the 500+AP range. This nerf basically took away an auto's worth of damage for every Q she threw out. I'd honestly rather have seen like a .05-.1 nerf on her E, and left Q as it is, especially with the way her W scales now. Encourage the kiting, but keep the Q as a burst spell for after an auto or two has landed because the Q is a relatively larger portion of the damage and you want to amp it as much as possible.
The utility scaling on Kayles heal is going to be pretty laughable. So she can reposition faster now, and her heal does slightly more. The heal was hardly used for healing until mid-lategame anyways because the amount was so low, if you needed to keep somebody alive, it was ult, not the healing that did it. The movement portion will let somebody kite more lategame, but with the massive DR you're running into, people will MAYBE hit the 600ms range at best with full build.
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Its more that for other champs they usually either do a series of smalls changes over a few patchs or do a big change months after the champ has been considered too strong. Kayle just get instantly targeted the second she gets popular
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On February 11 2014 20:20 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:46 Dusty wrote:
Every single time Kayle starts getting played again, within the next patch you know to expect an instant nerf. In the past year Kayle barely got play time except for a bit during the summertime when Zed was popular (and even then, not really) and the reason she keeps getting nerfed is because she gets picked a tiny bit in pro matches. Fucking awful balance team working at Riot.
And I'm not trying to say that Kayle isn't too strong at the moment because if winrates are indicative of anything, she definitely needs to be nerfed, but I think the way that Riot is trying to balance her is terrible. Kinda have to agree with this sentiment. Kayle is a sustained DPS mage, much like cassiopeia. Blowing up a squishy lategame with Q+2 autos isn't a trait unique to kayle. A TON of other AP's can also combo a squishy once you're in the 500+AP range. This nerf basically took away an auto's worth of damage for every Q she threw out. I'd honestly rather have seen like a .05-.1 nerf on her E, and left Q as it is, especially with the way her W scales now. Encourage the kiting, but keep the Q as a burst spell for after an auto or two has landed because the Q is a relatively larger portion of the damage and you want to amp it as much as possible. The utility scaling on Kayles heal is going to be pretty laughable. So she can reposition faster now, and her heal does slightly more. The heal was hardly used for healing until mid-lategame anyways because the amount was so low, if you needed to keep somebody alive, it was ult, not the healing that did it. The movement portion will let somebody kite more lategame, but with the massive DR you're running into, people will MAYBE hit the 600ms range at best with full build.
Kayle is a sustained DPS mage, yes. That's why nerfing her burst but not her sustain makes sense. She is supposed to do huge sustained damage but not as much burst. As it is now she has similar burst to champs like Gragas, but with far more sustain. I'd much prefer they nerf her burst and keep her sustain dps niche intact.
That said I think the nerf might be a bit too much.
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On February 11 2014 20:20 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:46 Dusty wrote:
Every single time Kayle starts getting played again, within the next patch you know to expect an instant nerf. In the past year Kayle barely got play time except for a bit during the summertime when Zed was popular (and even then, not really) and the reason she keeps getting nerfed is because she gets picked a tiny bit in pro matches. Fucking awful balance team working at Riot.
And I'm not trying to say that Kayle isn't too strong at the moment because if winrates are indicative of anything, she definitely needs to be nerfed, but I think the way that Riot is trying to balance her is terrible. Kinda have to agree with this sentiment. Kayle is a sustained DPS mage, much like cassiopeia. Blowing up a squishy lategame with Q+2 autos isn't a trait unique to kayle. A TON of other AP's can also combo a squishy once you're in the 500+AP range.
But how many of those are sustained DPS mages? Isn't 500+ 3-4 item range, including a Dcap, where Kayle can do it with 2? Don't really see how they should have gone any other way when it comes to nerfing her conceptually. Maybe .7 should have been the way to go, but w/e.
Yes, this is the 4th time she's been nerfed since S3, but if she's taken all those nerfs and is still played... don't you think it was worth it? It's not like any of the previous changes have made her god awful unplayable.
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On February 11 2014 20:21 GranDim wrote:
Its more that for other champs they usually either do a series of smalls changes over a few patchs or do a big change months after the champ has been considered too strong. Kayle just get instantly targeted the second she gets popular
This is right though. Elise/Thresh first pick/ban for a year ? No problemo. Renekton best top laner for 3 seasons ? Not touched once. Kayle first pick/ban for 1 month ? halve her ap ratio.
Look at the number of nerfs thresh has eaten since release it's absolutely ridiculous and yet trust me, he will still be first picked in all regions.
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On February 11 2014 20:34 RouaF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:21 GranDim wrote:
Its more that for other champs they usually either do a series of smalls changes over a few patchs or do a big change months after the champ has been considered too strong. Kayle just get instantly targeted the second she gets popular This is right though. Elise/Thresh first pick/ban for a year ? No problemo. Renekton best top laner for 3 seasons ? Not touched once. Kayle first pick/ban for 1 month ? halve her ap ratio. Look at the number of nerfs thresh has eaten since release it's absolutely ridiculous and yet trust me, he will still be first picked in all regions.
