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On May 09 2013 09:21 obesechicken13 wrote:There was a hybrid discussion earlier. Wanted to add my opinions even though the discussion is past. I think hybrids scales poorly so they have to be strong early. Having to scale off of more stats that don't work well together means you have to pay more too. That means they have to in general do really well early on and then drop off later. If Kayle scales well into late game as a hybrid, it's because she's ranged or has a lot of potential AoE on her E. Late game everything dies fast in 5v5 teamfights and the best way to avoid the damage is to be full tank or be ranged. And AoE is strong. Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 07:12 thenexusp wrote:On May 09 2013 07:01 Simberto wrote:On May 09 2013 06:41 wei2coolman wrote:On May 09 2013 06:35 upperbound wrote:On May 09 2013 06:24 wei2coolman wrote:
Isn't that around 300 AD on urgot?
So 250% crit, is 750? Not too far off? Yeah but the target should still have at least 35-40 armor left even worst case. Also, this was in ARAM, just to cut off further doubts about circumstances. Could be armor reduction due to other champions on your team? Lvl 18 Urgot (118) With IE (70), Black Cleaver (50), Manamune (20+2% mana, lets say ~50 total), Pickaxe (25) and Longsword (10) Would be a total of ~323 AD without runes or masteries. Masteries grant 15 AD, 6% dmg against targets below 50%, 2% total damage, 5% crit damage. 8% Armorpen, 5 Armorpen. Runes also provide AD or Armorpen. There might also be critdamage here. 800 crit doesn't seem too far off depending on enemy armor. And apparently since it happened it was probably possible. Let's do the math through As above, 323 AD from base+items 15 AD from masteries 0.95*9+2.25*3 from runes 8% additional damage from masteries 5% crit damage Total pre-mitigation damage is (323+15+9*0.95+3*2.25)*2.55*1.08 = 973 The armor needed to mitgate 973 to 800 (post-penetration) is (100-100*800/973)*973/800 = 21.7With 5 | 8% natural arpen from masteries, the pre-penetration value is (21.7+5) / 0.92 = 29.0 So now the question is can you shred 100 armor to 29.0. With BC, Urgot E, and some other friendly effects, it is definitely doable. nid+renekton will do this easily, as will several other combinations of armor shred effects. With crit damage runes he could do 800. Is it possible the manamune passive damage got added to the crit number when it popped up on screen?
Nah it's possible without I forgot that Urgot E shreds before.
I just saw that number in game, checked the target's armor (it was like 104 or something) and was surprised by da damages.
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On May 09 2013 07:28 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 07:20 Mondeezy wrote:
Question for any high level AD mains:
When you're playing solo queue, are you supposed to rely on support to be the play maker and you just farm/poke unless you see an opportunity? I feel like mechanically my AD skills are pretty decent but my decision making and matchup knowledge is lacking. It depends a lot on both how your laning is working out for you, and how the other side is doing. There are some AD Carries you can very much make your own plays. For example, with Cait you can striaght up pure mechanics last hit and harass the other side down, grinding them down. Cut of movement with traps, punish them constantly with autos and Piltover Peacemaker. Very support independent. Other times you may feel like you can't do those things yourself because it would put you in too much danger and your support isn't giving you any lane presence. In which case, just farm it out and let your superior mechanics win teamfights. Maybe you feel like you have a strong mid game and if you're in a duo you can make mid-game plays. So take a tower fast and start forcing 5-man LoL. In other words, assess the situation and go with the decision that has the highest consistent payoff for you. But if you're like 1k elo above everyone you play you can straight up 1v2 the lane all by yourself. So there's that.
Usually I play Vayne. Other than that it's Ez, Cait, or Trist.
I tend to find myself either snowballing or falling behind a lot. I'm not sure if I go in too much, or if I overextend, or what. I just feel like my laning phase is really weak but once it gets to teamfights my mechanics kick in and I play a lot more fluidly. I mean, it's obviously me, because Wildturtle and Robertlee can grind up to challenger in <100 games. I guess I should just play more passively and try to last until teamfights, but that kind of leaves me vulnerable to another lane snowballing.
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On May 09 2013 07:09 NeoIllusions wrote:
I mean just take a look at him back in his Curse days. lololol
When Double sat down and actually thought about what kind of personality he wanted to be known for, he didn't want to go the route of the Koreans (quite and humble) which is who he really is.
This flamboyant front is that, just a front. If you want to anti-CLG, go right ahead. But calling out Double on his "trashtalk" is just ignorance.
ty
i'm really dubious to the accuracy in this
not that i don't like double, i'm a huge fan
but i don't think this is true
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For those of you not watching, Loci is playing Karma right now.
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AP yi has to be the most antifun thing i've ever played against in any game ever. I'd rather get dental work done than play against ap yi, any day of the week. So fucking annoying.
