EPT[Patch 3.13] Heimer Rework General Discussion - Page 200
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:16 Zdrastochye wrote: If you're assuming a level 3 gank top and the person never wards and always overextends, your strategy stops once people either a) ward b) respect the gank c) get good enough to escape the gank without burning flash or getting chunked. There are plenty of junglers who can gank top at level 3 without wards and vs an overextended lane and can get the kill. I'd even argue Shyvana could do it without going 21 utility. Shy excluded. How often do you seriously see tops start with a ward in inventory? Guess what I do if I see them start ward? I don't gank and hope to god my top lane doesn't lose despite having a 2 pot advantage on the guy. Keep bringing up exceptions. Obviously own thought is included when in midgame. No shit I'm not gunna dive someone who's flash is up or have extreme escapes or high ability to out play. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
In addition junglers get like what? 40% of the gold of a solo laner? (not counting passive gold generation). So you lose 40% of your gold efficiency. The way the jungle is now, you get so much of your gold and experience from the buff camps that when the buff camps are down, I'm not even sure if it's worthwhile to go jungle. If you can help your ally push the lane to tower faster after a successful gank then that means your ally can back faster, or if you guys want to, you can take the enemy tower faster. If the gank doesn't net a kill but burns summoners and gets someone low on health/mana then that isn't a failed gank. You can just stay, push and dive them later. You push the lane faster so the enemy jungler has to play a reactive game which no one wants to do. Reactive games don't allow you to make plays and force you to give up cs to react to situations. You want to be in the drivers seat. If the jungler doesn't react then the enemy team loses more creeps to tower at the very least, and likely a tower too. Once that tower is down your enemy team loses safety in that large zone. I wouldn't smite a cannon creep for no reason though. I'd smite to push faster so the enemy loses 1 more creep. But if you don't have to smite, you can walk back into your jungle and clear a camp like wraiths instantly or take 150 less damage from a buff camp. Finally I haven't mentioned the benefits of camping in how they affect the enemy laner's ability to play. If you camp then you force your enemy to play safe and lose farm. There's no net loss for your team if you camp and make a lane a 2v1 as long as your buff camps are down. In Worlds we saw junglers who treated the jungle as just a resource for buff camps. They'd get their two buffs then head top to make the lane a 2v2 because the jungle is not that rewarding right now compared to having two people in lane. I could just be talking out of my ass, and I'd like to try this but I'm afraid my allies will just yell at me to leave lane. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:20 wei2coolman wrote: Shy excluded. How often do you seriously see tops start with a ward in inventory? Guess what I do if I see them start ward? I don't gank and hope to god my top lane doesn't lose despite having a 2 pot advantage on the guy. If you did 21 utility Shyvana jungle to d5 maybe I'd consider it to be a successful strat, but it's not and you won't. I could play clarity Riven vs my fellow bronzies, and I might have a pretty good winrate doing it, and maybe I could point out that it really helps when I can clarity during team fights and my mid laner can stay in the mix longer. I'm not seeing the connection between 21 utility Shyvana, and it being the reason why you're doing so well with it. Maybe showcase it in TL IHs so we all can make assumptions on it for ourselves. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:20 wei2coolman wrote: Shy excluded. How often do you seriously see tops start with a ward in inventory? Guess what I do if I see them start ward? I don't gank and hope to god my top lane doesn't lose despite having a 2 pot advantage on the guy. The level 3 gank at 3 minutes is the most standart thing in league, any decent toplaner knows it's coming and doesn't need a ward to play defensive at that timestamp. Heck, the other jungler knows about it too because he is doing the same, in general, no matter where's the wave toplane you should be running there after your double buff to either gank or counter gank. If you play vs people that I'd advise less effort into "experimenting" and more in "get better" the tax theory is good tho, I like to soak some exp from lanes when I can | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:22 Nos- wrote: You 2v2 to stop your tower from going down not because you don't want to farm the jungle wtf? That's the primary motivation, but it's not like they could protect the tower forever and the jungler's team barely lost anything if at all in terms of gold or experience. In most of my games as a jungler I'm always at the