EPT[Patch 3.08: Aatrox Patch] General Discussion - Page 161
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Secondly, I assume we are talking about 1v1/2v2 as buff donation is something pretty well tried and somewhat understood in a laneswap. Thirdly, I will not comment on the version with invade, as that is tried and good and we did it with my team quite often and is nothing new (and is completely unrelated to this patch). With no help, Elise without red buff hits lvl 3 at 3:10, lvl 4 at 4:15 With no help, Elise with red buff hits lvl 3 at 2:42, lvl4 at 3:30 Also note that help helps Elise more when she does get red, because she specifically has a lot of burst and being able to save smite for big camp helps her more than saving it for a small camp. Not very significant either way, just saying. So Elise with 2 buffs is just about 0.75levels ahead, gold advantage is negligable. I will for my laziness assume that the difference between red but no Blue and Both buffs Elise is identical, as I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be. Let's assume the laner who gets the buff loses 2 melee creeps, which is quite reasonable (about 7:08 finish or a bit later). That gives 176 xp advantage to the person who gets the buff (156xp if you leave the small guys behind). Alright, so there are several problems with this and why the lane dominance it gives isn't so massive. Firstly, because the enemy jungler is basically a level ahead, not only are you in danger of getting ganked, so are the other lanes to a considerable degree (a lot of junglers don't gank often for fear of countergank, namely Nautilus and Evelynn, though depending on who the enemy jungler is there are many more). It is difficult to quantify just how much other lanes suffer until you can roam, but the word I would use to describe that is "somewhat". Secondly, as a rule, being aggresive pushes the lane. One of the reasons why pushing is so scary in sidelanes is diving. Diving is way less scary if the enemy jungler is a level behind. Thirdly, there is a very simple way to stop you from zoning, and that's getting a jungler to the lane that's being zoned and pushing it to tower 1v2. It weakens the solo laner a bit and strenghtens jungler a bit, but it's not a big deal either way. Depending on which lane you give the buff to, different problems will arise. In middle lane you will find it quite difficult to push your advantage, as the lane is short, and so is room for aggression, zoning is virtually impossible. You will gain creep advantage, but not likely to gain a large level advantage. In a sidelane, you have more room for aggression and zoning, but those 2 are mitigated with the factors mentioned above. Also, it opens up the other side of your jungle for complete counterjungling, as being 1 level ahead and having an extra buff is absolutely massive for this kind of fights. I'd dare saying that you will lose more by getting your jungle repeatedly raped than by having an extra level and a buff for minutes 2-5 in a lane. For those reasons mentioned above, the tactic of giving a laner a buff at lvl2 without laneswap and without invade doesn't seem like a very good idea grand majority of the time. As Teutonica said, for definite judgment some reliable testing would be helpful, but I would definitely not be hopeful for this strategy at all. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On June 23 2013 00:20 Ketara wrote: The recent patch changes a lot. Before the patch the jungler couldn't hit level 3 before 4 minutes without doing Buff->Buff. To hit level 3 they'd have to go say Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Wolves->Golems. This is adding a good 20-30 seconds of just walking time. Furthermore, before the patch the laner couldn't hit level 2 from just doing the buff. They'd come into lane with a buff but a few CS down, and while they would hit level 2 first, it would give the enemy team some time to react to the strategy. With the change, the laner hits level 2 on the buff without clearing the small minions at all, and comes into lane missing maybe 2 CS, but already being a level ahead. They ignore creeps and immediately attack the opposing laner as soon as they get into lane, increasing their advantage. The result is that they are consistently 1 level ahead for the entire laning phase, and given the right matchup can push that advantage. Meanwhile the jungler is only delayed by 30 seconds instead of a full minute. There are a lot of junglers who really need to have both buffs to make their first gank / early clears effective, and a lot of them are very popular right now I'll agree. But there are a lot of junglers who really don't require both buffs as well. Lee Sin is a good example. He is popular, he can use blue buff, but he doesn't NEED it to clear or gank. I think you are underestimating how much the recent patch improves this as a strategy. wolves-->blue-->wraiths-->wolves was level 3 i think I used to do this to hit level 3 without red, if not definitely a golem camp after is enough. having to clear small creeps to get lvl 2 isnt a big deal either, if they try to steal one of your buffs you can easily steal one of theirs back oh, you thought you had to do both wolves and blue to hit 3? The reason you did wolves was because there was nothing else to do, blue buff always has and always will give level 2 by itself (assuming you clear it) | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 23 2013 00:43 Scip wrote: Firstly, I don't think the donate buff to a laner is a good idea with a rush6 jungler for obvious reasons. So for simplicity I will assume you play a with Elise, who due to her unreliance on lvl6 that gets delayed by this and no need for either blue or red seems like an ideal example. Secondly, I assume we are talking about 1v1/2v2 as buff donation is something pretty well tried and somewhat understood in a laneswap. Thirdly, I will not comment on the version with invade, as that is tried and good and we did it with my team quite often and is nothing new (and is completely unrelated to this patch). With no help, Elise without red buff hits lvl 3 at 3:10, lvl 4 at 4:15 With no help, Elise with red buff hits lvl 3 at 2:42, lvl4 at 3:30 Also note that help helps Elise more when she does get red, because she specifically has a lot of burst and being able to save smite for big camp helps her more than saving it for a small camp. Not very