Elise and Thresh are flawed by concept. You cant fix them without scrapping them. After Olaf, they've obviously decided against that avenue.
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No gragas nerfs :D Fatman Freelo train continues
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On February 11 2014 20:31 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:20 Amui wrote:On February 11 2014 19:46 Dusty wrote:
Every single time Kayle starts getting played again, within the next patch you know to expect an instant nerf. In the past year Kayle barely got play time except for a bit during the summertime when Zed was popular (and even then, not really) and the reason she keeps getting nerfed is because she gets picked a tiny bit in pro matches. Fucking awful balance team working at Riot.
And I'm not trying to say that Kayle isn't too strong at the moment because if winrates are indicative of anything, she definitely needs to be nerfed, but I think the way that Riot is trying to balance her is terrible. Kinda have to agree with this sentiment. Kayle is a sustained DPS mage, much like cassiopeia. Blowing up a squishy lategame with Q+2 autos isn't a trait unique to kayle. A TON of other AP's can also combo a squishy once you're in the 500+AP range. But how many of those are sustained DPS mages? Isn't 500+ 3-4 item range, including a Dcap, where Kayle can do it with 2? Don't really see how they should have gone any other way when it comes to nerfing her conceptually. Maybe .7 should have been the way to go, but w/e. Yes, this is the 4th time she's been nerfed since S3, but if she's taken all those nerfs and is still played... don't you think it was worth it? It's not like any of the previous changes have made her god awful unplayable.
I guess I just dislike the balance team's decision to (IMO) grossly overreact&kneejerk nerf(she does need nerf, but not that badly I think), as well as to not try and get less picked champs back into play. Urgot for example doesn't even have a bad kit. His kit works well. It would literally take a couple number tweaks(attack range up to 450, Q lock range increased by 100, ulti range increase by 100/50/0, minor buffs compared to the nerfs he ate), and he'd see competitive play from more than just yellowpete. But because Riot loves their meta, and can't have a non-auto centric carry in bottom lane, he gets put on rework(he's unplayed because you nerfed him into the ground, not because he wasn't fun to play or he had a bad kit). Or champs like alistar and ryze, who got nerfed because they were at their strongest in a certain meta, and never got buffed enough to compensate when the game changed.
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Australia18228 Posts
On February 11 2014 20:20 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 19:46 Dusty wrote:
Every single time Kayle starts getting played again, within the next patch you know to expect an instant nerf. In the past year Kayle barely got play time except for a bit during the summertime when Zed was popular (and even then, not really) and the reason she keeps getting nerfed is because she gets picked a tiny bit in pro matches. Fucking awful balance team working at Riot.
And I'm not trying to say that Kayle isn't too strong at the moment because if winrates are indicative of anything, she definitely needs to be nerfed, but I think the way that Riot is trying to balance her is terrible. Kinda have to agree with this sentiment. Kayle is a sustained DPS mage, much like cassiopeia. Blowing up a squishy lategame with Q+2 autos isn't a trait unique to kayle. A TON of other AP's can also combo a squishy once you're in the 500+AP range. This nerf basically took away an auto's worth of damage for every Q she threw out. I'd honestly rather have seen like a .05-.1 nerf on her E, and left Q as it is, especially with the way her W scales now. Encourage the kiting, but keep the Q as a burst spell for after an auto or two has landed because the Q is a relatively larger portion of the damage and you want to amp it as much as possible.
Problem is she can do it with just Nashors + Lichbane.
I think the main problem is LB, just does too much damage on any AP who utilises AAs.
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On February 11 2014 21:22 Inflicted_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 20:20 Amui wrote:On February 11 2014 19:46 Dusty wrote:
Every single time Kayle starts getting played again, within the next patch you know to expect an instant nerf. In the past year Kayle barely got play time except for a bit during the summertime when Zed was popular (and even then, not really) and the reason she keeps getting nerfed is because she gets picked a tiny bit in pro matches. Fucking awful balance team working at Riot.
And I'm not trying to say that Kayle isn't too strong at the moment because if winrates are indicative of anything, she definitely needs to be nerfed, but I think the way that Riot is trying to balance her is terrible. Kinda have to agree with this sentiment. Kayle is a sustained DPS mage, much like cassiopeia. Blowing up a squishy lategame with Q+2 autos isn't a trait unique to kayle. A TON of other AP's can also combo a squishy once you're in the 500+AP range. This nerf basically took away an auto's worth of damage for every Q she threw out. I'd honestly rather have seen like a .05-.1 nerf on her E, and left Q as it is, especially with the way her W scales now. Encourage the kiting, but keep the Q as a burst spell for after an auto or two has landed because the Q is a relatively larger portion of the damage and you want to amp it as much as possible. Problem is she can do it with just Nashors + Lichbane. I think the main problem is LB, just does too much damage on any AP who utilises AAs.
