EPTthe chances of your judgement being impaired on yours is very high when your judgement is demonstrably faulty
its not like diamond is super high elo any more, its probably what 1800+ or something
[Patch 3.08: Aatrox Patch] General Discussion - Page 160
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
the chances of your judgement being impaired on yours is very high when your judgement is demonstrably faulty its not like diamond is super high elo any more, its probably what 1800+ or something | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 22 2013 22:54 Scip wrote: I explained why I think TROLLS itself is a terrible strategy for generating strategies. There are 57 pages of Trolls thread I haven't read, perhaps you would like to handpick some strategies from the thread for me to criticize? From page 156 of TL GD: + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2013 15:01 Ketara wrote: A TROLLS Strategy: Level 1 buff donations When the new jungle changes came out to change all spawn timers to 1:55, most people were concerned with whether or not the Jungler would still hit level 3 from two buff camps. Can anybody leech EXP? Can bot lane still do golems? Is the jungler affected positively or negatively by this? However, we have found that this is not the correct question we should be asking. The correct question is "Who are we going to give the other buff to?" Because junglers are not doing a camp at 1:40, there is effectively one extra jungle camp that they can do in their first clear. While a jungler can go Buff -> Buff and be level 3 at 3 minutes, they can also go Buff -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Golems for level 3 at about 3:30, depending a little bit on how fast the jungler clears. This frees up a laner to take the other buff, and go into lane at level 2 with a blue or red buff. The jungler does buff 1 with a single player and smites it, while the other 3 players do buff 2. The junglers smite will be up right around on time for double golems, possibly a little late if they're a fast clearer but then they don't much care anyway. Finally, the 3 people doing buff 2 leave the small lizards for the jungler to clear, so that the buffs do not spawn at the same time and you can secure one after the other later in the game. Allowing a laner to come into lane at level 2 with blue or red buff creates certain matchups that are extremely one sided. We have tested this in 12 games so far, most as premades vs. other unsuspecting premades in draft normals. In 11 of 12 games the outcome was the buff donated lane absolutely dominating, often times having a 2-3 level lead and doubling or tripling the CS of their opponent. We tended to prefer mid lane for the buff donation, since applying pressure in mid applies the most global pressure, and it is a little easier to coordinate the mid laner taking a buff for either side. However, this strategy is versatile and can be applied to any lane. So far we've tried the following: Giving either blue or red to Kayle, to come into lane with Q and E. Both blue and red resulted in the lane won almost immediately. Giving blue to Cassiopeia. This was probably the most successful, we saw Cassiopeia killing the enemy mid before the second minion wave had spawned. Giving red to a mid lane Quinn. Also quite effective, it allowed Quinn to get level 6 very quickly while shutting the enemy mid down and then roam. Giving red to a mid lane Wukong. This actually ended with a fight in the river and Wukong coming out with 4 kills, largely due to being level 2 in a level 1 fight. Giving red to Caitlyn in both bot and mid lane, to come into lane with Q, E and red buff. This dramatically increased Caitlyn's bullying potential, when we tried it in bot lane she got a doublekill as soon as she came into lane. Giving red to a Tristana and then lane swapping her to 2v1 the enemy top lane. Also very effective. For junglers, we focused on champions who did not necessarily need both buffs to get things done. Zac, Karthus, Shen and Shaco were used. In the Shaco games we focused on also doing an early jungle invade, while the others would mostly just farm and play normally. Karthus was possibly the most effective. Karthus can give red to a mid laner, take all the blue buffs, and just go Wolves->Wraiths->Golems->Wolves->Wraiths->Golems until level 6. With this pattern Karthus hits level 6 with the 7 minute blue buff and can then begin to press R. There are a lot more junglers that we'd like to try with this, as well as a lot more laners with scary level 2's. What we like most about this strategy, aside from the fact that it has been incredibly successful in all but one test game (where we admittedly derped), is that it is incredibly versatile. There are all sorts of champions with scary level 2 kill potential, and all sorts of junglers that do not absolutely have to have both buffs, or absolutely have to gank at 3 minutes. Given the right buff transfer to the right person, you are delaying the jungler 30 seconds, but guaranteeing one of your lanes wins, and wins hard. We think this is by far the best strategy we've ever come up with in TROLLS, and think you guys should totally try it out for yourselves. Good job proving my point that it was ignored while everybody debated something that had nothing to do with actual game discussion though. I appreciate it. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on why it was a bad strategy, because we discussed it for literally hours trying to figure out ways to counter it, and basically the only thing we could think up is a level 1 invade, which high level teams already do all the time with little success. And since I know it's important to you, we did the 12 test games with 5 players that were mostly high gold / low plat, and were arranged against exclusively 5 man premades who were mostly high gold / low plat. | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/profile.php?user=Shellshock1122 holy shit registered around the same time as me but 41k posts and I probably already post too much/spend too much time on TL per day. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11933 Posts
However, i agree that the concept of donating a buff at level 1 might indeed be a very good idea and should probably explored further. A weakness i with my limited knowledge can see are those level 1 invades if the enemy somehow figures out what you are doing. The side doing a buff without smite should be especially vulnerable, and they should be able to invade any buff 4v2/3 without losing anything really valuable. Another thing to watch out for could be lvl 3 fights top, where the enemy jungler is now earlier and up a buff. Also, cool blue for cool people, yes please. Makes it way easier for me to find out who to listen to, gives them the knowledge that they are being valued, and probably also makes people who got blue giving their opinion in a coherent way as to show how cool blue people are. Way better solution then any sort of segregation. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
