EPTThe version of the game played at Worlds just happened to be the absolutely perfect version for TPA's 3-lane splitpush style. They actually haven't shown much flexibility playing anything but that style at all, it's just that in a version that's good for it, their understanding of how to play it was better than anyone else's.
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The version of the game played at Worlds just happened to be the absolutely perfect version for TPA's 3-lane splitpush style. They actually haven't shown much flexibility playing anything but that style at all, it's just that in a version that's good for it, their understanding of how to play it was better than anyone else's. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On June 30 2013 19:02 Gahlo wrote: If you can play safely with a Dblade, you can play safely with consumables too. Regardless of starting items, you're bound to buy potions and wards. It's less a matter of "saving" gold on consumables and more on when you pay for them. Yes but consumables don't bring combat stats. DBlade is an investment in pure stats, and if you can just go even in lane while opening with it, you're already ahead ! Personnaly I open Dblade on Riven in all matchups, E first against ranged heroes, and I still have to see a matchup where it doesn't work. And then you come back to lane with a ~300g advantage compared to all those consumables heavy openings. EDIT : and no, you don't have to buy potions in every game. Wards I do agree, but you can play entire games without buying a single pot if you go for early sustain with a champion who has built-in sustain/shield. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On June 30 2013 16:08 Neverhood wrote: The first 2 games are already uploaded, I think the rest should be up soon as well. Can somebody pm me the link for whatever game westrice played in (or just link it here)? I heard he went the fuck off today and he's always been one of my favorite players. On topic of dblade though, it's really strong UNLESS you die and then it puts you pretty far behind, so yeah, it's a calculated risk. I feel like you can get away with it on champs like Aatrox/Riven/Panth (?) because of how it changes the lane dynamic. Your opponent has to play more carefully against you because you'll win an all-in 1v1 so it makes playing defensively and farming a lot easier. You know the only danger is being harassed down or ganked so you can play accordingly. Usually if I dblade I'm pushing the lane pretty hard so that my creeps damage them back when they harass me, making them blow potions while I farm on my passive sustain. If I make it back to fountain I'm way ahead for the next couple levels. | ||
Fionn
United States23455 Posts
On June 30 2013 19:07 kainzero wrote: This seems like a strange post. Unless SEA was dicking around, you can pretty much say that they put in as much effort as all the other regions since they have GPL. Every single region has their own weekly league now, some even have multiple leagues. I don't know how you can get better when all the regions are regulated like that. Okay, let us use real sports. Take Barcelona. If you take Barcelona and put them in, I dunno, the MLS (America's premiere football/soccer league), then they're going to never lose a game, but eventually regress. While MLS teams try hard and practice probably just as hard as other leagues, they just aren't that good. Teams who regularly are playing against high caliber teams week in and week out are going to get better. Korea, right now, has by far the best depth of teams in the world, and the quality of teams pushes them to get faster than the other regions. Another reason why TPA kinda bombed out was due to the whole making of Snipers, moving Mistake, and having the team collapse from that point-of-view, but destroying teams might look amazing on paper, but it's not going to get you ready to play teams from Korea or even China. If Korea had stagnated and just continued to be Frost and Blaze beating up everyone, they could have very well regressed as well. Luckily, Sword, SKT, KT and the huge player base in Korea created new stars, stronger teams, and has made OGN a highly competitive region where it pushes teams to get better and better. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Picks and bans. Bans KT Rolster B: Thresh, Jayce, Twisted Fate Saigon Jokers: Zed, Lee Sin, Zac Picks KT Rolster B: Elise, Nunu, Lissandra, Vayne, Leona Saigon Jokers: Malphite, Jarvan IV, Lux, Ezreal, Sona 1) Nunu (inSec) ganks the top-lane, but gets counter ganked by Jarvan IV and gets killed for first blood. Elise kills Malphite but gets killed by Jarvan IV in a two for one exchange. 2-1 lead for Saigon Jokers. 2) After Vayne does successful trades against the Saigon Jokers bottom lane, a Lissandra roams to the bottom lane for a dive. 3-2 in favour of KT Rolster B. 3) Jarvan IV ganks Elise, and manages to get away from a Lissandra roam. Lissandra (Ryu) dies at enemy top-lane tower trying to kill Jarvan IV. Nunu gets caught out by a pre-placed ward, and Lux kills him. 4-3 lead for Saigon Jokers. 4) Jarvan IV ganks top again and kills Elise (Homme). Saigon Joker's bottom lane tower is destroyed. 5-3 lead for Saigon Jokers. 5) Malphite goes down to secure a dragon. KT Rolster B counters by taking the top-lane tower. Sona gets caught out in the mid-lane. 5-4 lead for Saigon Jokers. 6) Jarvan IV and Lux gets caught trying to take down the top-lane tower. 8-5 lead for KT Rolster B. 3k gold lead for KT Rolster B at 18 minutes. 