On October 21 2013 05:11 Alaric wrote: Dignitas used either Janna or Taric when they ran the comp. Their jungle was also Mundo because pretty autonomous, lightning-fast clear and once he got his SV+HP item (sunfire, randuin's or warmogs, can't remember) he could initiate by simply walking into the whole enemy team and between Soraka mid, Lulu top, and Taric/Janna support he'd have the survivability to hold the frontline alone.
Because they ran Kog'Maw they had a super-scaling with high damage AD carry that meant the enemy team had to do something about him in teamfights, but there was a shitton of peeling and trying to ignore Mundo meant that the heals and shields could go to Kog instead, making him really hard to take down.
The comp lacked clear and poke, but between Kog's range, Mundo's tankiness and the shields/heals they could walk up to the tower, tank some shots while Kog whittled it down, rinse and repeat till it's down.
I loved those games so much that I watched them like 3 times each, I think, and I am very certain that Mundo built aegis very early every game. I think another part of the team comp logic was to just stack those defensive auras to make Kog even more difficult to kill on top of all the ridiculous heals and peels (aegis aura, Soraka passive, Taric W passive when Taric is picked). I just remember seeing Mundo tank ridiculous amounts of damage just scarcely more than an aegis at times because of how stupid all the resist aura stacking was.
Basically they could either turn mundo into the equivalent of a 5/6 tank item champ at the 15-20 minute mark, or they could add like 600 health, 500 in healing, and like 500 in shields and like 130/70 resists to the carry. Was pretty fun to watch, I was really sad when they nerfed supports simply because that wasn't "meta". LoL could use more cheesy comps tbh.
Yeah.
I was pissed when they nerfed Saraka and Lulu. So dumb. No reason for it. Sure it dominated one tournament, who cares...
What reason do teams have to work on new strats? none basically... if they dont do well they just lose, and if they do, well Riot going to just nerf it so that everyone play 100% the same Meta.
They tried so so so so so so so hard to even get rid of the whole 2v1 thing.
Yep. Seems that for pro players, their job is figuring out what's ideal to play in Riot's meta rather than defining the meta themselves, since Riot decides to nerf a lot of strange/innovative ideas out of viability.
On October 21 2013 05:11 Alaric wrote: Dignitas used either Janna or Taric when they ran the comp. Their jungle was also Mundo because pretty autonomous, lightning-fast clear and once he got his SV+HP item (sunfire, randuin's or warmogs, can't remember) he could initiate by simply walking into the whole enemy team and between Soraka mid, Lulu top, and Taric/Janna support he'd have the survivability to hold the frontline alone.
Because they ran Kog'Maw they had a super-scaling with high damage AD carry that meant the enemy team had to do something about him in teamfights, but there was a shitton of peeling and trying to ignore Mundo meant that the heals and shields could go to Kog instead, making him really hard to take down.
The comp lacked clear and poke, but between Kog's range, Mundo's tankiness and the shields/heals they could walk up to the tower, tank some shots while Kog whittled it down, rinse and repeat till it's down.
I loved those games so much that I watched them like 3 times each, I think, and I am very certain that Mundo built aegis very early every game. I think another part of the team comp logic was to just stack those defensive auras to make Kog even more difficult to kill on top of all the ridiculous heals and peels (aegis aura, Soraka passive, Taric W passive when Taric is picked). I just remember seeing Mundo tank ridiculous amounts of damage just scarcely more than an aegis at times because of how stupid all the resist aura stacking was.
Basically they could either turn mundo into the equivalent of a 5/6 tank item champ at the 15-20 minute mark, or they could add like 600 health, 500 in healing, and like 500 in shields and like 130/70 resists to the carry. Was pretty fun to watch, I was really sad when they nerfed supports simply because that wasn't "meta". LoL could use more cheesy comps tbh.
Yeah.
I was pissed when they nerfed Saraka and Lulu. So dumb. No reason for it. Sure it dominated one tournament, who cares...
What reason do teams have to work on new strats? none basically... if they dont do well they just lose, and if they do, well Riot going to just nerf it so that everyone play 100% the same Meta.
They tried so so so so so so so hard to even get rid of the whole 2v1 thing.
Yep. Seems that for pro players, their job is figuring out what's ideal to play in Riot's meta rather than defining the meta themselves, since Riot decides to nerf a lot of strange/innovative ideas out of viability.
To be fair, it has gotten much much better of late, but like the Soraka Lulu thing is a prime example.
Soraka mids Lulu top saw like seven games played as a comp against a bunch of teams who at the time had never seen the strategy before. Of course they got caught of guard and lost. But the thing is, the day after that tournament both Lulu and Soraka got gutted.
Lulu probably needed the nerf, Soraka I'm not so sure about.
On October 21 2013 11:12 cLutZ wrote: To be fair, 2v1 did, and continues to, shrink the viable toplane pool substantially.
Is that solution really to make 2v1 not viable? or is the solution to just run with it and create top laners that can fend for themselves mid?
Or hell, why not send a Caitlyn top to 1v2? No one has tried. I think she'd do well, no one can really push with her, and she could certainly get farm safely. If you gave a Sivir a blue buff I'm sure she'd do damn well too.
Then you could have a roamer like Alistar as well as a jungler.
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
I guess it would come down to whether or not the Shiv crits lowers E cooldown.
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
what u get both the shiv lets u push like a madman and u farm the pd hella fast
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
Small thoughts is that it's a smidgen cheaper (300g?) and builds out of a gp5 item, which feels a bit nicer to sit on if you have to buy it in pieces.
Though yes I agree PD is better for him. People probably just saw some pro go Shiv/BotRK on stream and it's now the new vogue.
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
I guess it would come down to whether or not the Shiv crits lowers E cooldown.
