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On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded?
Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle.
How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke.
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On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded?
How does one exactly back this up? Do you want me to link to the lolwiki's? What is your preferred metric for proving this? Number of picks and bans? Number of picks by bengi? Are you interested in me drawing you a picture in MS Paint? I mean, I can't really think of an objective metric that would go against me in my assertions.
I feel like I said "Alakazam is better than Mr Mime" and was then asked to justify that.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
It's wouldn't be particularly difficult to justify that Alakazam is better than Mr. Mime.
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On February 09 2014 03:53 Scip wrote:
It's wouldn't be particularly difficult to justify that Alakazam is better than Mr. Mime.
Depends on if you want a defensive or offensive psychic-pokemon 
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Mr. Mime has no utility over Alakazam apart from Baton Pass chains since gen5 IIRC
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On February 09 2014 03:53 Scip wrote:
It's wouldn't be particularly difficult to justify that Alakazam is better than Mr. Mime.
It "is" why you are like "Look at Alakazam's Speed and Special stats, they are much higher, and he learns recover!" But then Slayer replies "Well, but can he learn doubleslap?"
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On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke.
Udyr being kited as a problem is just complete nonsense just like nasus being kited was. They changed nasus mana problems and for a while he was considered to be totally broken. They both lack ranged damage and burst damage. Normally either you have one or the other. In 1 vs 1 they are strong because their gap closers are actually really good and in team based having more enemies also means you have more allies. The problem is when your cc isn't that great your sole purpose is to do damage and you have a problem sticking to people.
Olaf has the same problem, but he has better burst and a bit of ranged damage. I heard he's gotten popular again since the rework, but don't forget before the buff he was considered one of the worst champions in the game on this forum and the points you made didn't even change a bit.
Udyr was possibly too strong too when they changed his passive to give free resists, gambit picked him up again and started doing well and then they nerfed it to a shitty movement speed buff.
Naturally the weakness of a champion who has no burst damage and little CC is always going to be how easy it is to kill them (ADCs share this weakness) so you need even tons of sustained damage, some kind of range, or high tankiness. (pick 2)
Comparing waveclear and jungle speed is also pretty dumb, since they both excel at that. Being low hp in the jungle is a weakness, while udyr stays full, but in terms of potential sustained damage olaf is higher, but the exchange is that he is a lot less tanky and has no mobility built into his kit at all.
The things making them OP/UP/viable/unviable whatever you want to label are just number tweaking. Udyr passive to give 9% increased resists was too strong and olaf back when CLG's were in korea was too strong as well.
On February 09 2014 03:49 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? How does one exactly back this up? Do you want me to link to the lolwiki's? What is your preferred metric for proving this? Number of picks and bans? Number of picks by bengi? Are you interested in me drawing you a picture in MS Paint? I mean, I can't really think of an objective metric that would go against me in my assertions. I feel like I said "Alakazam is better than Mr Mime" and was then asked to justify that.
any metric at all would be better than randomly saying X champ is better than Y champ, and if the champ X gets played suddenly you're right but it doesn't mean any of the reasons you cited are valid at all. Just randomly spitting out what strengths you think that champion has doesn't prove anything.
In terms of your metaphor I have no idea what you're talking about but in this case my Mr.Mime would shitstomp your Alakazam 10 times out of 10 so you need better justification to convince me.
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So maybe I'm late to the party, but is Yasuo's late game as stupidly OP as I think it is? He gets a 690 HP shield and double crit chance, on top of all of his other skills.
I tried to 1v1 him with full build Panth (GA, BT, LW, BC, Merc, IE), and it wasn't close even with him being a full item behind. He literally killed me twice, lol.
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basically riot tried to make a melee ad work so they give him free jumps to anyone once, as well as lategame free warmogs and 50% crit
as far as i know he's still not that great in teamfights
so they succeeded in making yet another dude who is great at dueling and split pushing
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Well it isnt random he is banned as much as kassadin almost LOL.He is good if you have team who has knockups like wukong/lulu/alistar/ori and mvp gragas.You can literally 5 man ult almost every fight if you have a gragas on yasuo team.
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On February 09 2014 04:35 Slayer91 wrote:
basically riot tried to make a melee ad work so they give him free jumps to anyone once, as well as lategame free warmogs and 50% crit
as far as i know he's still not that great in teamfights
so they succeeded in making yet another dude who is great at dueling and split pushing
? He is amazing in team fights when landing a 3-4 man ult, ive seen good Yasuos able to 1v4 with his ult...its ridiculous
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On February 09 2014 04:33 LoCicero wrote:
So maybe I'm late to the party, but is Yasuo's late game as stupidly OP as I think it is? He gets a 690 HP shield and double crit chance, on top of all of his other skills.
I tried to 1v1 him with full build Panth (GA, BT, LW, BC, Merc, IE), and it wasn't close even with him being a full item behind. He literally killed me twice, lol.
One stupidly broken passive wasn't enough, so they gave him two!
But don't worry, he's a high skill champ.....until he hits his two item timing and his Q is on a 1 second cooldown.
