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On April 27 2013 13:14 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:11 zodde wrote:
Can anyone explain how I just went 81->87->91->93->95->96->80 LP in my last 6 games in Gold I? Am I really supposed to lose 16 points but gaining 1 at 95~ LP? :O This is the new topic that needs to be added to the unspeakables. At least take it to the QQ thread or something.
It's not a whine, I am just surprised. I've been 90+ LP before, but I've never lost more than 5~ points, which seems kind of fair. Didn't think the system worked like this, that's all. But I'll shut up if that makes you happy.
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I don't have the motivation to go into my profile after every game and calculate my gains/losses.
They really need to fix that goddamn thing.
LEAGUE POINTS PROCESSING
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On April 27 2013 13:17 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:14 WaveofShadow wrote:On April 27 2013 13:11 zodde wrote:
Can anyone explain how I just went 81->87->91->93->95->96->80 LP in my last 6 games in Gold I? Am I really supposed to lose 16 points but gaining 1 at 95~ LP? :O This is the new topic that needs to be added to the unspeakables. At least take it to the QQ thread or something. It's not a whine, I am just surprised. I've been 90+ LP before, but I've never lost more than 5~ points, which seems kind of fair. Didn't think the system worked like this, that's all. But I'll shut up if that makes you happy.
It's not you specifically, it's just one of those topics in GD that's brought up about 100 times that you'd be able to find the answer to if you searched for 2 seconds. When you're about to be promoted a full Tier, the system automatically clamps your gains to see if you actually deserve to be there. It doesn't last forever and if you reach your promotion series or lose a bunch of times and climb back up to the 90 LP+ it doesn't clamp you again as far as I know.
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On April 27 2013 13:04 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:01 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 12:56 ChaoSbringer wrote:
A true 1v1 Riven Tournament would have 200+ games per match, with player A playing Riven against Player B doing all 113 champs, and then the reverse. Except that would depend more on the player's ability with the other champs. In theory, the more Riven oriented players would literally lose every matchup on not-Riven, while a player like Mega would probably manage to win some of the other matchups. A poorly thought out troll sir. Disagree. At high levels of play, I don't buy for a minute that if you main riven, you wouldn't know how to play optimally vs riven on every single champion in the game. winning vs riven reflects how well you understand riven. Your argument might apply to silver league and below, but if you're the top riven player in the world, you're not going to mysteriously be awful with other champions. love the idea of a Bo251 series where the remaining games are all mirrors
Knowing how Riven loses a matchup doesn't at all mean you can display that performance on the opposite side of the matchup, especially with more complex/'skill oriented' champs. I don't know the matchups so I'm throwing random champ names out there, but knowing that Voyboy dumpsters you on his Akali playing a certain way doesn't make you Voyboy on Akali if the matchup is reversed.
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On April 27 2013 13:32 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:04 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:01 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 12:56 ChaoSbringer wrote:
A true 1v1 Riven Tournament would have 200+ games per match, with player A playing Riven against Player B doing all 113 champs, and then the reverse. Except that would depend more on the player's ability with the other champs. In theory, the more Riven oriented players would literally lose every matchup on not-Riven, while a player like Mega would probably manage to win some of the other matchups. A poorly thought out troll sir. Disagree. At high levels of play, I don't buy for a minute that if you main riven, you wouldn't know how to play optimally vs riven on every single champion in the game. winning vs riven reflects how well you understand riven. Your argument might apply to silver league and below, but if you're the top riven player in the world, you're not going to mysteriously be awful with other champions. love the idea of a Bo251 series where the remaining games are all mirrors Knowing how Riven loses a matchup doesn't at all mean you can display that performance on the opposite side of the matchup, especially with more complex/'skill oriented' champs. I don't know the matchups so I'm throwing random champ names out there, but knowing that Voyboy dumpsters you on his Akali playing a certain way doesn't make you Voyboy on Akali if the matchup is reversed.
If you play riven at the highest level in the world, are you honestly telling me that you don't think you could dump on yourself as riven from the opposite side of a matchup if you've been dumped on a certain way before?
using the akali example, maybe voyboy R's to a minion to dodge riven's EW stun combo, and then abuses riven's cooldowns by QRautoQRautoing him twice.