I don't follow.
Of course crits with a Shiv will lower E cooldown, just the same as crits without a Shiv..?
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
I guess it would come down to whether or not the Shiv crits lowers E cooldown.
I don't follow.
Of course crits with a Shiv will lower E cooldown, just the same as crits without a Shiv..?
The lighting procs can each crit. If those crits count, you could potentially remove SS's CD in one attack.
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
what u get both the shiv lets u push like a madman and u farm the pd hella fast
SS -> PD is almost certainly suboptimal, at that point you're competing with IE, LW, BT, or BotRK which all have some advantage and I'm pretty sure do much more damage than doubling down on Zeal items.
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
I guess it would come down to whether or not the Shiv crits lowers E cooldown.
I don't follow.
Of course crits with a Shiv will lower E cooldown, just the same as crits without a Shiv..?
The lighting procs can each crit. If those crits count, you could potentially remove SS's CD in one attack.
That's not how it works. The lighting crits if and only if your auto-attack crits, and you get only one cooldown reduction per hit regardless of how many targets got lightninged.
See this video at 15:50 for reference of a Tryndamere lighting critting several targets:
On October 21 2013 11:12 cLutZ wrote: To be fair, 2v1 did, and continues to, shrink the viable toplane pool substantially.
Is that solution really to make 2v1 not viable? or is the solution to just run with it and create top laners that can fend for themselves mid?
Or hell, why not send a Caitlyn top to 1v2? No one has tried. I think she'd do well, no one can really push with her, and she could certainly get farm safely. If you gave a Sivir a blue buff I'm sure she'd do damn well too.
Then you could have a roamer like Alistar as well as a jungler.
Cait 1v2? Kidding? Easy to dive, easy to zone (duo stands in your minion line), little gank assist, putting her 2v1 means she is significantly behind for early tower pushes (Cait's main strength).
The problem with the solution of new laners who can live 2v1 is #1. Need to remake like half the cast, and #2. That strength doesn't translate to soloqueue so it splits the meta even more than it already is.
On October 21 2013 11:12 cLutZ wrote: To be fair, 2v1 did, and continues to, shrink the viable toplane pool substantially.
Isn't jax one of the worst 1v2 laners yet has seen a lot more play recently?
Jax is pretty hard to dive 2v1 or 3v2, so you need to do a 3v1 dive, but everyone dies to that. He also is decent at farming under tower, and is able to catch up better than most other toplanes.
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
what u get both the shiv lets u push like a madman and u farm the pd hella fast
SS -> PD is almost certainly suboptimal, at that point you're competing with IE, LW, BT, or BotRK which all have some advantage and I'm pretty sure do much more damage than doubling down on Zeal items.
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
I guess it would come down to whether or not the Shiv crits lowers E cooldown.
I don't follow.
Of course crits with a Shiv will lower E cooldown, just the same as crits without a Shiv..?
The lighting procs can each crit. If those crits count, you could potentially remove SS's CD in one attack.
That's not how it works. The lighting crits if and only if your auto-attack crits, and you get only one cooldown reduction per hit regardless of how many targets got lightninged.
I don't know, since I don't play Tryn. Also, I don't know what 15:50 you were trying to get at. At 15:50 video time he was auto attacking Lulu at the bush behind red buff. At 15:50 game time, the cd was <1sec or up and was autoing a tower.
I think that with jungler assistance the 1v2 difficulty is possible to be lessened enough to make more champions viable than are being played. Jax is a good example, he used to be thought to completely suck 1v2 but he's not that bad at all. (periods of safe lasthitting and he has incredible gank assist).
Champions like Fiora really suffer because of the prevelence of 1v2 but she can still be run mid in the same way as certain AD assassins. If she was good enough to be competitively viable, that is(riot buff pls).
Shib is good on trynd because of the item timing with his free crit chance. First item shiv is bbonkrs powerful when you have a high chance to proc the lightning. It's a similar reason why it's so good on ashe.
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
what u get both the shiv lets u push like a madman and u farm the pd hella fast
SS -> PD is almost certainly suboptimal, at that point you're competing with IE, LW, BT, or BotRK which all have some advantage and I'm pretty sure do much more damage than doubling down on Zeal items.
On October 21 2013 11:35 Requizen wrote:
On October 21 2013 11:33 Alzadar wrote:
On October 21 2013 11:27 Gahlo wrote:
On October 21 2013 11:23 Alzadar wrote:
On October 21 2013 10:40 FinestHour wrote: botrk shiv trynd freelo in silver/gold
I still don't see what possible reason you could have to choose Shiv over Phantom Dancer on Tryndamere. The dude clears waves at basically the same speed with either (E + an auto on each creep is required even with Shiv), and PD has much better single target damage and scales better.
IMO Shiv's only place is for ADCs who can't clear waves very well, such as Ezreal, Miss Fortune or Vayne.
I guess it would come down to whether or not the Shiv crits lowers E cooldown.
I don't follow.
Of course crits with a Shiv will lower E cooldown, just the same as crits without a Shiv..?
The lighting procs can each crit. If those crits count, you could potentially remove SS's CD in one attack.
That's not how it works. The lighting crits if and only if your auto-attack crits, and you get only one cooldown reduction per hit regardless of how many targets got lightninged.
I don't know, since I don't play Tryn. Also, I don't know what 15:50 you were trying to get at. At 15:50 video time he was auto attacking Lulu at the bush behind red buff. At 15:50 game time, the cd was <1sec or up and was autoing a tower.
At 15:56 video time (16:29 game time) he spins after Lulu and lands a crit on her which bounces to the nearby Caitlyn and Diana. Spin cooldown goes down by 2 seconds, i.e. was only reduced once, despite 3 people being hit by the critical proc.
EPT
