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Feudal Yasuo makes my brain hurt.
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On February 09 2014 04:59 Gahlo wrote:
Feudal Yasuo makes my brain hurt.
Why?
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quick question: if I gain 12lp per win, and lose 21 per lose, does it mean i'm in higher or lower division than i'm supposed to be?
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On February 09 2014 04:53 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 04:15 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke. Udyr being kited as a problem is just complete nonsense just like nasus being kited was. They changed nasus mana problems and for a while he was considered to be totally broken. They both lack ranged damage and burst damage. Normally either you have one or the other. In 1 vs 1 they are strong because their gap closers are actually really good and in team based having more enemies also means you have more allies. The problem is when your cc isn't that great your sole purpose is to do damage and you have a problem sticking to people. Olaf has the same problem, but he has better burst and a bit of ranged damage. I heard he's gotten popular again since the rework, but don't forget before the buff he was considered one of the worst champions in the game on this forum and the points you made didn't even change a bit. Udyr was possibly too strong too when they changed his passive to give free resists, gambit picked him up again and started doing well and then they nerfed it to a shitty movement speed buff. Naturally the weakness of a champion who has no burst damage and little CC is always going to be how easy it is to kill them (ADCs share this weakness) so you need even tons of sustained damage, some kind of range, or high tankiness. (pick 2) Comparing waveclear and jungle speed is also pretty dumb, since they both excel at that. Being low hp in the jungle is a weakness, while udyr stays full, but in terms of potential sustained damage olaf is higher, but the exchange is that he is a lot less tanky and has no mobility built into his kit at all. The things making them OP/UP/viable/unviable whatever you want to label are just number tweaking. Udyr passive to give 9% increased resists was too strong and olaf back when CLG's were in korea was too strong as well. Udyr and Nasus are two entirely different things because of Wither. When they messed with Nasus they did FAR more than just fix mana problems. Nasus has ranged tools that Udyr just doesn't. Olaf's cc is more easily applied. Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year. With current jungle items, who actually gets low in the jungle anymore? Olaf gets 10/20/30 resists while not ulting, which puts him midway between normal/dragon form shyvana in terms of tankyness on even farm. As far as mobility, chain axes royally fuck up your opponents mobility. With 20% cdr(blue/jungle item) and axe pickup the cd is under 2 seconds.
Like, to be fair, Udyr has a lot of tools that help him do things too, and I feel like you're playing up Olaf's strengths without doing the same for Udyr. He has a skill that can stun 5 people that gives him a MS boost. It's not always easy to kite an Udyr. He's tanky as balls and he's a lot safer in the jungle on the clear that matters the most.
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Wayyyyyyyy higher than where you belong
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On February 09 2014 04:59 Yezzus wrote:Why?
Because it confuses me why it wasn't his base. League is severely lacking a visual samurai that doesn't have a price tag.
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On February 09 2014 04:53 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 04:15 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke. Udyr being kited as a problem is just complete nonsense just like nasus being kited was. They changed nasus mana problems and for a while he was considered to be totally broken. They both lack ranged damage and burst damage. Normally either you have one or the other. In 1 vs 1 they are strong because their gap closers are actually really good and in team based having more enemies also means you have more allies. The problem is when your cc isn't that great your sole purpose is to do damage and you have a problem sticking to people. Olaf has the same problem, but he has better burst and a bit of ranged damage. I heard he's gotten popular again since the rework, but don't forget before the buff he was considered one of the worst champions in the game on this forum and the points you made didn't even change a bit. Udyr was possibly too strong too when they changed his passive to give free resists, gambit picked him up again and started doing well and then they nerfed it to a shitty movement speed buff. Naturally the weakness of a champion who has no burst damage and little CC is always going to be how easy it is to kill them (ADCs share this weakness) so you need even tons of sustained damage, some kind of range, or high tankiness. (pick 2) Comparing waveclear and jungle speed is also pretty dumb, since they both excel at that. Being low hp in the jungle is a weakness, while udyr stays full, but in terms of potential sustained damage olaf is higher, but the exchange is that he is a lot less tanky and has no mobility built into his kit at all. The things making them OP/UP/viable/unviable whatever you want to label are just number tweaking. Udyr passive to give 9% increased resists was too strong and olaf back when CLG's were in korea was too strong as well. Udyr and Nasus are two entirely different things because of Wither. When they messed with Nasus they did FAR more than just fix mana problems. Nasus has ranged tools that Udyr just doesn't. Olaf's cc is more easily applied. Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year. With current jungle items, who actually gets low in the jungle anymore? Olaf gets 10/20/30 resists while not ulting, which puts him midway between normal/dragon form shyvana in terms of tankyness on even farm. As far as mobility, chain axes royally fuck up your opponents mobility. With 20% cdr(blue/jungle item) and axe pickup the cd is under 2 seconds.