significant either way, just saying. So Elise with 2 buffs is just about 0.75levels ahead, gold advantage is negligable. I will for my laziness assume that the difference between red but no Blue and Both buffs Elise is identical, as I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be. Let's assume the laner who gets the buff loses 2 melee creeps, which is quite reasonable (about 7:08 finish or a bit later). That gives 176 xp advantage to the person who gets the buff (156xp if you leave the small guys behind). Alright, so there are several problems with this and why the lane dominance it gives isn't so massive. Firstly, because the enemy jungler is basically a level ahead, not only are you in danger of getting ganked, so are the other lanes to a considerable degree (a lot of junglers don't gank often for fear of countergank, namely Nautilus and Evelynn, though depending on who the enemy jungler is there are many more). It is difficult to quantify just how much other lanes suffer until you can roam, but the word I would use to describe that is "somewhat". Secondly, as a rule, being aggresive pushes the lane. One of the reasons why pushing is so scary in sidelanes is diving. Diving is way less scary if the enemy jungler is a level behind. Thirdly, there is a very simple way to stop you from zoning, and that's getting a jungler to the lane that's being zoned and pushing it to tower 1v2. It weakens the solo laner a bit and strenghtens jungler a bit, but it's not a big deal either way. Depending on which lane you give the buff to, different problems will arise. In middle lane you will find it quite difficult to push your advantage, as the lane is short, and so is room for aggression, zoning is virtually impossible. You will gain creep advantage, but not likely to gain a large level advantage. In a sidelane, you have more room for aggression and zoning, but those 2 are mitigated with the factors mentioned above. Also, it opens up the other side of your jungle for complete counterjungling, as being 1 level ahead and having an extra buff is absolutely massive for this kind of fights. I'd dare saying that you will lose more by getting your jungle repeatedly raped than by having an extra level and a buff for minutes 2-5 in a lane. For those reasons mentioned above, the tactic of giving a laner a buff at lvl2 without laneswap and without invade doesn't seem like a very good idea grand majority of the time. As Teutonica said, for definite judgment some reliable testing would be helpful, but I would definitely not be hopeful for this strategy at all. I think a lot of your arguments are predicated on the idea of the opposing jungler being in two places at once. I agree that the kill potential in mid is going to be overexaggerated in our tests. In most of our games our mid lane Kayle or Wukong or Cassiopeia came into lane and simply immediately killed the enemy laner. However, vs. a better player that is not likely to happen. What is more likely to happen is you'll use the advantage to deny farm. I think you're underestimating the zoning potential a little bit though. There are mid laners where having an instant level 2 is nice, but is not a huge game changer. There are other mid lane matchups where having an instant level 2 is just completely terrifying. I'm sure you can think up a matchup where if you start the game a level behind the enemy player can completely keep you from CSing. So lets say you do the strategy, and you're able to zone the enemy mid at least partially, deny CS and if you're lucky deny some EXP. That's still a net benefit to the lane, you are starting with an advantage and using that to increase your advantage. Meanwhile, what does the enemy jungler do? You listed a number of possible counter strategies. A: They can go to mid and pressure mid to stop that advantage. Certainly effective, but they could do this before, and if they do then the now 1v2 laner is still in a better position to farm than they would be otherwise. B: They can go to take their buff and gank. Yes their gank is a little bit scarier and comes 20 or so seconds faster. The thing here I think is that depending on what junglers you're talking about, the how much faster and how much scarier on the gank is relative. There are junglers who really benefit from the Buff->Buff clear, and who really benefit from ganking with two buffs. However, there are other junglers who do not benefit so much. Need to look at more than just Elise. C: They can go to counterjungle. We had this happen to us, and it was pretty much always completely ineffective. The reason why is because of the timing of when the camps die. Because both buffs are dead at level 1, there is no buff camp for the counterjungler to steal. So while jungler A is doing wolves, jungler B can go and counterjungle wraiths. But he can't steal a buff. Hopefully you ward for this and see it coming, and send your jungler to counter the enemy red buff in this situation. When we did this with Karthus, Karthus was literally at the camp when it spawned and killing it for every single camp. It is hard to counterjungle that. We had two games where a Nunu tried to, and in the first he was completely ineffective, and in the second he was repeatedly killed by Wukong who was way ahead in mid and simply roamed down and killed him every time we saw him in our jungle. The key thing here is that the enemy jungler can only pick one of these options. If he camps mid to stop the pressure of the early buff advantage, he's not pressuring side lanes, while your jungler is free to go and gank OR go to mid and make it a 2v2. If he counterjungles he's running a risk, because his mid lane is being pressured and is likely in a worse situation to help him than the enemy mid with a red buff is to roam. If he decides to just do a standard Buff->Buff->Gank clear, he needs that extra 20 seconds he gets on the gank to outweigh the advantage the buff swap gave in mid. Whether or not that happens is obviously going to depend on the game, I think it's fairly hard to debate. Finally, I think the idea that the jungler will always be a level ahead is a little disingenuous, as is them hitting level 4 faster. After they hit level 3 they are going to attempt to go do some sort of gank or countergank, and by the time they are done with that all of the camps are going to have respawned anyway, so I think in a real game the time hitting level 4 is going to be identical. | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On June 23 2013 00:44 obesechicken13 wrote: RIP lol replay... it's not working on win 8 the obvious solution here is to not use win 8 and yea not using win8 is the solution to many things in life | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
