Malphite is reliable initiation from great range. Nautilus is delayed, non-reliable initiation. His Q has a long cd and a whacky hitbox making it hard to snipe people in 5v5s. His passive suffers from his low AS and dubious animation. His E is really bad if you don't hit people with the first wave or they're cc'd already because somebody walking away from you usually walks faster than the wave thanks to the headstart the animation gives them (Naut stops before casting). He has no damage to speak off because he won't get many W-powered autos and the damage is super low.
I wouldn't compare him to Malph at all. He's great at locking down at short range, but can't do much to mobile champions because of how fast they leave his area, can't initiate reliably, and his damage his negligible late game. This post sounds overly negative, it's not to the point where he's trash tier and shouldn't ever be picked, but reallistically he's both outclassed by a huge margin in his niche, and bad by himself (like Maokai) with his current state and the jungle's.
You can make him work, but then the comp has to be adapted to him instead of the opposite, which also works heavily against a jungler.
I hate playing top. I dont understand how to carry from there.
You can't snowball for shit. And even if you do, you cannot make it amount to anything because it impossible to roam.
Always win lane, always lose game. Zzz... I just feel like I get three man ganked until the 15 minute mark when everyone groups, then that it. If I lucky my team grabs an objective, but usually not.
Feels like Win lane hard, lose game. I dunno, maybe I can make people rotate out with me or something.
When I win top lane I don't go to them (enemy team) unless it's time to group. Make them come to you by threatening to kill their top laner over and over while threatening to shove all the way to their inhib, This takes pressure off your team, and puts more on theirs, also, feel free to take their jungle including their buffs so their jungle can pay for your deep wards since their top laner is now worth less than their jungle minions.
On August 15 2013 08:43 Alaric wrote: Malphite is reliable initiation from great range. Nautilus is delayed, non-reliable initiation. His Q has a long cd and a whacky hitbox making it hard to snipe people in 5v5s. His passive suffers from his low AS and dubious animation. His E is really bad if you don't hit people with the first wave or they're cc'd already because somebody walking away from you usually walks faster than the wave thanks to the headstart the animation gives them (Naut stops before casting). He has no damage to speak off because he won't get many W-powered autos and the damage is super low.
I wouldn't compare him to Malph at all. He's great at locking down at short range, but can't do much to mobile champions because of how fast they leave his area, can't initiate reliably, and his damage his negligible late game. This post sounds overly negative, it's not to the point where he's trash tier and shouldn't ever be picked, but reallistically he's both outclassed by a huge margin in his niche, and bad by himself (like Maokai) with his current state and the jungle's.
You can make him work, but then the comp has to be adapted to him instead of the opposite, which also works heavily against a jungler.
Malphite's ult range is 1000, Naut's is 850. The difference in range isn't that significant, and Naut's ult is much more flexible. I don't see why you'd call it unreliable initiation-- if you can target a squishy with the ult, you've got him effectively out of the fight for at least two seconds.
Yes he has animation problems, but they aren't that bad if you suffer through and adapt to them. Yes I would like Riot to give him a quality of life buff. All you have to do is go HAM, whack whatever you can once each. You are Nautilus. You are tanky as shit. You don't care if their entire time is focusing you.
His damage is fine. It's more or less the same as anyone who builds full tank. His damage looks shitty when you hit a fed bruiser or a tank, but if you whack a squishy, it will still hurt.
Nautilus isn't the best jungler right now because of a slow clear and slow movespeed, but he is not weak lategame.
On August 15 2013 07:50 Alaric wrote: Way more wards available with the common openings doesn't make it easy for him to gank, especially since he'll be expected to, even at level 2.
That seems like a problem common to any jungler that can't completely bypass wards (SEE: Nasus, Elise, etc.).
I think it's more the fact that Alistar's jungle clear is pretty slow even by today's metric. He's also a terrible duelist and prone to counterjungling. On top of that, I wouldn't give him the edge in early 2v2s especially when J4 and Elise see so much play.
My initial query was basically, "I'm messing around with Jungle Alistar and speed doesn't seem to be an issue." So I'm essentially fishing for other issues to consider.
At this point I think I'd like to give him a whirl when I get back home tonight, but if you have any other thoughts feel free to share them.