every two champions are "entirely two different things" because they have two different sets of abilities lol..
"Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year."
that was the point I just made about tweaking numbers making him OP/UP despite the points you made about why he's so good being equally valid for both points.
The thing about his R passive is the time you want to avoid CC you also want to avoid damage, so you want those 30 resists most when you are ulting in, I think that was one of riots countermeasures for making sure he wasn't too hard to deal with when fed.
olaf gets low during first clear if you want to utilize his passive. you made a point about being low in the jungle increasing his speed but it increases risk also.
chain axes you have to trade be long range and long cd or short range and short cd, as a skillshot its doubly punishing if you miss because it increaes the distance the enemy can get away before you can shoot the next axe. Also having to catch axes gives the enemy a clear projection to hit their own skillshots since your movement is very predictable.
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On February 09 2014 05:02 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 04:59 Yezzus wrote:On February 09 2014 04:59 Gahlo wrote:
Feudal Yasuo makes my brain hurt. Why? Because it confuses me why it wasn't his base. League is severely lacking a visual samurai that doesn't have a price tag.
Yeah,,,that sketch looks perfect for him tbh
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On February 09 2014 05:01 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 04:53 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 04:15 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke. Udyr being kited as a problem is just complete nonsense just like nasus being kited was. They changed nasus mana problems and for a while he was considered to be totally broken. They both lack ranged damage and burst damage. Normally either you have one or the other. In 1 vs 1 they are strong because their gap closers are actually really good and in team based having more enemies also means you have more allies. The problem is when your cc isn't that great your sole purpose is to do damage and you have a problem sticking to people. Olaf has the same problem, but he has better burst and a bit of ranged damage. I heard he's gotten popular again since the rework, but don't forget before the buff he was considered one of the worst champions in the game on this forum and the points you made didn't even change a bit. Udyr was possibly too strong too when they changed his passive to give free resists, gambit picked him up again and started doing well and then they nerfed it to a shitty movement speed buff. Naturally the weakness of a champion who has no burst damage and little CC is always going to be how easy it is to kill them (ADCs share this weakness) so you need even tons of sustained damage, some kind of range, or high tankiness. (pick 2) Comparing waveclear and jungle speed is also pretty dumb, since they both excel at that. Being low hp in the jungle is a weakness, while udyr stays full, but in terms of potential sustained damage olaf is higher, but the exchange is that he is a lot less tanky and has no mobility built into his kit at all. The things making them OP/UP/viable/unviable whatever you want to label are just number tweaking. Udyr passive to give 9% increased resists was too strong and olaf back when CLG's were in korea was too strong as well. Udyr and Nasus are two entirely different things because of Wither. When they messed with Nasus they did FAR more than just fix mana problems. Nasus has ranged tools that Udyr just doesn't. Olaf's cc is more easily applied. Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year. With current jungle items, who actually gets low in the jungle anymore? Olaf gets 10/20/30 resists while not ulting, which puts him midway between normal/dragon form shyvana in terms of tankyness on even farm. As far as mobility, chain axes royally fuck up your opponents mobility. With 20% cdr(blue/jungle item) and axe pickup the cd is under 2 seconds. Like, to be fair, Udyr has a lot of tools that help him do things too, and I feel like you're playing up Olaf's strengths without doing the same for Udyr. He has a skill that can stun 5 people that gives him a MS boost. It's not always easy to kite an Udyr. He's tanky as balls and he's a lot safer in the jungle on the clear that matters the most.
I'm not the one saying that the other champion is garbage.