I don't even know if that works or not, I'm not super high level, but assume thats how you've lost the matchup as riven before. you got caught using your cooldowns and akali abuses her mobility, then trades while your spells are down. if that's the key idea for winning vs riven as akali, then you think its too much rocket science as a non-akali player to pull that off?
Lee sin and possibly leblanc are the only heroes in the game I can possibly see having a skill cap high enough where top players could fuck it up even if they knew what they had to do to win. You're controlling one unit. It doesn't take more than 30 EAPM to properly play any champion in the game. This is not broodwar.
I'm arguing that if shy beats someone as nidalee vs singed. then beats that same person as singed vs nidalee, I highly doubt that he is simply mechanically outperforming those players. His knowledge of the matchup, the item he chooses to buy, and his understanding of jungle routes and potential locations all shape his decision making second to second. he does not click faster, or make plays no one else can.
Knowledge of a matchup defines skill, not mechanical ability. Knowing that jayce's E outranges a singed fling is important. Anyone can play vayne mechanically well. Anyone. Not everyone has the knowledge to play vayne at the highest level because which direction you tumble, the subtleties of her condemn, or knowing in an instant if you need to blow your flash or not, those are the decisions that separate great players from bad ones.
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The funny thing about that Riven tournament is that it's Riven mirror matchup, a scenario that is impossible in competitive play xD
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On April 27 2013 13:25 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:17 zodde wrote:On April 27 2013 13:14 WaveofShadow wrote:On April 27 2013 13:11 zodde wrote:
Can anyone explain how I just went 81->87->91->93->95->96->80 LP in my last 6 games in Gold I? Am I really supposed to lose 16 points but gaining 1 at 95~ LP? :O This is the new topic that needs to be added to the unspeakables. At least take it to the QQ thread or something. It's not a whine, I am just surprised. I've been 90+ LP before, but I've never lost more than 5~ points, which seems kind of fair. Didn't think the system worked like this, that's all. But I'll shut up if that makes you happy. It's not you specifically, it's just one of those topics in GD that's brought up about 100 times that you'd be able to find the answer to if you searched for 2 seconds. When you're about to be promoted a full Tier, the system automatically clamps your gains to see if you actually deserve to be there. It doesn't last forever and if you reach your promotion series or lose a bunch of times and climb back up to the 90 LP+ it doesn't clamp you again as far as I know.
Okay, yeah I thought I knew how the system worked, but I guess I didn't. I went back up to 96 after one game again, so I guess the system decided I am worthy of a plat promotion series? Sorry for asking stupid stuff, but this is pretty much the only reliable source for LoL information I know of.
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On April 27 2013 13:43 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:32 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:04 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:01 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 12:56 ChaoSbringer wrote:
A true 1v1 Riven Tournament would have 200+ games per match, with player A playing Riven against Player B doing all 113 champs, and then the reverse. Except that would depend more on the player's ability with the other champs. In theory, the more Riven oriented players would literally lose every matchup on not-Riven, while a player like Mega would probably manage to win some of the other matchups. A poorly thought out troll sir. Disagree. At high levels of play, I don't buy for a minute that if you main riven, you wouldn't know how to play optimally vs riven on every single champion in the game. winning vs riven reflects how well you understand riven. Your argument might apply to silver league and below, but if you're the top riven player in the world, you're not going to mysteriously be awful with other champions. love the idea of a Bo251 series where the remaining games are all mirrors Knowing how Riven loses a matchup doesn't at all mean you can display that performance on the opposite side of the matchup, especially with more complex/'skill oriented' champs. I don't know the matchups so I'm throwing random champ names out there, but knowing that Voyboy dumpsters you on his Akali playing a certain way doesn't make you Voyboy on Akali if the matchup is reversed. If you play riven at the highest level in the world, are you honestly telling me that you don't think you could dump on yourself as riven from the opposite side of a matchup if you've been dumped on a certain way before? using the akali example, maybe voyboy R's to a minion to dodge riven's EW stun combo, and then abuses riven's cooldowns by QRautoQRautoing him twice. I don't even know if that works or not, I'm not super high level, but assume thats how you've lost the matchup as riven before. you got caught using your cooldowns and akali abuses her mobility, then trades while your spells are down. if that's the key idea for winning vs riven as akali, then you think its too much rocket science as a non-akali player to pull that off? Lee sin and possibly leblanc are the only heroes in the game I can possibly see having a skill cap high enough where top players could fuck it up even if they knew what they had to do to win. You're controlling one unit. It doesn't take more than 30 EAPM to properly play any champion in the game. This is not broodwar. Knowledge of a matchup defines skill, not mechanical know-how. Anyone can play vayne mechanically well. Anyone. Not everyone has the knowledge to play vayne at the highest level because which direction you tumble, or knowing in an instant if you need to blow your flash or not, those are the decisions that separate great players from bad ones.
