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On September 01 2013 00:50 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2013 00:48 Slusher wrote:On September 01 2013 00:45 Numy wrote:On September 01 2013 00:17 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2013 22:39 Numy wrote:On August 31 2013 22:37 Mikau wrote:On August 31 2013 22:27 Numy wrote:
It seems like the reason they won't change the number of bans is that they want parity between Ranked draft and what is played in Competitive games. Really silly if you ask me. Maybe they will change since they had set a precedent with the tower changes being 100% for competitive games.
Honestly Ranked draft shouldn't even have bans. It's utterly meaningless. What's wrong with both ranked and the pro scene getting more (5?) bans? Don't think Riot wants to force new players to require even more champs to get into draft mode. Also we aren't talking about 5 bans at the start I believe. When you reference dota draft mode I would assume he's talking about interlacing bans which is too complex for 5 randoms. In the past Riot made some post about interlacing bans which was largely incorrect reasoning. Think this was because the original query mentioned Dota drafting and when it comes to Dota Riot has had zero understanding followed by terrible logic. The problem is the insistence that the draft mode seen in competitive games and the draft mode seen in solo queue have to be the same. Granted this does have some up-sides as well, but it limits what you can do with the competitive game. I did mention this in the previous post  . Yango pls. Just out of curiosity what are the benefits of keeping parity? it's just a deeper level of strategy than, better pick Kennen/Jayce/Ryze or lose top lane. It also means that players can differentiate themselves better with deep pools, and it can prevent the meta from zoning out your signature champions. Jax is a perfect example of a champion who has been strong ever since the botrk changes but simply could not handle kennen or Ryze or 1v2, so he just sorta dissapeared for a couple months. That isn't really an argument for parity. That's more an argument for keeping bans in ranked which was in another post of mine but makes a lot of sense to me either way. What I'm really asking is what is the benefit of keeping the competitive game drafting structure the same as ranked solo q(Team should stay same as competitive).
Considering how a lot of pro-players (especially now), are picked off of solo queue, I guess Riot wants to keep the parity between solo queue, and pro-play as a sort of comparison between the two. Gives new incoming players the hope of going pro.
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On September 01 2013 00:50 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2013 00:48 Slusher wrote:On September 01 2013 00:45 Numy wrote:On September 01 2013 00:17 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2013 22:39 Numy wrote:On August 31 2013 22:37 Mikau wrote:On August 31 2013 22:27 Numy wrote:
It seems like the reason they won't change the number of bans is that they want parity between Ranked draft and what is played in Competitive games. Really silly if you ask me. Maybe they will change since they had set a precedent with the tower changes being 100% for competitive games.
Honestly Ranked draft shouldn't even have bans. It's utterly meaningless. What's wrong with both ranked and the pro scene getting more (5?) bans? Don't think Riot wants to force new players to require even more champs to get into draft mode. Also we aren't talking about 5 bans at the start I believe. When you reference dota draft mode I would assume he's talking about interlacing bans which is too complex for 5 randoms. In the past Riot made some post about interlacing bans which was largely incorrect reasoning. Think this was because the original query mentioned Dota drafting and when it comes to Dota Riot has had zero understanding followed by terrible logic. The problem is the insistence that the draft mode seen in competitive games and the draft mode seen in solo queue have to be the same. Granted this does have some up-sides as well, but it limits what you can do with the competitive game. I did mention this in the previous post . Yango pls. Just out of curiosity what are the benefits of keeping parity? it's just a deeper level of strategy than, better pick Kennen/Jayce/Ryze or lose top lane. It also means that players can differentiate themselves better with deep pools, and it can prevent the meta from zoning out your signature champions. Jax is a perfect example of a champion who has been strong ever since the botrk changes but simply could not handle kennen or Ryze or 1v2, so he just sorta dissapeared for a couple months. That isn't really an argument for parity. That's more an argument for keeping bans in ranked which was in another post of mine but makes a lot of sense to me either way. What I'm really asking is what is the benefit of keeping the competitive game drafting structure the same as ranked solo q(Team should stay same as competitive).
One big upside is that keeping your 'competitive' game as close to the game that your playerbase regularly plays encourages more attachment to the competitive scene. It helps develop the competitive scene, and brings in more viewers. Other games have shown this to be true time and time again(TF2 one of the great recent examples). This is probably one of the main reasons Riot is 'guiding'(read:enforcing, but they don't like to say that) the meta game as well.
That's not to say there won't be any crossover(there are surely fans that play only aram or only blind pick norms that still spectate/follow the pro scene), but the less crossover there has to be the better for the product as a whole.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 01 2013 00:45 Numy wrote:
Just out of curiosity what are the benefits of keeping parity?
