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On October 01 2013 07:50 ketchup wrote:
This is something that should have happened with Yorick when he was first released. It has frustrated me for so long that his ghouls had no gold on kill. It makes no sense that they had 0 gold value.
If I remember correctly, ghouls granting no gold on kill was a conscious balance decision made by Riot. If Yorick spams his E ghoul on cooldown and you kill it every time, that's 50 gold a minute, which is basically an extra creep for you each wave. If he spams W ghoul on cooldown, that's an extra 30 gold a minute. It adds up.
Granted, Yorick probably zones you hard so it'll help mitigate the lost cs, but it's still a nerf to an already underplayed champion.
Teemo shroom nerfs make slightly more sense in that to efficiently clear shrooms you have to, at a minimum, invest 125 gold. This helps to alleviate that. Still, it's a nerf to an underplayed champion.
I basically don't think it's a good idea to nerf underplayed/underpowered champions without giving them something back, even if these nerfs are relatively minor.
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Yay, Cas ult is 100 mana! Viktor level 3 ult 225. heh.
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Any patch with Yorick nerfs is good patch.
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Oh god, is it time for Olaf to be a thing again already?
After seeing that fucker last time, I would have been perfectly happy with him being removed from the game. Hope he is slightly less silly at least.
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SmashGizmo olaf rework get
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Shen is the only champion I play top lane, and I just now learned that Shadow Dash reduces damage.
Silver I suddenly seems accurate...
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Ghouls count as cs but don't give money. I never understood why while suffering through a yorick lane you don't get any gold for killing his pesky ghouls.
Zyra plants give gold and so do hemier's turrets. It's only a matter of consistency.
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On October 01 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 07:50 ketchup wrote:
This is something that should have happened with Yorick when he was first released. It has frustrated me for so long that his ghouls had no gold on kill. It makes no sense that they had 0 gold value. If I remember correctly, ghouls granting no gold on kill was a conscious balance decision made by Riot. If Yorick spams his E ghoul on cooldown and you kill it every time, that's 50 gold a minute, which is basically an extra creep for you each wave. If he spams W ghoul on cooldown, that's an extra 30 gold a minute. It adds up. Granted, Yorick probably zones you hard so it'll help mitigate the lost cs, but it's still a nerf to an already underplayed champion. Teemo shroom nerfs make slightly more sense in that to efficiently clear shrooms you have to, at a minimum, invest 125 gold. This helps to alleviate that. Still, it's a nerf to an underplayed champion. I basically don't think it's a good idea to nerf underplayed/underpowered champions without giving them something back, even if these nerfs are relatively minor.
So what I'm reading is you've never laned against a Yorick. You are a lucky, blessed, and pure soul my friend
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On October 01 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 07:50 ketchup wrote:
This is something that should have happened with Yorick when he was first released. It has frustrated me for so long that his ghouls had no gold on kill. It makes no sense that they had 0 gold value. If I remember correctly, ghouls granting no gold on kill was a conscious balance decision made by Riot. If Yorick spams his E ghoul on cooldown and you kill it every time, that's 50 gold a minute, which is basically an extra creep for you each wave. If he spams W ghoul on cooldown, that's an extra 30 gold a minute. It adds up. Granted, Yorick probably zones you hard so it'll help mitigate the lost cs, but it's still a nerf to an already underplayed champion.
I know it was a conscious decision, and I disliked it from the start. The idea that these ghouls chase you around automatically, then give you no reward for actually doing something about them is silly. As for the reasoning, why shouldn't yorick be punished for playing in that spam-happy manner?
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AHAHAHAHAH TEEMO SHROOMS GIVE GOLD. dat yorick nerf though
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I honestly think Olaf is kinda weaker >.>
Q got its utility buffed, but lost a good chunk of damage. W I think got nerfed since no spell vamp means E hurts you more. Don't know if that's mitigated by the increased healing and also don't know if the huge attack speed steroid offsets the AD steroid. I'm inclined to think it doesn't since more AD is generally better than more AS for melees due to kiting. E got straight up nerfed; you need over 100 bonus AD at level 18 for E to hit as hard as it used to OR you need to be level 6 with level 1 E to match old E's damage. I'm also not sure the whole cd decreased on hit will completely offset the increased cooldown on E, if at all. That said, R granting a shitton of AD will help to bridge that gap. Downside is that Olaf will be a lot squishier than he used to be with R changes.