When the person across from you in the matchup is also playing at the highest level(regionally) at the position on all of the other champions(MegaZero in this case), I absolutely think that his ability at the other champions would be more of a factor(when he's not on Riven) in comparison to the other players' on said other champions. He's going to steamroll the Rivens on champs that they will lose to him on when he is Riven, because he is a better player in general at the complete champion pool. It's not like he doesn't know the matchup either, given that everyone in the tourney is claiming to be a 'best Riven.'
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On April 27 2013 13:50 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:43 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:32 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:04 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:01 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 12:56 ChaoSbringer wrote:
A true 1v1 Riven Tournament would have 200+ games per match, with player A playing Riven against Player B doing all 113 champs, and then the reverse. Except that would depend more on the player's ability with the other champs. In theory, the more Riven oriented players would literally lose every matchup on not-Riven, while a player like Mega would probably manage to win some of the other matchups. A poorly thought out troll sir. Disagree. At high levels of play, I don't buy for a minute that if you main riven, you wouldn't know how to play optimally vs riven on every single champion in the game. winning vs riven reflects how well you understand riven. Your argument might apply to silver league and below, but if you're the top riven player in the world, you're not going to mysteriously be awful with other champions. love the idea of a Bo251 series where the remaining games are all mirrors Knowing how Riven loses a matchup doesn't at all mean you can display that performance on the opposite side of the matchup, especially with more complex/'skill oriented' champs. I don't know the matchups so I'm throwing random champ names out there, but knowing that Voyboy dumpsters you on his Akali playing a certain way doesn't make you Voyboy on Akali if the matchup is reversed. If you play riven at the highest level in the world, are you honestly telling me that you don't think you could dump on yourself as riven from the opposite side of a matchup if you've been dumped on a certain way before? using the akali example, maybe voyboy R's to a minion to dodge riven's EW stun combo, and then abuses riven's cooldowns by QRautoQRautoing him twice. I don't even know if that works or not, I'm not super high level, but assume thats how you've lost the matchup as riven before. you got caught using your cooldowns and akali abuses her mobility, then trades while your spells are down. if that's the key idea for winning vs riven as akali, then you think its too much rocket science as a non-akali player to pull that off? Lee sin and possibly leblanc are the only heroes in the game I can possibly see having a skill cap high enough where top players could fuck it up even if they knew what they had to do to win. You're controlling one unit. It doesn't take more than 30 EAPM to properly play any champion in the game. This is not broodwar. Knowledge of a matchup defines skill, not mechanical know-how. Anyone can play vayne mechanically well. Anyone. Not everyone has the knowledge to play vayne at the highest level because which direction you tumble, or knowing in an instant if you need to blow your flash or not, those are the decisions that separate great players from bad ones. When the person across from you in the matchup is also playing at the highest level(regionally) at the position on all of the other champions(MegaZero in this case), I absolutely think that his ability at the other champions would be more of a factor(when he's not on Riven) in comparison to the other players' on said other champions. He's going to steamroll the Riven's on champs that they will lose to him on when he is Riven, because he is a better player in general at the complete champion pool. It's not like he doesn't know the matchup either, given that everyone in the tourney is claiming to be a 'best Riven.'
If megazero beats cris with champion X, and then megazero beats cris as riven vs champion X, and this trend continues throughout a best of 250 series, where megazero wins 170 of the games, that is strong evidence that he is the better riven player, and not simply a stronger champion X, Y, Z...etc player.