It's one of many things that LoL has done to make someone's personal LoL experience more relatable to the competitive game, which I think Riot has put emphasis on doing many times, and is actually quite good for growing both sides of the game.
One of the old adages of DotA is that competitive DotA and pub DotA are two different games. The disconnect between the two leads to a somewhat awkward divide at times between the player and the spectator, as someone's typical pub experience tends to not match up at all with competitive play. In fact, one of the most common errors made by mid-level players is trying to bring what they saw at major tournaments into solo pub games--pub games don't play the same way so a lot of the time that stuff is useless to you if you don't have a deeper understanding of what makes it good.
The disconnect exists in LoL too, but by and large, Riot has made a large effort to make the way the game plays in solo queue and the way the game plays in competitive play to be at least somewhat relate-able. This both aids the spectator in understanding the competitive game better, as well as helping to ease spectators into playing the game as well.
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I think banning from LoL is still evolving, despite how limited it is. Like I mentioned earlier, the ban styles of changed quite a bit. Often with more limited formats even more creative solutions can evolve.
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United States47024 Posts
Sort of late to this, but:
On August 31 2013 13:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
/rantmode
I am fairly new to LoL (level 13) and I played with one of the most frustrating teams ever. I like playing as Teemo (he is quick, can escape, can do damage and grants a lot of map vision) and it was like nothing I did was ever right. Team is something like Akali, Lucian, Rammus, Teemo, and Yi. Lucian tells me I am support (first I had ever heard of this, but whatever) and to not cs. I am like "ok whatever", so I harass the Ashe in our lane (she is solo) using Q for a while. Eventually I get her low enough that I Q then incinerate and the tower barely kills me (and Ashe dies too). Lucian somehow dives and dies to the tower shortly after. I dont even know wtf happened there.
After that happens and I get back I decide we should probably push a little so I hit each creep once so that Lucian can still last hit. Lucian tells me to stop cs and I am like "wtf im not". Anyway, so I stop hitting creep at all. I am basically just there absorbing exp. Then I hit level 6 and start shrooming, we are bot so I get the bushes, the river, then I head towards mid to get that shroomed and he starts calling me a noob and to get back down there.
Anyway, game goes on and we start to fall behind barely and Lucian immediately calls a surrender vote (which obviously doesnt pass). Game goes on longer, its still close. Lucian calls another surrender vote, it fails, he afks for like 5 minutes. We still hold on. We end up getting the ace with them in our base, but they have a lot of creep killing our top and bot tower so I shroom and clean them up as fast as I can, meanwhile the team is split on what to do. So we have 2 at roshan and 2 pushing towards their base (which made no sense, by the time they reached the base they had respawned), and me heading towards roshan. 2 at their base obviously die doing almost nothing, we get neither roshan nor anything else.
This happens like 3 more times before we finally lose. Chat afterwards has 1 guy saying to report basically our entire team and calling me a noob etc.
I finished something like 6-11-16
/rant
Anyway, have any of you experienced players ever heard of a support teemo? Should I have been killing creeps? Did I do anything particularly wrong?
I would show the replay but my lolrecorder was ancient so it looks like the replay is corrupt.
Just as a note related to this, I really hate how much the idea of things like role assignment pervade low level LoL. It's really useless for games at that level, and is actually arguably detrimental to the learning experience for a new player.
If you were teaching elementary school kids his first few games of Basketball, you wouldn't suddenly go assigning positions to them within their first few games, because that shit makes no fucking sense. Positions are meaningless without a deep enough understanding of how the game is actually supposed to play for them to actually be useful. If you're forcing players to take up roles before they're ready, you're just adding an even greater burden of knowledge to a game that's already confusing as hell for people to learn the first time.
I don't even know how people started getting games where you're forced to play support at level 13. The only thing I can conclude from that is that either people are fucking awful at teaching their friends how to play the game and are forcing roles on them at like level 5, or that the early levels of the game are infested with smurfs who force this on other people.
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I wouldn't mind a fourth ban.
In terms of solo queue, I feel like 6 months ago there was this staple of must ban champions, like Blitz, Thresh, Shen, and your OP junglers of choice. ADC, mid and top lane were by and large just not worth bans.
Now I see all sorts of all over the place bans. Blitz, Thresh and Shen are still there, but now I see TF, Kassadin, Nunu, Zac, Yi, Jarvan, Malphite, Elise, Vayne, Tryndamere, Ezreal, etc.
I appreciate the idea that in competitive play you don't want to ban out everybodies crowd favorite champions. I also appreciate the idea that increasing the bans to 4 would mean a player has to have 18 champions instead of 16 to enter ranked games, and I remember having to grind to get those 16 champions before I could start playing ranked and it being kind of annoying.