On February 09 2014 05:03 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 04:53 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 04:15 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke. Udyr being kited as a problem is just complete nonsense just like nasus being kited was. They changed nasus mana problems and for a while he was considered to be totally broken. They both lack ranged damage and burst damage. Normally either you have one or the other. In 1 vs 1 they are strong because their gap closers are actually really good and in team based having more enemies also means you have more allies. The problem is when your cc isn't that great your sole purpose is to do damage and you have a problem sticking to people. Olaf has the same problem, but he has better burst and a bit of ranged damage. I heard he's gotten popular again since the rework, but don't forget before the buff he was considered one of the worst champions in the game on this forum and the points you made didn't even change a bit. Udyr was possibly too strong too when they changed his passive to give free resists, gambit picked him up again and started doing well and then they nerfed it to a shitty movement speed buff. Naturally the weakness of a champion who has no burst damage and little CC is always going to be how easy it is to kill them (ADCs share this weakness) so you need even tons of sustained damage, some kind of range, or high tankiness. (pick 2) Comparing waveclear and jungle speed is also pretty dumb, since they both excel at that. Being low hp in the jungle is a weakness, while udyr stays full, but in terms of potential sustained damage olaf is higher, but the exchange is that he is a lot less tanky and has no mobility built into his kit at all. The things making them OP/UP/viable/unviable whatever you want to label are just number tweaking. Udyr passive to give 9% increased resists was too strong and olaf back when CLG's were in korea was too strong as well. Udyr and Nasus are two entirely different things because of Wither. When they messed with Nasus they did FAR more than just fix mana problems. Nasus has ranged tools that Udyr just doesn't. Olaf's cc is more easily applied. Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year. With current jungle items, who actually gets low in the jungle anymore? Olaf gets 10/20/30 resists while not ulting, which puts him midway between normal/dragon form shyvana in terms of tankyness on even farm. As far as mobility, chain axes royally fuck up your opponents mobility. With 20% cdr(blue/jungle item) and axe pickup the cd is under 2 seconds. every two champions are "entirely two different things" because they have two different sets of abilities lol.. "Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year." that was the point I just made about tweaking numbers making him OP/UP despite the points you made about why he's so good being equally valid for both points. The thing about his R passive is the time you want to avoid CC you also want to avoid damage, so you want those 30 resists most when you are ulting in, I think that was one of riots countermeasures for making sure he wasn't too hard to deal with when fed. olaf gets low during first clear if you want to utilize his passive. you made a point about being low in the jungle increasing his speed but it increases risk also. chain axes you have to trade be long range and long cd or short range and short cd, as a skillshot its doubly punishing if you miss because it increaes the distance the enemy can get away before you can shoot the next axe. Also having to catch axes gives the enemy a clear projection to hit their own skillshots since your movement is very predictable.
They're "two different things" because their main criticism is far weaker for one than another. You lumped them together, inferring that it affected them similarly. What numbers were doesn't matter because nobody plays on patches old enough for there to be a difference on either champion. I'm talking about here and now.
And if Udyr doesn't often switch to turtle so he can keep higher damage, he doesn't have much tank to him at all. Both of them make trades to do what they want. I haven't done clear times with Olaf, but I'm pretty sure he does a decent time without having to balance on the edge of a knife.
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Which proves nothing.
warwick was total garbage according to most people before darien picked him
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On February 09 2014 05:01 Yezzus wrote:
Wayyyyyyyy higher than where you belong
fuk.
I got demoted twice, and now I'm still in division that I'm not supposed to be lol.
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On February 09 2014 05:09 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 05:01 Yezzus wrote:
Wayyyyyyyy higher than where you belong fuk. I got demoted twice, and now I'm still in division that I'm not supposed to be lol.
Maybe because you are on a massive losing streak/tilt?
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On February 09 2014 05:06 Slayer91 wrote:
Which proves nothing.
warwick was total garbage according to most people before darien picked him
I edited my previous post to avoid a double at the time in addition to me editing about 90% of my posts.
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On February 09 2014 05:10 Yezzus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 05:09 canikizu wrote:On February 09 2014 05:01 Yezzus wrote:
Wayyyyyyyy higher than where you belong fuk. I got demoted twice, and now I'm still in division that I'm not supposed to be lol. Maybe because you are on a massive losing streak/tilt?
But still, it's been 3 weeks.
I want to identify my problem, but I'm clueless right now lol.