I adressed what problems this create when done by a lower level player but it's not something that can be fixed by doing a weird strategy only every 2nd game working on a post | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Monte (amongst others) says "Let's man T.R.O.L.L.S. on a voluntariy basis and see what comes out of it" and even though attendance lowered over time and they've got to shake people a bit to get them on, at least it's been working for awhile and there have been stuff tested. Obviously, you can have reserves—level-disparity in 5-man premades in draft normals, lack of schedule for a 5s ranked team, "cheese" nature of a lot of the tests, "fun factor" reducing the tryhardiness and thus the competitive appeal of some ideas. But then I see 2 points: - if high-level people don't help with what's good or not how do you expect things to get stirred up? That's like saying it's not worth doing because you won't get things right on the first try. Also because people can look at an idea and say why it's promising or not doesn't mean that they're able to think it up in the first place. "Only high-level matters" but then high-level guys don't want to participate. Let's change that to "only highest-available level matters" then? >.> - when it comes down to it TL is a community too. A competitive hub, sure, but we're not all spreadsheets and numbers and stuff. When people participating in T.R.O.L.L.S. discuss ideas, they train their critical thinking, they share knowledge, learn from each other, they improve too. Sure as a Challenger you probably won't learn much from a Silver scrub, but people on the whole improve. And they have fun together, and they're a community. I still haven't updated my signature, its link points to an obsolete thread about a tentative SC2 TvT build/strategy, which certainly wasn't competitively viable (or maybe one game in a Bo5), but it sprung discussion and analysis, and trying it was fun. You could also learn/think about timings and stuff when throwing that new idea around and see what counters it/what its weaknesses are and how to potentially patch them. We already have our "serious discussion thread", it's T.R.O.L.L.S.. If you don't like the lack of seriousness in the execution, nothing stops you from trying to get a ranked team of Diamond I players and go test the research on the ladder, but the thread is there, and it's pretty easy and lazy to say "there's no serious strategy talks" because one doesn't want to post in it and amp its seriousness up. See, I asked Scip to post about his Vi experience in the thread. He's way better than me, but if I hadn't created the thread, or he had said "oh no it's a scrub's thread I don't wanna take part in it" then we wouldn't have his input about her. I think it's a bit silly to talk about level requirements and how you can't understand the game at a level higher than yours when we don't even have the general willingness to have those discussions in the first place. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On June 22 2013 23:15 AsnSensation wrote: offtopic but while browsing through TL+ announcement thread i found this guy http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/profile.php?user=Shellshock1122 holy shit registered around the same time as me but 41k posts and I probably already post too much/spend too much time on TL per day. people who spam live report threads like that always give me a laugh | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 22 2013 23:43 Slayer91 wrote: should be interesting to note m5 used to try that buff donation tactic before and seemed to abandon Since this most recent patch? | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
I criticized the way trolls "improves" people a little bit, but my main point was unusability of their data. We could discuss just how it affects player development but that's tangential. Trolls could function as a serious discussion thread if it wasnt linked to a weekly series of 1400 elo normal draft games on NA server. I would have posted that specific Vi post in GD thread, or in a Vi thread without a very basic and outdated guide (I remember the moment of me posting it quite well), but I agree that having already made champion threads (guides no necessary) does help fuel discussion. Not sure what your point is though, is it an argument against diamond only forum? I am working on the criticism of double buffs lvl1 right now | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Quick, I need Quinn tips. Playing some ranked, our swaps derped up and now I have to ADC. | ||
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Spaiku
Spain1114 Posts
On June 23 2013 00:00 ticklishmusic wrote: Quick, I need Quinn tips. Playing some ranked, our swaps derped up and now I have to ADC. Big AD scaling so BT first is good, don' really need much attack speed so you can follow with LW or IE Max R>E>Q>W and trade in lane with E/auto/Q/auto Don't bird form during a team fight, use it to clean up | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
no, but the recent patch changes little you lose a lot of jungle momentum and its a question of whether you can make it worth it with a buff on a laner, most decent players wont be stupid enough to die at level 1 when they see a strat like that its something that would need a lot of testing so there isnt much to discuss the only time its going to be really good if you get to pull off a buff donation and a buff steal so the jungler gets double buffs as well | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On June 22 2013 23:36 arb wrote: people who spam live report threads like that always give me a laugh I post a lot in LR threads, but certainly not to that level >_> | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 23 2013 00:06 Slayer91 wrote: no, but the recent patch changes little you lose a lot of jungle momentum and its a question of whether you can make it worth it with a buff on a laner, most decent players wont be stupid enough to die at level 1 when they see a strat like that its something that would need a lot of testing so there isnt much to discuss the only time its going to be really good if you get to pull off a buff donation and a buff steal so the jungler gets double buffs as well The recent patch changes a lot. Before the patch the jungler couldn't hit level 3 before 4 minutes without doing Buff->Buff. To hit level 3 they'd have to go say Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Wolves->Golems. This is adding a good 20-30 seconds of just walking time. Furthermore, before the patch the laner couldn't hit level 2 from just doing the buff. They'd come into lane with a buff but a few CS down, and while they would hit level 2 first, it would give the enemy team some time to react to the strategy. With the change, the laner hits level 2 on the buff without clearing the small minions at all, and comes into lane missing maybe 2 CS, but already being a level ahead. They ignore creeps and immediately attack the opposing laner as soon as they get into lane, increasing their advantage. The result is that they are consistently 1 level ahead for the entire laning phase, and given the right matchup can push that advantage. Meanwhile the jungler is only delayed by 30 seconds instead of a full minute. There are a lot of junglers who really need to have both buffs to make their first gank / early clears effective, and a lot of them are very popular right now I'll agree. But there are a lot of junglers who really don't require both buffs as well. Lee Sin is a good example. He is popular, he can use blue buff, but he doesn't NEED it to clear or gank. I think you are underestimating how much the recent patch improves this as a strategy. | ||
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