But as competitive players keep playing the game, their champion pools increase. Over time the total number of champions increases, and as Riot continues balancing the game the number of viable champions (hopefully) increases, and with their champion IP reduction scheme they've got going, the minimum IP cost of getting to 16-18 champs is decreasing.
Basically the longer the game goes on, the better of an idea adding more bans is going to be. If it's not worth doing now, it will be eventually.
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On September 01 2013 01:14 TheYango wrote:
I don't even know how people started getting games where you're forced to play support at level 13. The only thing I can conclude from that is that either people are fucking awful at teaching their friends how to play the game and are forcing roles on them at like level 5, or that the early levels of the game are infested with smurfs who force this on other people.
From what i've seen among my friends. the first thing that people are asked when they are starting lol with their friends is "what position do you want to play".
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It's not necessarily just adding bans though, Ketara. Just adding bans won't change too much to how limited the format is (or at least from what Yango's arguing).
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I do like the dota pick/ban format. I think it's more involved than LoL's, and I think that's a good thing.
Probably one of the only things where I actually think dota is better than LoL 
Edit: I dont agree with solo queue and competitive play having different draft formats though. While it might be good on a strictly competitive basis, I think it is extremely important that the fans and the competitive players be playing the exact same game, for reasons Yango so eloquently put up above.
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I have no idea if it's the kids because of the week-end, or lag being back on EUW, but so far 100% of my games today have had dc's.
Also 4 games in a row where I'm up against a 4-man premade when we're either a duo or two and the rest solos. This is so damn grating with all the camping going on.
Also just laned against my first Steel Legion Lux. Several times she casted her Q and I looked at it ready to pass me by... nope, it somehow hit me despite being visibly off. Urgh, I get why people hate that skin.
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MVP is going to hand over the LoL team to Khan, SC2 team is going to disband, and Prime is hoping that they'll pick up sponsor through KeSPA
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oO didn't know MVP Team was in such a bad position, though I haven't followed Sc2 much. Ozone and blue going to Samsung Khan can't be bad though.
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Is it neccesarily a bad thing to introduce the game with "What do you want to play"?
Everyone who plays video games has played an RPG before, everyone knows what kind of gameplay they enjoy. I dunno, I dont think it is absurd to compare roles to say Classes in WoW, Pokemon, Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem etc.
People know whether they like to play Ranged champions, Burst/AoE mages, Tanks, or Healers from vast other experience. I dont think it is bad to ask and give them a champion based upon what they like to play. It is bad to pigeonhole them into a certian role, but I dont think that really happens.
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United States47024 Posts
That's all well and fine.
The problem is when you force people into the formula of AP mid, AD+Support duo where support gets 0 CS, etc. Because there's no real meaning to that until you have played enough to really understand why those are the norm.
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On September 01 2013 01:56 iCanada wrote:
Is it neccesarily a bad thing to introduce the game with "What do you want to play"?
Everyone who plays video games has played an RPG before, everyone knows what kind of gameplay they enjoy. I dunno, I dont think it is absurd to compare roles to say Classes in WoW, Pokemon, Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem etc.
People know whether they like to play Ranged champions, Burst/AoE mages, Tanks, or Healers from vast other experience. I dont think it is bad to ask and give them a champion based upon what they like to play. It is bad to pigeonhole them into a certian role, but I dont think that really happens.
saying "what do you want to play" is inherently different than saying "what position do you want to play" though. IF a player likes to heal a lot, he's going to be put as a 0 cs support in games, instead of being able to pick soraka and get farm. it honestly doesn't matter at all at low levels who gets the farm. or at least it SHOULDN'T.
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i just tell people that are new to do what I did - look at the champs that are free. read their abilities and play the ones you think look fun.
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On September 01 2013 02:02 Klonopin wrote:
i just tell people that are new to do what I did - look at the champs that are free. read their abilities and play the ones you think look fun.
Good man. This is how it should be done. Maybe can tell them what is good to build on said characters while explaining why too.
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United States47024 Posts
The recommended items are a lot better than they used to be, TBH.
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On September 01 2013 02:00 TheYango wrote:
That's all well and fine.
The problem is when you force people into the formula of AP mid, AD+Support duo where support gets 0 CS, etc. Because there's no real meaning to that until you have played enough to really understand why those are the norm.
To expand slightly, until players have enough game knowledge to get why you want to funnel farm to a particular champion at the expense of another, but still have that secondary champion around it's not productive to run a lane that way because the players involved won't leverage that set-up. Much more important to learning the game than 'roles' are general champion abilities, and what the can do to/for/against/with you.
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EPT