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On May 09 2013 11:31 IMoperator wrote:
AP yi has to be the most antifun thing i've ever played against in any game ever. I'd rather get dental work done than play against ap yi, any day of the week. So fucking annoying.
Don't use buzzwords like antifun.
He is annoying. You could argue that makes beating him more satisfying. This is the case with any really hard boss like in streefighter2. He simply requires you pay attention to a few details you wouldn't normally, like whether or not your teamates are at Yi's damage threshold. Someways to reduce Yi's damage threshold is to build a bulwark or solari-locket.
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On May 09 2013 11:17 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 07:09 NeoIllusions wrote:
I mean just take a look at him back in his Curse days. lololol
When Double sat down and actually thought about what kind of personality he wanted to be known for, he didn't want to go the route of the Koreans (quite and humble) which is who he really is.
This flamboyant front is that, just a front. If you want to anti-CLG, go right ahead. But calling out Double on his "trashtalk" is just ignorance.
ty i'm really dubious to the accuracy in this not that i don't like double, i'm a huge fan but i don't think this is true
I think there's some truth in that. Do you remember what he was like back in the days of Epik Gaming? Bowl cut DL facechecking everything was pretty quiet and humble.
Really wasn't until he got onto CLG with a big brand when DL got all trashtalky and shit.
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On May 09 2013 11:43 RoieTRS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 11:31 IMoperator wrote:
AP yi has to be the most antifun thing i've ever played against in any game ever. I'd rather get dental work done than play against ap yi, any day of the week. So fucking annoying. Don't use buzzwords like antifun. He is annoying. You could argue that makes beating him more satisfying. This is the case with any really hard boss like in streefighter2. He simply requires you pay attention to a few details you wouldn't normally, like whether or not your teamates are at Yi's damage threshold. Someways to reduce Yi's damage threshold is to build a bulwark or solari-locket.
I'm mostly talking about in lane. His Q makes him untargettable, does massive damage, and is undodgeable. Then you have his heal which means you can't harass him back at all.
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AP Yi in lane is pretty much a poster child of anti-fun.
You can't stop or dodge his damage, it's random as fuck, and you can't counter harass because he heals it. The only way to kill him is to do it all at once which a lot of champions simply cannot do.
It's dumb. Often the best way to lane against AP Yi is to completely ignore him, only kill minions, and do stuff in other lanes. And it's not because AP Yi is this scary motherfucker who's going to combo you either. It's just because actually fighting Yi doesn't accomplish anything.
There's absolutely no reason why it's any different than mass potion openings or AP Tryndamere, which also got the anti-fun axe.
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On May 09 2013 11:59 Ketara wrote:
AP Yi in lane is pretty much a poster child of anti-fun.
You can't stop or dodge his damage, it's random as fuck, and you can't counter harass because he heals it. The only way to kill him is to do it all at once which a lot of champions simply cannot do.
It's dumb. Often the best way to lane against AP Yi is to completely ignore him, only kill minions, and do stuff in other lanes. And it's not because AP Yi is this scary motherfucker who's going to combo you either. It's just because actually fighting Yi doesn't accomplish anything.
Riot have done an amazing job toning down the amount of needless sustain in the game. It's just not been noticed so much since everyone was starting all consumable in season 3.
I don't have a massive problem with Yi sustain, since he has one of his abilities completely devoted to it, hence he'll probably do less than you in straight up fights.
Contrast that to champions that previously got massive sustain with abilities such as Irelia's W and Vlad's Q. They get their sustain for free, which is way more problematic.
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If you're playing in lane against Yi with a champion who doesn't have a ranged hard CC on a reasonable cooldown, it IS free sustain.
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On May 09 2013 12:09 Ketara wrote:
If you're playing in lane against Yi with a champion who doesn't have a ranged hard CC on a reasonable cooldown, it IS free sustain.
No you missed the point. Yi devotes one of his four skills to get that sustain, so it isn't 'free'.
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As opposed to taking... E?
You aren't gonna get freer than Yi's W.
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The point is that, much like mass sustain starts that they recently removed, Yi's heal in lane makes it so actually fighting him at all in the lane is a waste of time, and you are encouraged to just leave him alone completely. Even if you win every trade you're typically still losing the lane because he's healing it all at nearly no mana cost, and you are not.
There are champions that can get around this by having hard CC and the ability to burst him down, but a lot of champions simply can't.
When you combine this with alpha strike being impossible to stop or dodge and pretty goddamn random in whether or not it hits you, you get a lane that is just not fun to be in.
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On May 09 2013 12:31 Ketara wrote:
The point is that, much like mass sustain starts that they recently removed, Yi's heal in lane makes it so actually fighting him at all in the lane is a waste of time, and you are encouraged to just leave him alone completely. Even if you win every trade you're typically still losing the lane because he's healing it all at nearly no mana cost, and you are not.
There are champions that can get around this by having hard CC and the ability to burst him down, but a lot of champions simply can't.