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On February 09 2014 04:37 Yezzus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 04:35 Slayer91 wrote:
basically riot tried to make a melee ad work so they give him free jumps to anyone once, as well as lategame free warmogs and 50% crit
as far as i know he's still not that great in teamfights
so they succeeded in making yet another dude who is great at dueling and split pushing ? He is amazing in team fights when landing a 3-4 man ult, ive seen good Yasuos able to 1v4 with his ult...its ridiculous
I mean I haven't seen him played much in LCS or the korean leagues but i dont follow them too much
i can be amazing in teamfights with udyr doesnt prove anything
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Essentially he's an AD Katarina that excels at dueling as well...
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well they should probably change it so it only targets 1 knocked up dude so its not a feast or famine teamcomp thing
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On February 09 2014 04:44 Slayer91 wrote:
well they should probably change it so it only targets 1 knocked up dude so its not a feast or famine teamcomp thing
Yeah, I think a perfect nerf to him atm is to only allow him to ult a single target.....wonder how he would be then.....still strong but not broken OP in the right hands
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On February 09 2014 04:15 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On February 09 2014 03:28 Slayer91 wrote:On February 09 2014 03:24 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 19:24 arb wrote:On February 08 2014 12:38 cLutZ wrote:On February 08 2014 12:18 Sufficiency wrote:
What is GD's opinion on Udyr jungle? I am considering him because I need another low IP jungler for my smurf to play... I'd pick Nasus + Amumu + Cho as low IP junglers at Udyrs cost. Otherwise you could just save the 3k and get Olaf for a never-banned, always good jungler who does most of Udyr's things better. And Nunu is basically free. lol what I feel like Udyrs just way better imo to jungle than Olaf, no champion is gonna be able to 1v1 him in the jungle ever. and his damage + snowball possibility in solo queue is ridiculously high Well its no sin to be wrong, but Olaf is much much stronger than Udyr. Better ganks, similar jungle speed, better waveclear, similar dueling, better damage (because Olaf can actually use his, whereas Udyr gets like 1 hit a month). Udyr is just better for towerdiving, which is laughable in soloque anyways. can you back up anything you just said or can it be completely disregarded? Are we really having this discussion? Olaf is massively strong right now in both top and jungle. How many times have we had the "Why isn't Udyr played? Because he can be kited to hell and back." discussion? Udyr has no cc unless he can walk up to somebody while Olaf can toss axes all day. The lower Olaf gets in the jungler the faster he heals back up and clears. Waveclear? Toss them axes down the line and Hydra isn't an uncommon item on him. The dude with a couple items because a monstrous lifestealing tank. Damage? A bajillionty free aspd, free AD from ult, and a spammable truedamage nuke. Udyr being kited as a problem is just complete nonsense just like nasus being kited was. They changed nasus mana problems and for a while he was considered to be totally broken. They both lack ranged damage and burst damage. Normally either you have one or the other. In 1 vs 1 they are strong because their gap closers are actually really good and in team based having more enemies also means you have more allies. The problem is when your cc isn't that great your sole purpose is to do damage and you have a problem sticking to people. Olaf has the same problem, but he has better burst and a bit of ranged damage. I heard he's gotten popular again since the rework, but don't forget before the buff he was considered one of the worst champions in the game on this forum and the points you made didn't even change a bit. Udyr was possibly too strong too when they changed his passive to give free resists, gambit picked him up again and started doing well and then they nerfed it to a shitty movement speed buff. Naturally the weakness of a champion who has no burst damage and little CC is always going to be how easy it is to kill them (ADCs share this weakness) so you need even tons of sustained damage, some kind of range, or high tankiness. (pick 2) Comparing waveclear and jungle speed is also pretty dumb, since they both excel at that. Being low hp in the jungle is a weakness, while udyr stays full, but in terms of potential sustained damage olaf is higher, but the exchange is that he is a lot less tanky and has no mobility built into his kit at all. The things making them OP/UP/viable/unviable whatever you want to label are just number tweaking. Udyr passive to give 9% increased resists was too strong and olaf back when CLG's were in korea was too strong as well.
Udyr and Nasus are two entirely different things because of Wither. When they messed with Nasus they did FAR more than just fix mana problems. Nasus has ranged tools that Udyr just doesn't.
Olaf's cc is more easily applied. Don't forget that before the nerfs, he was the most broken champion in the game to the point where they had to wreck him for close to a year.
With current jungle items, who actually gets low in the jungle anymore? Olaf gets 10/20/30 resists while not ulting, which puts him midway between normal/dragon form shyvana in terms of tankyness on even farm. As far as mobility, chain axes royally fuck up your opponents mobility. With 20% cdr(blue/jungle item) and axe pickup the cd is under 2 seconds.
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korea thinks very highly of him. never really got to play him but he seems OP
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I don't think that's feasible, tbh, because the window is so small that ulting the correct target would be near impossible if say, they all got knocked up by malphite. They just need to nerf his passive a little bit and tweak the numbers on his kit to not scale quite so hard.
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EPT