7) Stalemate at the mid-lane, then KT Rolster B dives but gets stopped by Lux's bind. They still kite well, but Leona dies. 13-6 lead for KT Rolster B. 8) Nunu (inSec) tries to counter-jungle, but gets binded by Lux and dies. Saigon Jokers tries to press their numbers advantage by initiating a fight at the top-lane, but Vayne (Score) is left freely to maximize his DPS as 3 members of Saigon Jokers die. Elise tries to push the inhibitor tower at the top-lane, but Lux takes her out with her ultimate. 9) Nunu initiates a fight with his ultimate, Jarvan IV counter-iniates but Vayne kills him. Elise split-pushes at the top and kills Ezreal who tried to stop her. Saigon Jokers try to back him up but Lissandra and Vayne ambush them. 22-10 lead for KT Rolster B who has a 15k gold lead. 10) Lissandra initiates a fight by killing Sona at the mid-lane inhibitor tower, but Ezreal is left alone to deal damage as Saigon Jokers comes out on top in a 2 for 4 exchange.They kill KT Rolster B's mid-lane tower. 11) KT Rolster is rotating towards bottom to take down the towers, but Sona stuns Nunu and Lissandra with her ultimate and they are killed. KT Rolster B tries to join the fight but lose Elise too. Meanwhile minions take down the top inhibitor tower. 12) Elise is caught by Lux and Jarvan IV and is killed. Nunu does solo-dragon, while Saigon Jokers is struggling against super-minions. 30-21 lead for KT Rolster B who retains their 15k gold advantage. 13) Saigon Jokers make their last stand at their nexus, with Jarvan IV getting a good initiate to the fight, but Elise gets a quadra-kill while Vayne is left untouched. KT Rolster B advances to the finals with a 2-0 score. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
1) The bottom half of the table is absolutely terrible, and its what gives people the impression about the region. 2) The top 3/4 GPL teams can give other teams a run for their money on their best. The problem is that they aren't that great anyway. SAJ narrowly beating NA at s2, the weakest region, as a top 3 team in GPL 3) However, since TPA used to shit on all of them, they got lumped together. That and I guess the NA desperately needed to laugh at someone. TL:DR The "Better teams" in the GPL aren't completely terrible, but they are not strong either. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 30 2013 19:40 cascades wrote: Letmelose: 1) The bottom half of the table is absolutely terrible, and its what gives people the impression about the region. 2) The top 3/4 GPL teams can give other teams a run for their money on their best. The problem is that they aren't that great anyway. SAJ narrowly beating NA at s2, the weakest region, as a top 3 team in GPL 3) However, since TPA used to shit on all of them, they got lumped together. That and I guess the NA desperately needed to laugh at someone. TL:DR The "Better teams" in the GPL aren't completely terrible, but they are not strong either. 1) Couldn't that be said for a lot of the other regions as well? Take the LPL Spring Season for example, did anyone really think Wayi Spider China was a decent team? GPL as a competition does suffer from stagnation more than the other competitions from other regions due to their format, but who's to say that there aren't good up-and-coming teams in the region? I don't think lack of competion explains everything. Teams in the GPL weren't the only contacts TPA had, if anything, there was a definate rise in the number of professional Taiwanese teams after TPA's good fortunes at the international level. TPA probably played a major role in the growth of the professional LoL scene in Taiwan, it puzzles me somewhat that their form suffered so much despite there being a stronger case for the "lack of infrastructure and competition" argument during season 2. Of course, things were much worse in the other regions as well back then, but I still feel that the "lack of competition" doesn't explain everything. 2) Singapore Sentinels consistently lost to Chinese, Korean, and North American teams at international tournaments during season 2. I really didn't think much of them at all, however, a Korean guy who watched GPL frequently this year told me that they were pretty decent, suggesting perhaps around the level of a lower to mid-tier professional team in Korea and China. I personally thought otherwise, but it's really hard to argue against someone who watched more than you. Everything you say are based on a smaller pool of games, and ends up being speculations. Is it possible that they improved vastly in recent weeks? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 30 2013 19:44 TheYango wrote: Letmelose, if you're going to translate/LR for a tournament I think it would be more suitable for you to make a thread for this in Tournaments. Sure thing. I think the guy who updated us has ran out of battery on his cell phone anyways. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On June 30 2013 20:00 Letmelose wrote: Sure thing. I think the guy who updated us has ran out of battery on his cell phone anyways. Thank you for the report. Is there anyway there is VOD for this event. Asian Indoor Game is kind of rarely event while e-sports compete side by side with conventional sports. I though it would have muc more coverage than this. Also, looks like Achie and Jay is gonna join TPA, Achie is Saigon Jokers ADC that put on quite a show with his Ezeral at S2 World Final. I have no idea who Jay is though. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On June 30 2013 19:37 Fionn wrote: Okay, let us use real sports. Take Barcelona. If you take Barcelona and put them in, I dunno, the MLS (America's premiere football/soccer league), then they're going to never lose a game, but eventually regress. While MLS teams try hard and practice probably just as hard as other leagues, they just aren't that good. Teams who regularly are playing against high caliber teams week in and week out are going to get better. Korea, right now, has by far the best depth of teams in the world, and the quality of teams pushes them to get faster than the other regions. Another reason why TPA kinda bombed out was due to the whole making of Snipers, moving Mistake, and having the team collapse from that point-of-view, but destroying teams might look amazing on paper, but it's not going to get you ready to play teams from Korea or even China. If Korea had stagnated and just continued to be Frost and Blaze beating up everyone, they could have very well regressed as well. Luckily, Sword, SKT, KT and the huge player base in Korea created new stars, stronger teams, and has made OGN a highly competitive region where it pushes teams to get better and better. Even if Barca could go to MLS and beat up noobs, why would they do that? There are MLS players that don't even get paid enough to survive on the salary and have to pick up a side job. But the leagues in LoL aren't completely different. They're all operated practically the same. That's why, no matter how I look at it, TPA couldn't do anything short of moving to another region to compete. They're not really complacent because they've been doing exactly what every other region is doing. When there is international competition, they do enter. (TPA did defeat OMG in the nVidia Game Festival...) | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
On June 30 2013 20:14 Caphe wrote: Also, looks like Achie and Jay is gonna join TPA, Achie is Saigon Jokers ADC that put on quite a show with his Ezeral at S2 World Final. I have no idea who Jay is though. Archie =/= Achie. Achie is a high elo TW player iirc. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On June 30 2013 19:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Can somebody pm me the link for whatever game westrice played in (or just link it here)? I heard he went the fuck off today and he's always been one of my favorite players. On topic of dblade though, it's really strong UNLESS you die and then it puts you pretty far behind, so yeah, it's a calculated risk. I feel like you can get away with it on champs like Aatrox/Riven/Panth (?) because of how it changes the lane dynamic. Your opponent has to play more carefully against you because you'll win an all-in 1v1 so it makes playing defensively and farming a lot easier. You know the only danger is being harassed down or ganked so you can play accordingly. Usually if I dblade I'm pushing the lane pretty hard so that my creeps damage them back when they harass me, making them blow potions while I farm on my passive sustain. If I make it back to fountain I'm way ahead for the next couple levels. If you push that hard on Panth, unless you've got a huge wave for you (which won't happen immediatly) or you harassed the other guy so hard he'll die if he tries to commit, any level 3 gank from the jungler is going to destroy you because of the lack of escape. Even if you don't lose much HP nor blow flash, the simple fact that the jungler can be there, waiting for you to walk past river again to jump you, will zone you and put you behind. Of course you can plan a countergank with your jungler too. | ||
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
not sure whether u can view it | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
If I start Dblade on Pantheon I just push hard early while spamming spears hard, hit lvl 2, allin with ghost and ignite the second I hit lvl 2, pick first blood or force the enemy to back or to chug pots. After that you can push the wave to the turret and just go buy. This happens way before the 3min gank timing but of course depends on the lanes. If it's not an opponent you can properly allin at 2 I wouldn't start doran blade, it's too vulnerable. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
On June 30 2013 19:59 Letmelose wrote: 1) Couldn't that be said for a lot of the other regions as well? Take the LPL Spring Season for example, did anyone really think Wayi Spider China was a decent team? GPL as a competition does suffer from stagnation more than the other competitions from other regions due to their format, but who's to say that there aren't good up-and-coming teams in the region? I don't think lack of competion explains everything. Teams in the GPL weren't the only contacts TPA had, if anything, there was a definate rise in the number of professional Taiwanese teams after TPA's good fortunes at the international level. TPA probably played a major role in the growth of the professional LoL scene in Taiwan, it puzzles me somewhat that their form suffered so much despite there being a stronger case for the "lack of infrastructure and competition" argument during season 2. Of course, things were much worse in the other regions as well back then, but I still feel that the "lack of competition" doesn't explain everything. 2) Singapore Sentinels consistently lost to Chinese, Korean, and North American teams at international tournaments during season 2. I really didn't think much of them at all, however, a Korean guy who watched GPL frequently this year told me that they were pretty decent, suggesting perhaps around the level of a lower to mid-tier professional team in Korea and China. I personally thought otherwise, but it's really hard to argue against someone who watched more than you. Everything you say are based on a smaller pool of games, and ends up being speculations. Is it possible that they improved vastly in recent weeks? Not really, take like NA, there's 1 team at the bottom, and the rest are middle of the pack. Wayi is also the outlier in stinking things up. Same for EU. Garena has more terrible teams. Also Garena's worst is worse than them guaranteed. Nah SS were pretty "decent". They beat Curse(4th) and gave TSM(1st) a fight. I haven't watched them recently, but low tier Chinese team sounded about right. I also think they are chokers(play worse in tournies/LAN), but I will let nyx comment on that. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 30 2013 21:15 cascades wrote: Not really, take like NA, there's 1 team at the bottom, and the rest are middle of the pack. Wayi is also the outlier in stinking things up. Same for EU. Garena has more terrible teams. Also Garena's worst is worse than them guaranteed. Nah SS were pretty "decent". They beat Curse(4th) and gave TSM(1st) a fight. I haven't watched them recently, but low tier Chinese team sounded about right. I also think they are chokers(play worse in tournies/LAN), but I will let nyx comment on that. South East Asia/Taiwan isn't limited to GPL though, and to dismiss the region as a whole when GPL isn't necessarily an accurate portrayal of the overall strength of the region, not to mention has no direct influence over which teams get to represent the region in the Season 3 World Championship as far as I'm aware of, may be a little brash considering many feel like championing that as the main reason for TPA's downfall. I just feel like GPL as a competition improved compared to last year with the inclusion of AHQ e-Sports Club, and there were a bunch of Taiwanese professional teams that sprang up although they competed in different leagues from Azubu TPA. Although Azubu TPA does not compete with them directly, surely practice against these teams must be more accessible (althought I'm making huge assumptions here)? Take Gamania for example, or Wayi Spider Taiwan. How good are these teams? Gamania managed to defeat WE Academy, and went 3-5 overall versus Xenics Storm. If season 3 birthed numerous non-GPL Taiwanese teams that may be similar in strength to some of the lower-tier Korean and Chinese professional teams, how does that help explain why Azubu Taipei Assassins' fall from grace? The argument just does not seem to cover all grounds, that's all. | ||
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Vanka
China1336 Posts
EDIT: I'm going to make the completely and utterly speculative case that if TPA doesn't scrim korean teams anymore, that is due to the huge development of the korean scene, that they don't need to go outside korea for scrim partners anymore, and the rise of importance of the champions and NLB and the time commitments necessary for those leagues. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
On June 30 2013 22:03 Letmelose wrote: South East Asia/Taiwan isn't limited to GPL though, and to dismiss the region as a whole when GPL isn't necessarily an accurate portrayal of the overall strength of the region, not to mention has no direct influence over which teams get to represent the region in the Season 3 World Championship as far as I'm aware of, may be a little brash considering many feel like championing that as the main reason for TPA's downfall. I just feel like GPL as a competition improved compared to last year with the inclusion of AHQ e-Sports Club, and there were a bunch of Taiwanese professional teams that sprang up although they competed in different leagues from Azubu TPA. Although Azubu TPA does not compete with them directly, surely practice against these teams must be more accessible (althought I'm making huge assumptions here)? Take Gamania for example, or Wayi Spider Taiwan. How good are these teams? Gamania managed to defeat WE Academy, and went 3-5 overall versus Xenics Storm. If season 3 birthed numerous non-GPL Taiwanese teams that may be similar in strength to some of the lower-tier Korean and Chinese professional teams, how does that help explain why Azubu Taipei Assassins' fall from grace? The argument just does not seem to cover all grounds, that's all. I am not familiar enough with TPA's fall from grace. I would say it has to do with meta changes, Toyz being a shotcaller, and new replacements not being up to scratch AND ruining synergy (aka downgrade). Dinter and Sarsky are both terrible. That's speculation on my part though, so what I have done in my posts is to help you understand GPL more. As for TeSL I shall refrain from commenting on that except TPS should have had been in GPL definitely, and maybe more TW teams. This is due to GPL's wonky structure though, so it may be that the best teams in the SEA region may not get to represent at world's. This is speculation again. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9112 Posts
On June 30 2013 19:24 TheYango wrote: People honestly overestimated how far "ahead" TPA was after Worlds. The version of the game played at Worlds just happened to be the absolutely perfect version for TPA's 3-lane splitpush style. They actually haven't shown much flexibility playing anything but that style at all, it's just that in a version that's good for it, their understanding of how to play it was better than anyone else's. Now that everyone's sad because they broke up I'm gonna get shit for this but TPA was not the best team in world even then, they were just the hardest to scout. GPL was such a no-contest back then that TPA could win with any picks, without breaking a sweat and without revealing anything. If their opponents from S2WC knew that Toyz can only play 3 champions at top level, like they knew it at IPL5, I very much doubt that TPA would have won. | ||
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