Yes LeBlanc does too much damage too 
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On February 11 2014 21:28 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 21:22 Inflicted_ wrote:On February 11 2014 20:20 Amui wrote:On February 11 2014 19:46 Dusty wrote:
Every single time Kayle starts getting played again, within the next patch you know to expect an instant nerf. In the past year Kayle barely got play time except for a bit during the summertime when Zed was popular (and even then, not really) and the reason she keeps getting nerfed is because she gets picked a tiny bit in pro matches. Fucking awful balance team working at Riot.
And I'm not trying to say that Kayle isn't too strong at the moment because if winrates are indicative of anything, she definitely needs to be nerfed, but I think the way that Riot is trying to balance her is terrible. Kinda have to agree with this sentiment. Kayle is a sustained DPS mage, much like cassiopeia. Blowing up a squishy lategame with Q+2 autos isn't a trait unique to kayle. A TON of other AP's can also combo a squishy once you're in the 500+AP range. This nerf basically took away an auto's worth of damage for every Q she threw out. I'd honestly rather have seen like a .05-.1 nerf on her E, and left Q as it is, especially with the way her W scales now. Encourage the kiting, but keep the Q as a burst spell for after an auto or two has landed because the Q is a relatively larger portion of the damage and you want to amp it as much as possible. Problem is she can do it with just Nashors + Lichbane. I think the main problem is LB, just does too much damage on any AP who utilises AAs. Yes LeBlanc does too much damage too
I don't think anybody would argue otherwise.
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Do riot play thier own game?, bot lane is a boring NIGHTMARE to play those days, support players are on a terrible position...regardless of your skill level you will pick and do good with[of course buy doran and mobi!]
Thresh "Free elo xd" express: has every tool you want and more, op as hell but only 25 range nerf "i main thresh i was bronze now plat i got better xd"
Leona super tank, stunlock, wont die, super simple to use "i main leona combo is hard dude xd"
Annie stuns and major damage "have you seen my new elo?, its good and i'm annie main xd"
Riot need to just kill them off stats and skill wise so we wil see real options and diversity in bot lane, i'm sick of this.
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On February 11 2014 20:59 57 Corvette wrote:
No gragas nerfs :D Fatman Freelo train continues
Daniel Klein posted on Reddit saying that they are looking at Gragas, but didn't want to "Olaf" him in the interim. I would expect them in the next patch.
EDIT: Also, has anyone played new Xerath yet? What the hell does 5000 range look like on that rank 3 ult?
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On February 11 2014 21:37 Sarah Bryant wrote:
Do riot play thier own game?, bot lane is a boring NIGHTMARE to play those days, support players are on a terrible position...regardless of your skill level you will pick and do good with[of course buy doran and mobi!]
Thresh "Free elo xd" express: has every tool you want and more, op as hell but only 25 range nerf "i main thresh i was bronze now plat i got better xd"
Leona super tank, stunlock, wont die, super simple to use "i main leona combo is hard dude xd"
Annie stuns and major damage "have you seen my new elo?, its good and i'm annie main xd"
Riot need to just kill them off stats and skill wise so we wil see real options and diversity in bot lane, i'm sick of this.
Just going to leave a note that the perseverance nerf hits Thresh and Leona too, since they usually go far enough(or fully) down the tree to grab it.
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England6749 Posts
it affected them, but their health regen is still absolutely bonkers. but on the flipside if supports didnt have hp regen what would they have?
i honestly believe the way the bot lane meta is shifting if the dorans shield nerf goes live thresh's first item will become dorans blade over shield. the whole role of the duo is set up (at least in solo queue) to be about killing the other adc at all costs, trading adc for the support is a huge win. if shield stops being so massively powerful at early levels, having 8 extra damage per hit on threshes harass will be huge. combine with with AD quints instead of health and you have a brutal all in.
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Well, clearly the support revamp they tried to do to taric/soraka/sona/jenny/lulu FAILED. Sure they got cool tools now but they cant compare to the 3 top monsters.
Since revamping old support failed, its time to attack the problem from another direction and nerf to the ground the big3
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Or buff to the skies the others.
Xerath's range at level 16 is close to Ziggs'.
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England6749 Posts
On February 11 2014 21:48 Sarah Bryant wrote:
Well, clearly the support revamp they tried to do to taric/soraka/sona/jenny/lulu FAILED. Sure they got cool tools now but they cant compare to the 3 top monsters.
Since revamping old support failed, its time to attack the problem from another direction and nerf to the ground the big3
how does that solve the problem at all. nerfing leona and thresh will just make a new 2 or 3 supports fotm, if riot refuses to commit to achieving real balance then just cycling through each 'op' champ and nerfing them achieves nothing. and the fact that they have consistantly released op champions and nerfed older releases honestly just stinks of money grabbing. its in their interest for the op champ to change every month, rather than make a more balance game, and its in their interest that the champion that is going to be op for next month is a new release, or at least an expensive champion.
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EPT
