|
I think NA have a weird approach of seeing things like practice regimen and team structure.
On one hand they praise the Korean model, move into team houses to do the big gamings together, but at the same time they recognize the culture is very different and that they can't follow the same regimen.
I also think that gaming houses is not something NA needs, 10 dudes in one apartment massing games of broodwar happened because of financial constraints. NA needs an office imo, a place where you come in at set hours, and where everything is here to make you focus in the game. you have a set place and set hours, a staff over there to help out, and when working hours are over you go back to your place. These whole frat dorms they have set up do not seem helpfull at all.
|
United States47024 Posts
On September 12 2013 16:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:
For people who aren't professional NA players there isn't that much incentive for them to try and climb the NA ladder and get challenger. If they're mid diamond+ and they're popular that's typically better. The recruitment process is pretty unprofessional here. If you're in korea and you get to the top of challenger and start dumpstering people it's essentially guaranteed you WILL get offers.
From talking to various players, I do know it's definitely true that NA sponsors will drop one player for a different one who may actually be significantly worse for the team's competitive results if the latter player produces higher stream numbers.
|
On September 12 2013 15:55 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 15:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 12 2013 15:43 Seuss wrote:
If someone paid me to do it I'd play/discuss league 14-16 hours per day. That's pretty easy to say when you don't I've lead a WoW raiding guild while holding a full-time salaried position. I did that for roughly four years. I meant what I said, and I know what I'm talking about.
You were still just playing a game. Perspectives tend to change when you start getting paid to do something. Brains are weird like that.
|
United States47024 Posts
There's also a certain pressure that's on you when you can't necessarily quit when you get bored of the game because it's your livelihood.
|
14-16 hours put into an unstable job where your performance dictates the rest of your career compiled with shit pay and no future ahead of you if it fails. Yeah, I'd like to see how you handle that.
|
On September 12 2013 16:18 Itsmedudeman wrote:
14-16 hours put into an unstable job where your performance dictates the rest of your career compiled with shit pay and no future ahead of you if it fails. Yeah, I'd like to see how you handle that.
So like ... real life?
|
No, it's not just their esports infrastructure. In the past decade Korea has had the highest average annual hours worked per worker, it's such an issue that in the last few years their government started making efforts to decrease it and promote leisure. There is also an immense academic pressure on Korean youth, many students spend their entire time studying leading to abnoramlly high depression and suicide rates.
Westerners are far less inclined abandon their free time and completely focus on work/studying, while in Korean society it's somewhat normal to fully dedicate yourself to your trade. I've seen many people accuse NA/EU pro-gamers or being lazy or lacking focus when in fact it's downright strange in our society for a teenager to work for 14-16 hours a day and give up leisure.
In my opinion, it's not that they can't compete with that, but rather that it's not worth it or at least they don't think it's worth it. And I can't blame them for that.
|
On September 12 2013 15:23 Seuss wrote:So I spent the time to make a serious response to Riot's "How 2 fix supportz" thread. Instead of reporting/linking that here, I'd like to lay it out in a non-Q&A format. Supports invest all of their gold in wards and Oracle's Elixirs because those are the most powerful and efficient options available to them. Between the consumable nature of these items and interference from the enemy support/team, supports will spend the entire game sinking their gold into vision and vision control. The ultimate reason supports feel so poor isn't because they have so much less gold than their allies/opponents, but because half of their income or goes into wards/Oracle's/Sightstone. As it stands supports get to complete their first non-vision item around 26-30 minutes into a game, and may get to finish a second item if the game lasts into the 45-50 minute range. That's not very interesting. There are basically three ways to solve the problem: - Retool support items like Shurelya's, Locket, and Crucible to be much cheaper, and thus much easier for a support to complete.
- Make vision/vision control less compelling or costly.
- Increase support income.
These are not exclusive, and I think the optimal solution will involve a little bit of each. Riot's current issue is that they seem oblivious to the first bullet point. They are aware that most of a support's income is going into vision/vision control, and they're aware that supports also make less than other roles to begin with, but they don't seem to realize that part of the problem is that support items are simply too expensive as well.
I think a lot of the poverty hitting Supports is because many are choosing to sacrifice Gp10 runes for combat stats.
Gp10 Quints + Yellows would net an additional +900g by 31:30. That's an entire Kindlegem.
+1200g by 41:30, almost enough to upgrade your Philostone into Shurelya's or Kage's Pick into Morellonomicon.
This is all free compared to a zero Gp10 rune page. However, what am I giving up for all of this gold? From my Support page I lose the Hybrid Pen reds for Armor, the Armor yellows for Gp10, and HP Quints for Gp10.
For +5Gp10 I trade 5.5 Mpen, 8.1 Apen, 5 Armor, and 78 HP. That is not worth it. It takes way too long for these runes to make a substantial impact on the game when global Gp10 and 16 Utility points is already enough to fund an endless supply of wards and maintain Oracles.