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On February 09 2014 05:05 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 05:01 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On February 09 2014 04:53 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 04:15 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke. Udyr being kited as a problem is just complete nonsense just like nasus being kited was. They changed nasus mana problems and for a while he was considered to be totally broken. They both lack ranged damage and burst damage. Normally either you have one or the other. In 1 vs 1 they are strong because their gap closers are actually really good and in team based having more enemies also means you have more allies. The problem is when your cc isn't that great your sole purpose is to do damage and you have a problem sticking to people. Olaf has the same problem, but he has better burst and a bit of ranged damage. I heard he's gotten popular again since the rework, but don't forget before the buff he was considered one of the worst champions in the game on this forum and the points you made didn't even change a bit. Udyr was possibly too strong too when they changed his passive to give free resists, gambit picked him up again and started doing well and then they nerfed it to a shitty movement speed buff. Naturally the weakness of a champion who has no burst damage and little CC is always going to be how easy it is to kill them (ADCs share this weakness) so you need even tons of sustained damage, some kind of range, or high tankiness. (pick 2) Comparing waveclear and jungle speed is also pretty dumb, since they both excel at that. Being low hp in the jungle is a weakness, while udyr stays full, but in terms of potential sustained damage olaf is higher, but the exchange is that he is a lot less tanky and has no mobility built into his kit at all. The things making them OP/UP/viable/unviable whatever you want to label are just number tweaking. Udyr passive to give 9% increased resists was too strong and olaf back when CLG's were in korea was too strong as well. Udyr and Nasus are two entirely different things because of Wither. When they messed with Nasus they did FAR more than just fix mana problems. Nasus has ranged tools that Udyr just doesn't. Olaf's cc is more easily applied. Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year. With current jungle items, who actually gets low in the jungle anymore? Olaf gets 10/20/30 resists while not ulting, which puts him midway between normal/dragon form shyvana in terms of tankyness on even farm. As far as mobility, chain axes royally fuck up your opponents mobility. With 20% cdr(blue/jungle item) and axe pickup the cd is under 2 seconds. Like, to be fair, Udyr has a lot of tools that help him do things too, and I feel like you're playing up Olaf's strengths without doing the same for Udyr. He has a skill that can stun 5 people that gives him a MS boost. It's not always easy to kite an Udyr. He's tanky as balls and he's a lot safer in the jungle on the clear that matters the most. I'm not the one saying that the other champion is garbage. Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 05:03 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 04:53 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 04:15 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke. Udyr being kited as a problem is just complete nonsense just like nasus being kited was. They changed nasus mana problems and for a while he was considered to be totally broken. They both lack ranged damage and burst damage. Normally either you have one or the other. In 1 vs 1 they are strong because their gap closers are actually really good and in team based having more enemies also means you have more allies. The problem is when your cc isn't that great your sole purpose is to do damage and you have a problem sticking to people. Olaf has the same problem, but he has better burst and a bit of ranged damage. I heard he's gotten popular again since the rework, but don't forget before the buff he was considered one of the worst champions in the game on this forum and the points you made didn't even change a bit. Udyr was possibly too strong too when they changed his passive to give free resists, gambit picked him up again and started doing well and then they nerfed it to a shitty movement speed buff. Naturally the weakness of a champion who has no burst damage and little CC is always going to be how easy it is to kill them (ADCs share this weakness) so you need even tons of sustained damage, some kind of range, or high tankiness. (pick 2) Comparing waveclear and jungle speed is also pretty dumb, since they both excel at that. Being low hp in the jungle is a weakness, while udyr stays full, but in terms of potential sustained damage olaf is higher, but the exchange is that he is a lot less tanky and has no mobility built into his kit at all. The things making them OP/UP/viable/unviable whatever you want to label are just number tweaking. Udyr passive to give 9% increased resists was too strong and olaf back when CLG's were in korea was too strong as well. Udyr and Nasus are two entirely different things because of Wither. When they messed with Nasus they did FAR more than just fix mana problems. Nasus has ranged tools that Udyr just doesn't. Olaf's cc is more easily applied. Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year. With current jungle items, who actually gets low in the jungle anymore? Olaf gets 10/20/30 resists while not ulting, which puts him midway between normal/dragon form shyvana in terms of tankyness on even farm. As far as mobility, chain axes royally fuck up your opponents mobility. With 20% cdr(blue/jungle item) and axe pickup the cd is under 2 seconds. every two champions are "entirely two different things" because they have two different sets of abilities lol.. "Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year." that was the point I just made about tweaking numbers making him OP/UP despite the points you made about why he's so good being equally valid for both points. The thing about his R passive is the time you want to avoid CC you also want to avoid damage, so you want those 30 resists most when you are ulting in, I think that was one of riots countermeasures for making sure he wasn't too hard to deal with when fed. olaf gets low during first clear if you want to utilize his passive. you made a point about being low in the jungle increasing his speed but it increases risk also. chain axes you have to trade be long range and long cd or short range and short cd, as a skillshot its doubly punishing if you miss because it increaes the distance the enemy can get away before you can shoot the next axe. Also having to catch axes gives the enemy a clear projection to hit their own skillshots since your movement is very predictable. They're "two different things" because their main criticism is far weaker for one than another. You lumped them together, inferring that it affected them similarly. What numbers were doesn't matter because nobody plays on patches old enough for there to be a difference on either champion. I'm talking about here and now. And if Udyr doesn't often switch to turtle so he can keep higher damage, he doesn't have much tank to him at all. Both of them make trades to do what they want. I haven't done clear times with Olaf, but I'm pretty sure he does a decent time without having to balance on the edge of a knife.
Wither is a long slow with a cooldown, bear stance is a nearly permanent movement buff and you can use it to switch targets pretty easily as well, it's a one second slow AND a movement buff, you'll find they have similar sticking power. Obviously the attack speed buff on nasus wither is really strong so you have that nasus is stronger against autoattackers and udyr has a much easier time against skillshots and magic users in general.
What numbers were doesn't matter because nobody plays on patches old enough for there to be a difference on either champion. I'm talking about here and now."
This is a dumb statement because if you're calling one champion much better than another and citing numbers that DONT have anything to do with numbers, calling the fact that both of these champions have fluxuated from OP and UP with number tweaks irrelevant would be retarded.
And if Udyr doesn't often switch to turtle so he can keep higher damage, he doesn't have much tank to him at all. Both of them make trades to do what they want. I haven't done clear times with Olaf, but I'm pretty sure he does a decent time without having to balance on the edge of a knife.
Udyr doesn't lose damaging switching to turtle because you only do it for one or two autos and it keeps your passive stacks up, olaf doesn't balance on a knifeedge but being at 50% hp isn't optimal against any kind of invade or wanting to gank.
If you mean later in the game, that's just a matter of the skill of the udyr player, you have to choose your timming to get as many turtles in as possible without losing damage, and a big reason he needs trinity force to keep his damage competitive. Sticking in pheonix stance for an extra 3 autos for an extra 200 damage wouldn't make sense when you can switch to turtle for 200 (remember all the turtle numbers nerfs btw) x your resist modifer hp and you gain the 200 damage back from the trinity proc directly.
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Aviator Quinn and Blast Zone Jinx seem pretty neat, also Fair Lady Lissandra.
The Thresh concepts are... I dunno, they seem looney, but yet fun in an absurd way.
3-7 Silver III -> 10-8 Silver I, and still I'm playing so badly. ._. Considering how long I stayed in Silver I in s3 (but also the fact that my Elo was almost Plat by the time I got into my first promo series, clamping OP), the difference is pretty big. Also Diamond s3 TF down to Gold IV with sub-50% winrate, smells like boosted. 
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On February 09 2014 05:06 Slayer91 wrote:
Which proves nothing.
warwick was total garbage according to most people before darien picked him
It's Gambit though. They can do whatever they want and still win -__-
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On February 09 2014 05:25 Slayer91 wrote:
Wither is a long slow with a cooldown, bear stance is a nearly permanent movement buff and you can use it to switch targets pretty easily as well, it's a one second slow AND a movement buff, you'll find they have similar sticking power. Obviously the attack speed buff on nasus wither is really strong so you have that nasus is stronger against autoattackers and udyr has a much easier time against skillshots and magic users in general.
And Nasus doesn't need to get into melee range to start ccing somebody from 600 range away, making it more difficult to kite him and gets pretty close to near constant too.