On June 23 2013 00:44 obesechicken13 wrote: RIP lol replay... it's not working on win 8 If I could only have one and not the other I'd go with LOLReplay | ||
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Spaiku
Spain1114 Posts
Seems like a pretty basic feature | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
On June 23 2013 00:20 Ketara wrote: The recent patch changes a lot. Before the patch the jungler couldn't hit level 3 before 4 minutes without doing Buff->Buff. To hit level 3 they'd have to go say Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Wolves->Golems. This is adding a good 20-30 seconds of just walking time. This isn't totally true. You could hit 3 last patch by doing Wolves -> Blue -> Red if nobody stole any XP in the process. Since Wolves spawned at 1:40, this took about the same time as just doing the two buffs takes now. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
The option A is not a good idea in mid, as I said you can't really zone middle that much to begin with, so there is really no need for that. Only a good idea to spend any time in middle lane in this case is if enemy middle laner has 1 or no wards and has to use his escape skill to do any significant damage (like Kha Zix). Dont exactly know where you get the 20 seconds from, from my tests it is more like 30-45 seconds faster gank for person who took both buffs. Yes, sometimes you can't gank, but that is waaay more often for someone who took only 1 buff. Counterjungling is not about stealing small camps, it's about fighting the enemy jungler inside his jungle and either killing him or forcing him to base, then stealing small camps. As I said though, counterjungling is not likely to be a good idea if it's the enemy middle laner who got the buff for obvious reaosns. You would get lvl3 for half of wolves+blue+red in the previous patch. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It's hard to test that sort of thing when you don't have people helping you do the camps, really. In our games we found that the farthest behind it ever put a jungler was 30 seconds. But it's going to be different for different junglers, and for some junglers is probably not a good strategy. If you feel like your pressure mid and counterjungle strategies aren't necessarily good ideas, then your basic argument is that the extra pressure the jungler is able to exert outweighs the extra pressure the mid laner with the buff is able to exert. I think depending on the team compositions and depending on the game that this is an entirely debatable standpoint. Your most recent post pretty much sounds like you are agreeing with us that it's potentially viable at higher levels? | ||
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JALbert
United States484 Posts
On June 22 2013 17:41 Navi wrote: i think having a bunch of high elo ppl talk exclusively with each other is such a epeen fest. its solo queue except with TLers so prob will be more nerdy-smart and passive aggressive than straight trolly. if u want to do that just solo queue lel btw how does elo decay work with new system? only true elo decay and LP doesn't? Think it's quite the opposite. After not playing ranked for a while I dropped a league or two but was getting matched with people 3 or 4 higher. MMR doesn't decay as hard as your league standing I think. Small sample though. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 22 2013 22:48 Scip wrote: well, in SC2 strategy forum where they have blue posts they have a rule that goes something like this: if you disagree with blue poster, you BETTER fkin know what you're talking about, and choose your words carefully. That stopped platinums from talking back to pros quite quickly lol. Again, this was only an issue in SC2 because of the high post volume making this impossible to moderate. BW never neeeded this because the posting volume/number of users was small enough that talking stupid shit back to someone who knew what they were talking about was directly mod-actionable. Again, I think this is a better solution than putting Diamond+ players on a pedestal. Our posting volume/user base is small compared to SC2 so operating the way BW strat did under Chill is more feasible and better than the way SC2 strat did. SC2 strat only had to do that because there was too many users for the mods to know who was good and too much posting volume for them to moderate everything. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35144 Posts
On June 23 2013 00:44 obesechicken13 wrote: RIP lol replay... it's not working on win 8 It's been working for me. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
On June 23 2013 02:26 TheYango wrote: Again, this was only an issue in SC2 because of the high post volume making this impossible to moderate. BW never neeeded this because the posting volume/number of users was small enough that talking stupid shit back to someone who knew what they were talking about was directly mod-actionable. Again, I think this is a better solution than putting Diamond+ players on a pedestal. Our posting volume/user base is small compared to SC2 so operating the way BW strat did under Chill is more feasible and better than the way SC2 strat did. SC2 strat only had to do that because there was too many users for the mods to know who was good and too much posting volume for them to moderate everything. In addition, alot of diamond + players knowledge of the game is fairly narrow, and probably surrounding whichever lanes/champions they play the most. Just because they are diamond doesnt mean they know everything about everything, just that they know alot about a few things. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 23 2013 03:31 dae wrote: In addition, alot of diamond + players knowledge of the game is fairly narrow, and probably surrounding whichever lanes/champions they play the most. Just because they are diamond doesnt mean they know everything about everything, just that they know alot about a few things. Don't hate on diamonds. Pros still run Ori/malph/ez comps | ||
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