A buff to Gp10 runes would be nice, especially since no sane laners would take them.
|
On September 12 2013 16:24 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 16:18 Itsmedudeman wrote:
14-16 hours put into an unstable job where your performance dictates the rest of your career compiled with shit pay and no future ahead of you if it fails. Yeah, I'd like to see how you handle that. So like ... real life?
You work 14-16 hours a day? Also if you get fired from a regular job you can typically find a similar job and continue with your field of choice for the next 50 years. eSports like regular sports depends on your performance and being the absolute best. When you can't do that anymore you need to find something else, and believe it or not everyone isn't chaox.
|
On September 12 2013 16:25 Dan HH wrote:No, it's not just their esports infrastructure. In the past decade Korea has had the highest average annual hours worked per worker, it's such an issue that in the last few years their government started making efforts to decrease it and promote leisure. There is also an immense academic pressure on Korean youth, many students spend their entire time studying leading to abnoramlly high depression and suicide rates. Westerners are far less inclined abandon their free time and completely focus on work/studying, while in Korean society it's somewhat normal to fully dedicate yourself to your trade. I've seen many people accuse NA/EU pro-gamers or being lazy or lacking focus when in fact it's downright strange in our society for a teenager to work for 14-16 hours a day and give up leisure. In my opinion, it's not that they can't compete with that, but rather that it's not worth it or at least they don't think it's worth it. And I can't blame them for that.
Though some Westerners who do still take their leisure time (like Stephano in SC2) do win against Koreans. It's not just how much you practice, but also with the right mindset, doing the right things to improve, etc. Practice is useless if it doesn't help you improve.
|
Russian Federation150 Posts
I'm a bit curious.
Is there anyplace where I can find detailed stats of professional games (at least, LCS ones)?
I'm really interested in seeing average number of wards bought per game and average number of wards bought per minute of game.
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On September 12 2013 15:43 Seuss wrote:
If someone paid me to do it I'd play/discuss league 14-16 hours per day.
But what of your real life friends Monte? What of your family and the outside world? :3
|
On September 12 2013 16:40 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 16:25 Dan HH wrote:No, it's not just their esports infrastructure. In the past decade Korea has had the highest average annual hours worked per worker, it's such an issue that in the last few years their government started making efforts to decrease it and promote leisure. There is also an immense academic pressure on Korean youth, many students spend their entire time studying leading to abnoramlly high depression and suicide rates. Westerners are far less inclined abandon their free time and completely focus on work/studying, while in Korean society it's somewhat normal to fully dedicate yourself to your trade. I've seen many people accuse NA/EU pro-gamers or being lazy or lacking focus when in fact it's downright strange in our society for a teenager to work for 14-16 hours a day and give up leisure. In my opinion, it's not that they can't compete with that, but rather that it's not worth it or at least they don't think it's worth it. And I can't blame them for that. Though some Westerners who do still take their leisure time (like Stephano in SC2) do win against Koreans. It's not just how much you practice, but also with the right mindset, doing the right things to improve, etc. Practice is useless if it doesn't help you improve.
Stephano was an exception. And at the end of his career he was burnt out, and that's from a guy who didn't even practice that much.
|
Not every korean player practices like a machine obviously. There are definitely some who practice the bare minimum that their team requires and still put up good results. There's players like that in each region. But on a whole and in general you will have more good players if the majority of them put in more effort. It's why koreans have so many good players now despite being a much smaller region.
|
Pootie too good!4331 Posts
Dear Roffles,
Due to my short attention span and only being able to browse TL on my phone, your formal letter format has allowed me to realize who is posting what without going back up - saving countless of seconds that I am sure add up to an absurd amount of time.
My only complaint with Regi is that he has so much on his plate. I honestly believe he could be a world class mid, certainly consistently the best mid NA, if he dedicated 100% to being a playerinstead of splitting time between the business and playing. He is clearly the glue of TSM and usually the reason they win or lose.
I am so excited for Worlds it hurts.
Sincerely,
JonGalt
|
Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On September 12 2013 16:09 SagaZ wrote:
I think NA have a weird approach of seeing things like practice regimen and team structure.
On one hand they praise the Korean model, move into team houses to do the big gamings together, but at the same time they recognize the culture is very different and that they can't follow the same regimen.
I also think that gaming houses is not something NA needs, 10 dudes in one apartment massing games of broodwar happened because of financial constraints. NA needs an office imo, a place where you come in at set hours, and where everything is here to make you focus in the game. you have a set place and set hours, a staff over there to help out, and when working hours are over you go back to your place. These whole frat dorms they have set up do not seem helpfull at all.
Yes. This suits American culture so much more. Show up from 8-5, then go home to your family, friends, and your own place. then when something like Worlds comes up you can bootcamp. I'd really like to see more Americans do this. they blindly copy the Korean model without really knowing why it works.
|
Most players don't live in the same areas so they would have to get new places by the office. That's part of the reason for them combining the two since they want to save costs by renting more if they lived in the same city it would make a lot of sense to just get an office
|
|
|
On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:
There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no.
To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late).
The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment.
On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung.
|
Buwahahahaha that is fucking awesome.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