This is a dumb statement because if you're calling one champion much better than another and citing numbers that DONT have anything to do with numbers, calling the fact that both of these champions have fluxuated from OP and UP with number tweaks irrelevant would be retarded.
What #s did I cite that don't have anything to do with the current patch that wasn't a counterpoint to a "ya but on another patch" non sequitur?
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On February 09 2014 05:42 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 05:25 Slayer91 wrote:
Wither is a long slow with a cooldown, bear stance is a nearly permanent movement buff and you can use it to switch targets pretty easily as well, it's a one second slow AND a movement buff, you'll find they have similar sticking power. Obviously the attack speed buff on nasus wither is really strong so you have that nasus is stronger against autoattackers and udyr has a much easier time against skillshots and magic users in general. And Nasus doesn't need to get into melee range to start ccing somebody from 600 range away, making it more difficult to kite him. Show nested quote +This is a dumb statement because if you're calling one champion much better than another and citing numbers that DONT have anything to do with numbers, calling the fact that both of these champions have fluxuated from OP and UP with number tweaks irrelevant would be retarded. What #s did I cite that don't have anything to do with the current patch that wasn't a counterpoint "ya but on another patch" non sequitur?
You need to get into melee range AFTER ccing them though. In a 1v1 it's similar if you include wither having a shorter uptime unless you got a lot of cdr. If Nasus didn't feel like he wants more speed people wouldn't be taking ghost on him.
In term of kiting which means its not 1v1 and its a teamfight, you can CC nasus while he's trying to catch a target and insure the guy can get away when wither runs out before taking a single hit, udyr can choose when to close the gap and when he get's CC'd at least you stunned the guy so you can close the range again.
As for your second point you originally stated:
On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke.
Pretty much every point you made here can be applied to every point in Olafs existence
There is no validity in this statement if you can make the same argument as for why a champion is better than udyr when, subject to number tweaks there have been times when udyr is played a lot and olaf never, and olaf played a lot and considered op and udyr never.
The fact that you never mentioned numbers means that your argument is irrelevant, since history has shown that the numbers are everything.
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On February 09 2014 05:48 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 05:42 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 05:25 Slayer91 wrote:
Wither is a long slow with a cooldown, bear stance is a nearly permanent movement buff and you can use it to switch targets pretty easily as well, it's a one second slow AND a movement buff, you'll find they have similar sticking power. Obviously the attack speed buff on nasus wither is really strong so you have that nasus is stronger against autoattackers and udyr has a much easier time against skillshots and magic users in general. And Nasus doesn't need to get into melee range to start ccing somebody from 600 range away, making it more difficult to kite him. This is a dumb statement because if you're calling one champion much better than another and citing numbers that DONT have anything to do with numbers, calling the fact that both of these champions have fluxuated from OP and UP with number tweaks irrelevant would be retarded. What #s did I cite that don't have anything to do with the current patch that wasn't a counterpoint "ya but on another patch" non sequitur? You need to get into melee range AFTER ccing them though. In a 1v1 it's similar if you include wither having a shorter uptime unless you got a lot of cdr. If Nasus didn't feel like he wants more speed people wouldn't be taking ghost on him. In term of kiting which means its not 1v1 and its a teamfight, you can CC nasus while he's trying to catch a target and insure the guy can get away when wither runs out before taking a single hit, udyr can choose when to close the gap and when he get's CC'd at least you stunned the guy so you can close the range again. As for your second point you originally stated: Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke. Pretty much every point you made here can be applied to every point in Olafs existence There is no validity in this statement if you can make the same argument as for why a champion is better than udyr when, subject to number tweaks there have been times when udyr is played a lot and olaf never, and olaf played a lot and considered op and udyr never. The fact that you never mentioned numbers means that your argument is irrelevant, since history has shown that the numbers are everything.
I was unaware that catching up to a withered target was so difficult. Nasus has just as much volition to wither as Udyr has to bear. Any cc that is used on one will be used on the other. Neither of them are Olaf where they can just say "fuck you" and keep coming anyway. Talking about a high wither uptime is just as valid as talking Udyr's damage staying relevant due to triforce.
You're right, I guess I should specify the reality we're discussing the state of the game in. Clearly that is my bad. Oh wait, no I don't, because the whole discussion start because somebody asked for another champion to jungle with in soloq, meaning comparison of champions should pertain to current day.
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EPT