same level as the duo bot lane. So that means that I'd be the same level if I just did my buff camps and duoed top for the rest of the time. On November 20 2013 04:25 canikizu wrote: umm, buff camps only give you 76 gold, wolf camp alone gives you 63 gold already. Not to mention normal camp's bounty goes up by minute, while buff camp's bounty only goes up by its uptime, so if you constantly get your buff timing right, you barely get any other than 76 gold. That's a good point. I'm just watching Trick play (videos on reddit) and he literally camps so much it's like he's duoing top or mid. I think he's on a smurf and he's only picking certain games to show. I don't like Trick but the way he plays it doesn't seem like he's actually losing anything because it's so easy to get kills in 2v1 lanes, he denies creeps, and takes towers. Another point against jungling is that I tend to have to burn a lot of health pots on a lot of junglers. 63+ gold from wolves looks good, but it's not worth much when I factor in that I burn a health pot on Sej to get it. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:24 Zdrastochye wrote: If you did 21 utility Shyvana jungle to d5 maybe I'd consider it to be a successful strat, but it's not and you won't. I could play clarity Riven vs my fellow bronzies, and I might have a pretty good winrate doing it, and maybe I could point out that it really helps when I can clarity during team fights and my mid laner can stay in the mix longer. I'm not seeing the connection between 21 utility Shyvana, and it being the reason why you're doing so well with it. Maybe showcase it in TL IHs so we all can make assumptions on it for ourselves. The idea behind 21 utility is mostly to sustain up and perma farm jungle with strong lane presence due to ms quints and ms masteries. Turn a lot of forced ganks by enemy into counterganks, can force turrets quickly with waveclear. It works more along the lines of. Oh I'm every where. Pretty similar to how hecarim works. On November 20 2013 04:29 xes wrote: What if the support wards for the top laner at lvl 1 Avoid lane, continue jungling. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
So in addition to DDOS'ing the enemy jungler your strat involves maphacking too ok | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:39 xes wrote: So in addition to DDOS'ing the enemy jungler your strat involves maphacking too ok Pretty obvious when lane has been warded. You instantly see top lane champ retreat ever so slightly. And you can just sort of read that the gank is no longer any good. Then just walk away. Walking away is always an alternative. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:42 wei2coolman wrote: Pretty obvious when lane has been warded. You instantly see top lane champ retreat ever so slightly. And you can just sort of read that the gank is no longer any good. Then just walk away. Walking away is always an alternative. you just spent 20 seconds walking into lane waiting 5 seconds to confirm its warded then another 20 seconds to walk back to your jungle to farm some wolves. Good luck hitting level 6 by the time second buff spawns. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:42 wei2coolman wrote: Pretty obvious when lane has been warded. You instantly see top lane champ retreat ever so slightly. And you can just sort of read that the gank is no longer any good. Then just walk away. Walking away is always an alternative. In silver you can just ignore the wards and walk through them because its 50/50 that they actually pay attention to the mini map at that point. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: you just spent 20 seconds walking into lane waiting 5 seconds to confirm its warded then another 20 seconds to walk back to your jungle to farm some wolves. Good luck hitting level 6 by the time second buff spawns. I don't jungle, but isn't this basically modus operandi for the 3 min gank? | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:47 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: you just spent 20 seconds walking into lane waiting 5 seconds to confirm its warded then another 20 seconds to walk back to your jungle to farm some wolves. Good luck hitting level 6 by the time second buff spawns. That's a rare exception. How often is top lane warded that early by their support? What maybe 10% of the games? Maybe 15%? Plus that's why ms quints so good on junglers. On November 20 2013 04:52 Osmoses wrote: I don't jungle, but isn't this basically modus operandi for the 3 min gank? Yeah. It is. There are various factors that can chamge it though. If enemy has good lvl 3 ganker, and your top laner is full retard and shoves early on you can get lane countergank off. If river is warded and enemy is overextended you can chance it and hope enemy jungler is weak at lvl 3. Or if they're warded and playing in non gankable range. You can just head to mid. Sometimes though therevs no good opening move and you go back to farming or counterjungling. | ||
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