What I meant is that you can't Flash-ult initiate as Nautilus, for example, also champions can get away from the charge's path if they aren't too close when you cast it. Sure, it can help clear the way by inciting people to split up, but good reactions times, a Shurelya, or other MS boosts make it somewhat easy to disengage even after Naut ults (and you wouldn't chase unless you're ahead).
Compared to Malph who can get a clean, instant knock-up if the enemy is bunched up within up to 1150 range, it's not quite the same. I'm not saying that Naut's ult is bad per see, however it doesn't have the same use cases as Malph's (it's pretty good at counter initiating for example, like Tidal Wave or Crescendo).
Another problem with Nautilus is that his damage comes primarily from his shield for most of the game (Q single-target, E unreliable against moving targets, ult doesn't hit secondary targets that hard), which is easy to destroy come later game and relies on his shaky combo AS/animations. Add to that that it was nerfed recently:
Damage changed to 40/55/70/85/100 from 30/55/80/105/130.
It may not seem much, but you really feel it (30% less damage on your AoE sustained spell hurts).
I love him, and I'd love to play him more, but it's really hard to pick him early for example because of how abusable he is, and vulnerable (invade, break his shield -> he can't clear for the next ~20s) so picking good duelists/counterjunglers to fuck him up is a real threat, esp. with the current popular ones, and he contributes so little damage in the late game that your team has to account for it (Zac's base damage are really huge, and Sejuani's W is strong dps served by an almost continuous uptime). The fact that Zac and Malphite are arguably better top lane also allows to funnel more farm toward them, which is another thing, though. But while I'd feel comfortable first picking Zac or Sejuani, or maybe even Amumu, picking Nautilus would make me fear a J4 pick on the enemy team almost as much as a Shen or Ezreal on ours.
On August 15 2013 09:45 Parametric wrote: When I win top lane I don't go to them (enemy team) unless it's time to group. Make them come to you by threatening to kill their top laner over and over while threatening to shove all the way to their inhib, This takes pressure off your team, and puts more on theirs, also, feel free to take their jungle including their buffs so their jungle can pay for your deep wards since their top laner is now worth less than their jungle minions.
I guess I just bad at coordinating my team to take advantage of map pressure elsewhere. I dunno, I main Jungle/Support because that always just allowed me to wreck things with nothing but superior map awareness. I dont mind AD because I farm pretty well and Mid just like Jungling except you get to last hit minions instead of buff camps.
On August 15 2013 07:50 Alaric wrote: Way more wards available with the common openings doesn't make it easy for him to gank, especially since he'll be expected to, even at level 2.
That seems like a problem common to any jungler that can't completely bypass wards (SEE: Nasus, Elise, etc.).
I think it's more the fact that Alistar's jungle clear is pretty slow even by today's metric. He's also a terrible duelist and prone to counterjungling. On top of that, I wouldn't give him the edge in early 2v2s especially when J4 and Elise see so much play.
My initial query was basically, "I'm messing around with Jungle Alistar and speed doesn't seem to be an issue." So I'm essentially fishing for other issues to consider.
At this point I think I'd like to give him a whirl when I get back home tonight, but if you have any other thoughts feel free to share them.
Yea i just tried it and you're right. Speed isn't really an issue anymore. Still, I can't imagine he'd be very resilient against counterjungling, especially against the popular junglers.
I don't think I would want to invade a level 2 Alistar with the threat of his lanes collapsing on me. His cc is still pretty scary even though his base damage got shat on.
On August 15 2013 11:13 Alaric wrote: I don't think I would want to invade a level 2 Alistar with the threat of his lanes collapsing on me. His cc is still pretty scary even though his base damage got shat on.
At least half of counter-jungling is having confidence in your allies coming to your aid or in your opponent's being unable to.
Question: If Yorick is so amazing, how come you never see him in the pro scene. Granted I don't watch tons of games, but I don't know of any pro that plays a lot of Yorick or see him picked/banned.
On August 15 2013 12:03 Jerubaal wrote: Question: If Yorick is so amazing, how come you never see him in the pro scene. Granted I don't watch tons of games, but I don't know of any pro that plays a lot of Yorick or see him picked/banned.
Because he's so god damn boring both to play and to play against. Games are still supposed to be fun now.
On August 15 2013 12:03 Jerubaal wrote: Question: If Yorick is so amazing, how come you never see him in the pro scene. Granted I don't watch tons of games, but I don't know of any pro that plays a lot of Yorick or see him picked/banned.
EPT