My point is this: If you are the best riven player in the world, I argue that it is not possible to be mechanically bad at any hero in the game. The only thing that would separate players in a theoretical best-of series is knowledge of the specific matchup, with the ability to execute said strategy being weighted far less.
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On April 27 2013 13:55 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:50 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:43 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:32 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:04 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:01 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 12:56 ChaoSbringer wrote:
A true 1v1 Riven Tournament would have 200+ games per match, with player A playing Riven against Player B doing all 113 champs, and then the reverse. Except that would depend more on the player's ability with the other champs. In theory, the more Riven oriented players would literally lose every matchup on not-Riven, while a player like Mega would probably manage to win some of the other matchups. A poorly thought out troll sir. Disagree. At high levels of play, I don't buy for a minute that if you main riven, you wouldn't know how to play optimally vs riven on every single champion in the game. winning vs riven reflects how well you understand riven. Your argument might apply to silver league and below, but if you're the top riven player in the world, you're not going to mysteriously be awful with other champions. love the idea of a Bo251 series where the remaining games are all mirrors Knowing how Riven loses a matchup doesn't at all mean you can display that performance on the opposite side of the matchup, especially with more complex/'skill oriented' champs. I don't know the matchups so I'm throwing random champ names out there, but knowing that Voyboy dumpsters you on his Akali playing a certain way doesn't make you Voyboy on Akali if the matchup is reversed. If you play riven at the highest level in the world, are you honestly telling me that you don't think you could dump on yourself as riven from the opposite side of a matchup if you've been dumped on a certain way before? using the akali example, maybe voyboy R's to a minion to dodge riven's EW stun combo, and then abuses riven's cooldowns by QRautoQRautoing him twice. I don't even know if that works or not, I'm not super high level, but assume thats how you've lost the matchup as riven before. you got caught using your cooldowns and akali abuses her mobility, then trades while your spells are down. if that's the key idea for winning vs riven as akali, then you think its too much rocket science as a non-akali player to pull that off? Lee sin and possibly leblanc are the only heroes in the game I can possibly see having a skill cap high enough where top players could fuck it up even if they knew what they had to do to win. You're controlling one unit. It doesn't take more than 30 EAPM to properly play any champion in the game. This is not broodwar. Knowledge of a matchup defines skill, not mechanical know-how. Anyone can play vayne mechanically well. Anyone. Not everyone has the knowledge to play vayne at the highest level because which direction you tumble, or knowing in an instant if you need to blow your flash or not, those are the decisions that separate great players from bad ones. When the person across from you in the matchup is also playing at the highest level(regionally) at the position on all of the other champions(MegaZero in this case), I absolutely think that his ability at the other champions would be more of a factor(when he's not on Riven) in comparison to the other players' on said other champions. He's going to steamroll the Riven's on champs that they will lose to him on when he is Riven, because he is a better player in general at the complete champion pool. It's not like he doesn't know the matchup either, given that everyone in the tourney is claiming to be a 'best Riven.' If megazero beats cris with champion X, and then megazero beats cris as riven vs champion X, and this trend continues throughout a best of 250 series, where megazero wins 170 of the games, that is strong evidence that he is the better riven player, and not simply a stronger champion X, Y, Z...etc player. My point is this: If you are the best riven player in the world, I argue that it is not possible to be mechanically bad at any hero in the game. The only thing that would separate players in a theoretical best-of series is knowledge of the specific matchup, with the ability to execute said strategy being weighted far less.
In theory, if the test were Riven vs all ADCs, Doublelift would probably be favored on a lot of the ADCs vs the Riven as opposed to as Riven vs the ADC correct? He would be expected to suck ass on the Riven vs Vayne matchup, but dominate it the other way around(even in some world where it's a 5:5 matchup). That doesn't make him a better Riven player.