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On October 01 2013 08:02 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 01 2013 07:50 ketchup wrote:
This is something that should have happened with Yorick when he was first released. It has frustrated me for so long that his ghouls had no gold on kill. It makes no sense that they had 0 gold value. If I remember correctly, ghouls granting no gold on kill was a conscious balance decision made by Riot. If Yorick spams his E ghoul on cooldown and you kill it every time, that's 50 gold a minute, which is basically an extra creep for you each wave. If he spams W ghoul on cooldown, that's an extra 30 gold a minute. It adds up. Granted, Yorick probably zones you hard so it'll help mitigate the lost cs, but it's still a nerf to an already underplayed champion. I know it was a conscious decision, and I disliked it from the start. The idea that these ghouls chase you around automatically, then give you no reward for actually doing something about them is silly. As for the reasoning, why shouldn't yorick be punished for playing in that spam-happy manner?
I'm not saying that Yorick's current kit or playstyle is a good thing. I absolutely hate it and am ashamed to admit I spammed a ton of Yorick games for frelo when he was released.
I'm just saying that it makes no sense to nerf an already underplayed and underpowered champion without buffing them in other areas. This change mitigates Yorick's annoyance and strength in lane, which is arguably the strongest and most useful aspect of Yorick in the current meta.
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On October 01 2013 08:08 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 08:02 ketchup wrote:On October 01 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 01 2013 07:50 ketchup wrote:
This is something that should have happened with Yorick when he was first released. It has frustrated me for so long that his ghouls had no gold on kill. It makes no sense that they had 0 gold value. If I remember correctly, ghouls granting no gold on kill was a conscious balance decision made by Riot. If Yorick spams his E ghoul on cooldown and you kill it every time, that's 50 gold a minute, which is basically an extra creep for you each wave. If he spams W ghoul on cooldown, that's an extra 30 gold a minute. It adds up. Granted, Yorick probably zones you hard so it'll help mitigate the lost cs, but it's still a nerf to an already underplayed champion. I know it was a conscious decision, and I disliked it from the start. The idea that these ghouls chase you around automatically, then give you no reward for actually doing something about them is silly. As for the reasoning, why shouldn't yorick be punished for playing in that spam-happy manner? I'm not saying that Yorick's current kit or playstyle is a good thing. I absolutely hate it and am ashamed to admit I spammed a ton of Yorick games for frelo when he was released. I'm just saying that it makes no sense to nerf an already underplayed and underpowered champion without buffing them in other areas.
I'm relatively sure he is being changed in preparation for his rework. I sincerely disagree with your reasoning for not touching "underplayed/ underpowered champions". I think QoL changes are always acceptable for the game as a whole.
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On October 01 2013 08:08 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 08:02 ketchup wrote:On October 01 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 01 2013 07:50 ketchup wrote:
This is something that should have happened with Yorick when he was first released. It has frustrated me for so long that his ghouls had no gold on kill. It makes no sense that they had 0 gold value. If I remember correctly, ghouls granting no gold on kill was a conscious balance decision made by Riot. If Yorick spams his E ghoul on cooldown and you kill it every time, that's 50 gold a minute, which is basically an extra creep for you each wave. If he spams W ghoul on cooldown, that's an extra 30 gold a minute. It adds up. Granted, Yorick probably zones you hard so it'll help mitigate the lost cs, but it's still a nerf to an already underplayed champion. I know it was a conscious decision, and I disliked it from the start. The idea that these ghouls chase you around automatically, then give you no reward for actually doing something about them is silly. As for the reasoning, why shouldn't yorick be punished for playing in that spam-happy manner? I'm not saying that Yorick's current kit or playstyle is a good thing. I absolutely hate it and am ashamed to admit I spammed a ton of Yorick games for frelo when he was released. I'm just saying that it makes no sense to nerf an already underplayed and underpowered champion without buffing them in other areas.