When you combine this with alpha strike being impossible to stop or dodge and pretty goddamn random in whether or not it hits you, you get a lane that is just not fun to be in.
It's like complaining about playing against a Cait as an ADC in a lane.
Sometimes you just let the lane go neutral and you outscale in lategame, or out play in lategame.
The whole game doesn't revolve around you winning your lane. Nor should Riot be balancing things around lane phase when there exists clear and obvious lategame solutions.
Why are people so stuck with this one dimensional mindset?
Also "anti-fun"; why are people using Riot taglines now?
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AP yi is stupid because how well he does in games depends mostly on teamcomp and not so much on gameplay.
If your team doesnt have any good ways to stop his heal your fucked, if like 4/5 do hes easy.
Laning vs him is stupid too.
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On May 09 2013 12:39 wei2coolman wrote:
Also "anti-fun"; why are people using Riot taglines now?
Because they're accurate.
AP Yi pretty much epitomizes the term. CD resets, unpredictable bounces, extremely long range bounces, obnoxiously high sustain, snowballs easily, extremely difficult to pin down (i.e. very hard to gank, therefore you're more or less on an island against all the other stupid shit he has that was already named).
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On May 09 2013 12:39 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 12:31 Ketara wrote:
The point is that, much like mass sustain starts that they recently removed, Yi's heal in lane makes it so actually fighting him at all in the lane is a waste of time, and you are encouraged to just leave him alone completely. Even if you win every trade you're typically still losing the lane because he's healing it all at nearly no mana cost, and you are not.
There are champions that can get around this by having hard CC and the ability to burst him down, but a lot of champions simply can't.
When you combine this with alpha strike being impossible to stop or dodge and pretty goddamn random in whether or not it hits you, you get a lane that is just not fun to be in. It's like complaining about playing against a Cait as an ADC in a lane. Sometimes you just let the lane go neutral and you outscale in lategame, or out play in lategame. The whole game doesn't revolve around you winning your lane. Nor should Riot be balancing things around lane phase when there exists clear and obvious lategame solutions. Why are people so stuck with this one dimensional mindset? Also "anti-fun"; why are people using Riot taglines now?
Explain to me how Yi's heal in a lane where the opposing laner has no hard CC is any different than somebody starting with 13 pots.
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On May 09 2013 12:49 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 12:39 wei2coolman wrote:On May 09 2013 12:31 Ketara wrote:
The point is that, much like mass sustain starts that they recently removed, Yi's heal in lane makes it so actually fighting him at all in the lane is a waste of time, and you are encouraged to just leave him alone completely. Even if you win every trade you're typically still losing the lane because he's healing it all at nearly no mana cost, and you are not.
There are champions that can get around this by having hard CC and the ability to burst him down, but a lot of champions simply can't.
When you combine this with alpha strike being impossible to stop or dodge and pretty goddamn random in whether or not it hits you, you get a lane that is just not fun to be in. It's like complaining about playing against a Cait as an ADC in a lane. Sometimes you just let the lane go neutral and you outscale in lategame, or out play in lategame. The whole game doesn't revolve around you winning your lane. Nor should Riot be balancing things around lane phase when there exists clear and obvious lategame solutions. Why are people so stuck with this one dimensional mindset? Also "anti-fun"; why are people using Riot taglines now? Explain to me how Yi's heal in a lane where the opposing laner has no hard CC is any different than somebody starting with 13 pots.
Man ketara, if you spent as much time playing this game as you did complaining about stuff on this forum you'd be challenger tier by now. And i'd have loaded over 2 whole games with my wooden toaster computer.
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On May 09 2013 12:49 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 12:39 wei2coolman wrote:On May 09 2013 12:31 Ketara wrote:
The point is that, much like mass sustain starts that they recently removed, Yi's heal in lane makes it so actually fighting him at all in the lane is a waste of time, and you are encouraged to just leave him alone completely. Even if you win every trade you're typically still losing the lane because he's healing it all at nearly no mana cost, and you are not.
There are champions that can get around this by having hard CC and the ability to burst him down, but a lot of champions simply can't.
When you combine this with alpha strike being impossible to stop or dodge and pretty goddamn random in whether or not it hits you, you get a lane that is just not fun to be in. It's like complaining about playing against a Cait as an ADC in a lane. Sometimes you just let the lane go neutral and you outscale in lategame, or out play in lategame. The whole game doesn't revolve around you winning your lane. Nor should Riot be balancing things around lane phase when there exists clear and obvious lategame solutions. Why are people so stuck with this one dimensional mindset? Also "anti-fun"; why are people using Riot taglines now? Explain to me how Yi's heal in a lane where the opposing laner has no hard CC is any different than somebody starting with 13 pots.
Explain to me how this is detrimental to the game? I don't care if lane goes neutral; I can out play the fucker lategame, and beat his ass down later on. Lane phase is not the end all and be all of the game.
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EPT