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On April 27 2013 14:05 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:55 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:50 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:43 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:32 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:04 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:01 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 12:56 ChaoSbringer wrote:
A true 1v1 Riven Tournament would have 200+ games per match, with player A playing Riven against Player B doing all 113 champs, and then the reverse. Except that would depend more on the player's ability with the other champs. In theory, the more Riven oriented players would literally lose every matchup on not-Riven, while a player like Mega would probably manage to win some of the other matchups. A poorly thought out troll sir. Disagree. At high levels of play, I don't buy for a minute that if you main riven, you wouldn't know how to play optimally vs riven on every single champion in the game. winning vs riven reflects how well you understand riven. Your argument might apply to silver league and below, but if you're the top riven player in the world, you're not going to mysteriously be awful with other champions. love the idea of a Bo251 series where the remaining games are all mirrors Knowing how Riven loses a matchup doesn't at all mean you can display that performance on the opposite side of the matchup, especially with more complex/'skill oriented' champs. I don't know the matchups so I'm throwing random champ names out there, but knowing that Voyboy dumpsters you on his Akali playing a certain way doesn't make you Voyboy on Akali if the matchup is reversed. If you play riven at the highest level in the world, are you honestly telling me that you don't think you could dump on yourself as riven from the opposite side of a matchup if you've been dumped on a certain way before? using the akali example, maybe voyboy R's to a minion to dodge riven's EW stun combo, and then abuses riven's cooldowns by QRautoQRautoing him twice. I don't even know if that works or not, I'm not super high level, but assume thats how you've lost the matchup as riven before. you got caught using your cooldowns and akali abuses her mobility, then trades while your spells are down. if that's the key idea for winning vs riven as akali, then you think its too much rocket science as a non-akali player to pull that off? Lee sin and possibly leblanc are the only heroes in the game I can possibly see having a skill cap high enough where top players could fuck it up even if they knew what they had to do to win. You're controlling one unit. It doesn't take more than 30 EAPM to properly play any champion in the game. This is not broodwar. Knowledge of a matchup defines skill, not mechanical know-how. Anyone can play vayne mechanically well. Anyone. Not everyone has the knowledge to play vayne at the highest level because which direction you tumble, or knowing in an instant if you need to blow your flash or not, those are the decisions that separate great players from bad ones. When the person across from you in the matchup is also playing at the highest level(regionally) at the position on all of the other champions(MegaZero in this case), I absolutely think that his ability at the other champions would be more of a factor(when he's not on Riven) in comparison to the other players' on said other champions. He's going to steamroll the Riven's on champs that they will lose to him on when he is Riven, because he is a better player in general at the complete champion pool. It's not like he doesn't know the matchup either, given that everyone in the tourney is claiming to be a 'best Riven.' If megazero beats cris with champion X, and then megazero beats cris as riven vs champion X, and this trend continues throughout a best of 250 series, where megazero wins 170 of the games, that is strong evidence that he is the better riven player, and not simply a stronger champion X, Y, Z...etc player. My point is this: If you are the best riven player in the world, I argue that it is not possible to be mechanically bad at any hero in the game. The only thing that would separate players in a theoretical best-of series is knowledge of the specific matchup, with the ability to execute said strategy being weighted far less. In theory, if the test were Riven vs all ADCs, Doublelift would probably be favored on a lot of the ADCs vs the Riven as opposed to as Riven vs the ADC correct? He would be expected to suck ass on the Riven vs Vayne matchup, but dominate it the other way around(even in some world where it's a 5:5 matchup). That doesn't make him a better Riven player.
Clearly not, because you restricted it to vs ADC's it suddenly has a heavy weight toward ADC performance. Any other strawmen?
I also disagree with the assumption that LiftLift will automatically suck with riven because he plays ADC. He might, empirically, but it shouldn't be assumed.