You have changed my mind. You not pure soul at all, you the epitome of all evils. Spam Yorick games... somebody think of the children. QQ
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On October 01 2013 08:08 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 08:02 ketchup wrote:On October 01 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 01 2013 07:50 ketchup wrote:
This is something that should have happened with Yorick when he was first released. It has frustrated me for so long that his ghouls had no gold on kill. It makes no sense that they had 0 gold value. If I remember correctly, ghouls granting no gold on kill was a conscious balance decision made by Riot. If Yorick spams his E ghoul on cooldown and you kill it every time, that's 50 gold a minute, which is basically an extra creep for you each wave. If he spams W ghoul on cooldown, that's an extra 30 gold a minute. It adds up. Granted, Yorick probably zones you hard so it'll help mitigate the lost cs, but it's still a nerf to an already underplayed champion. I know it was a conscious decision, and I disliked it from the start. The idea that these ghouls chase you around automatically, then give you no reward for actually doing something about them is silly. As for the reasoning, why shouldn't yorick be punished for playing in that spam-happy manner? I'm not saying that Yorick's current kit or playstyle is a good thing. I absolutely hate it and am ashamed to admit I spammed a ton of Yorick games for frelo when he was released. I'm just saying that it makes no sense to nerf an already underplayed and underpowered champion without buffing them in other areas.
I think he's underplayed for the wrong reasons though, he's not particularly week at the moment, and the reasons pros don't like him don't really transfer to solo. if he gets a lead in lane he can still pretty much solo push down an inhib which is a strong skill to have in solo q
coincidentally not unlike Teemo.
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On October 01 2013 08:08 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 08:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 01 2013 08:02 ketchup wrote:On October 01 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 01 2013 07:50 ketchup wrote:
This is something that should have happened with Yorick when he was first released. It has frustrated me for so long that his ghouls had no gold on kill. It makes no sense that they had 0 gold value. If I remember correctly, ghouls granting no gold on kill was a conscious balance decision made by Riot. If Yorick spams his E ghoul on cooldown and you kill it every time, that's 50 gold a minute, which is basically an extra creep for you each wave. If he spams W ghoul on cooldown, that's an extra 30 gold a minute. It adds up. Granted, Yorick probably zones you hard so it'll help mitigate the lost cs, but it's still a nerf to an already underplayed champion. I know it was a conscious decision, and I disliked it from the start. The idea that these ghouls chase you around automatically, then give you no reward for actually doing something about them is silly. As for the reasoning, why shouldn't yorick be punished for playing in that spam-happy manner? I'm not saying that Yorick's current kit or playstyle is a good thing. I absolutely hate it and am ashamed to admit I spammed a ton of Yorick games for frelo when he was released. I'm just saying that it makes no sense to nerf an already underplayed and underpowered champion without buffing them in other areas. I'm relatively sure he is being changed in preparation for his rework. I sincerely disagrees with your reasoning for not touching "underplayed/ underpowered champions". I think QoL changes are always acceptable for the game as a whole.
I guess we just disagree about what this change qualifies as. I think it's more a nerf than a quality of life change.
On October 01 2013 08:10 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 08:08 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 01 2013 08:02 ketchup wrote:On October 01 2013 07:57 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 01 2013 07:50 ketchup wrote:
This is something that should have happened with Yorick when he was first released. It has frustrated me for so long that his ghouls had no gold on kill. It makes no sense that they had 0 gold value. If I remember correctly, ghouls granting no gold on kill was a conscious balance decision made by Riot. If Yorick spams his E ghoul on cooldown and you kill it every time, that's 50 gold a minute, which is basically an extra creep for you each wave. If he spams W ghoul on cooldown, that's an extra 30 gold a minute. It adds up. Granted, Yorick probably zones you hard so it'll help mitigate the lost cs, but it's still a nerf to an already underplayed champion. I know it was a conscious decision, and I disliked it from the start. The idea that these ghouls chase you around automatically, then give you no reward for actually doing something about them is silly. As for the reasoning, why shouldn't yorick be punished for playing in that spam-happy manner? I'm not saying that Yorick's current kit or playstyle is a good thing. I absolutely hate it and am ashamed to admit I spammed a ton of Yorick games for frelo when he was released. I'm just saying that it makes no sense to nerf an already underplayed and underpowered champion without buffing them in other areas. I think he's underplayed for the wrong reasons though, he's not particularly week at the moment, and the reasons pros don't like him don't really transfer to solo. if he gets a lead in lane he can still pretty much solo push down an inhib which is a strong skill to have in solo q coincidentally not unlike Teemo.
I agree that Yorick and Teemo are both quite viable in solo q and will probably continue to be reasonably viable/strong in solo q after these nerfs. These changes will only make them less attractive in pro play than they already are, which seems pointless. I'll admit that the overall impact of these changes on the meta and pro play are neglible, since the two barely see any play (Yorick sees some play in China as a jungler, but as a jungler this change will hardly impact anything). This just seems like a nerf just cause Morello got bored, rather than changes that are warranted.
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I didn't play old Olaf but, new olaf looks like they want you to build way more ad than would make him useful.
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On October 01 2013 08:19 Slusher wrote:
I didn't play old Olaf but, new olaf looks like they want you to build way more ad than would make him useful.
I think all his AD
ratios just an easy way to say "when you press R all your skills do more deeeps" in an easier to code round about way.
And call me crazy, but I think New Olaf gets a ton of free stats. I'm pretty sure you could still just go balls deep really things and be awesome because you have a ton of free life steal, resists, attack speed, and attack damage straight up.
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New olaf can build Spirit Visage.
He will be OP
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Quick thoughts on Olaf:
- the most important: his new splash sucks ass.
- needs roughly 2 autos to match old E's cooldown with new E at max level with 40% CDR.
- he needs roughly 250 total AD to make up for E's damage nerf (cd changes non-withstanding).
- his steroids go from AS at low HP + AD on W + ArPen during ult to AS et low HP + AS on W+ AD during ult. Since AS is way harder to come by currently and his ult isn't up for every trade/more than once per teamfight, he should have better standing dps than old Olaf at full HP, but worse at low HP. Makes him less good at cleaning-up, but probably better at killing towers (eg. splitpushing) since he doesn't have to hurt himself to get AS.
- ult and W rely more on each other than previously, also the loss of resistances during the ult makes timing it more important. I stand by my initial feeling that Smash made it a "I'm in, time to get unpeelable" button rather than "I want to get in" like it was mostly used before.
- he doesn't get any added benefits of building HP now, and with reduced damage on E he doesn't hurt himself as much, but he still has HP costs and he gets (almost) permanent resists bonuses now. On the other hand if he wants to abuse his low health sustain resistances are still better than HP.
I'd say CDR is still a primary stat on him, and offense still not that big (although if you don't manage your cooldowns/positioning well his damage has def been nerfed with the changes). Balancing HP and resistances is annoying, though HP is probably better in lane and resistances better during the teamfights phase.
He can't push well unless he spams Q at the cost of his mana pool, and he tends to want low-ish cooldowns, so Hydra (for sustain/pushing/AD) or Triforce (for burst/mobility/slot-efficiency) are probably the best single offensive items for him.
SV being even bigger than before Olaf got shafted makes it a total no-brainer as far as MR and CDR go, while Shurelya and Locket aren't really worth it anymore (Shurelya wasn't since the start of s3, Locket isn't anymore since its "merge"). FH suffers from not giving him any HP at all, despite the aura and massive amount of armour synergising well with his low-health sustain and the ability to reach the CDR cap with just 2 items.
Brutalizer/Ghostblade could be a candidate for rounding up CDR, while being rather cheap and with a good active to combine with his ult and W. Would take the offensive slot though.
Main questions for me are going to be:
- How well does he hold up in lane with all the new popular shit, his lack of escape against a heavily ganking meta (and how his lack of burst that doesn't hurt himself makes him quite bad at coming from behind apart from farming with Q) and the general power creep?
- Can he afford to build a single offensive item before tanking it up, as he's def; weaker with 0 offensive items than pre-shaft Olaf? If yes, which one?
- Can he really put up with all the added mobility and peel there's been since his shafting, during teamfights (I don't see him getting Lissandra, for example)?
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EPT