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On April 27 2013 14:10 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 14:05 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:55 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:50 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:43 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:32 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:04 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:01 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 12:56 ChaoSbringer wrote:
A true 1v1 Riven Tournament would have 200+ games per match, with player A playing Riven against Player B doing all 113 champs, and then the reverse. Except that would depend more on the player's ability with the other champs. In theory, the more Riven oriented players would literally lose every matchup on not-Riven, while a player like Mega would probably manage to win some of the other matchups. A poorly thought out troll sir. Disagree. At high levels of play, I don't buy for a minute that if you main riven, you wouldn't know how to play optimally vs riven on every single champion in the game. winning vs riven reflects how well you understand riven. Your argument might apply to silver league and below, but if you're the top riven player in the world, you're not going to mysteriously be awful with other champions. love the idea of a Bo251 series where the remaining games are all mirrors Knowing how Riven loses a matchup doesn't at all mean you can display that performance on the opposite side of the matchup, especially with more complex/'skill oriented' champs. I don't know the matchups so I'm throwing random champ names out there, but knowing that Voyboy dumpsters you on his Akali playing a certain way doesn't make you Voyboy on Akali if the matchup is reversed. If you play riven at the highest level in the world, are you honestly telling me that you don't think you could dump on yourself as riven from the opposite side of a matchup if you've been dumped on a certain way before? using the akali example, maybe voyboy R's to a minion to dodge riven's EW stun combo, and then abuses riven's cooldowns by QRautoQRautoing him twice. I don't even know if that works or not, I'm not super high level, but assume thats how you've lost the matchup as riven before. you got caught using your cooldowns and akali abuses her mobility, then trades while your spells are down. if that's the key idea for winning vs riven as akali, then you think its too much rocket science as a non-akali player to pull that off? Lee sin and possibly leblanc are the only heroes in the game I can possibly see having a skill cap high enough where top players could fuck it up even if they knew what they had to do to win. You're controlling one unit. It doesn't take more than 30 EAPM to properly play any champion in the game. This is not broodwar. Knowledge of a matchup defines skill, not mechanical know-how. Anyone can play vayne mechanically well. Anyone. Not everyone has the knowledge to play vayne at the highest level because which direction you tumble, or knowing in an instant if you need to blow your flash or not, those are the decisions that separate great players from bad ones. When the person across from you in the matchup is also playing at the highest level(regionally) at the position on all of the other champions(MegaZero in this case), I absolutely think that his ability at the other champions would be more of a factor(when he's not on Riven) in comparison to the other players' on said other champions. He's going to steamroll the Riven's on champs that they will lose to him on when he is Riven, because he is a better player in general at the complete champion pool. It's not like he doesn't know the matchup either, given that everyone in the tourney is claiming to be a 'best Riven.' If megazero beats cris with champion X, and then megazero beats cris as riven vs champion X, and this trend continues throughout a best of 250 series, where megazero wins 170 of the games, that is strong evidence that he is the better riven player, and not simply a stronger champion X, Y, Z...etc player. My point is this: If you are the best riven player in the world, I argue that it is not possible to be mechanically bad at any hero in the game. The only thing that would separate players in a theoretical best-of series is knowledge of the specific matchup, with the ability to execute said strategy being weighted far less. In theory, if the test were Riven vs all ADCs, Doublelift would probably be favored on a lot of the ADCs vs the Riven as opposed to as Riven vs the ADC correct? He would be expected to suck ass on the Riven vs Vayne matchup, but dominate it the other way around(even in some world where it's a 5:5 matchup). That doesn't make him a better Riven player. Clearly not, because you restricted it to vs ADC's it suddenly has a heavy weight toward ADC performance. Any other strawmen?
So, you agree that performance on other champions has a clear effect on the test?
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On April 27 2013 14:10 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 14:10 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 14:05 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:55 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:50 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:43 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:32 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:04 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:01 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 12:56 ChaoSbringer wrote:
A true 1v1 Riven Tournament would have 200+ games per match, with player A playing Riven against Player B doing all 113 champs, and then the reverse. Except that would depend more on the player's ability with the other champs. In theory, the more Riven oriented players would literally lose every matchup on not-Riven, while a player like Mega would probably manage to win some of the other matchups. A poorly thought out troll sir. Disagree. At high levels of play, I don't buy for a minute that if you main riven, you wouldn't know how to play optimally vs riven on every single champion in the game. winning vs riven reflects how well you understand riven. Your argument might apply to silver league and below, but if you're the top riven player in the world, you're not going to mysteriously be awful with other champions. love the idea of a Bo251 series where the remaining games are all mirrors Knowing how Riven loses a matchup doesn't at all mean you can display that performance on the opposite side of the matchup, especially with more complex/'skill oriented' champs. I don't know the matchups so I'm throwing random champ names out there, but knowing that Voyboy dumpsters you on his Akali playing a certain way doesn't make you Voyboy on Akali if the matchup is reversed. If you play riven at the highest level in the world, are you honestly telling me that you don't think you could dump on yourself as riven from the opposite side of a matchup if you've been dumped on a certain way before? using the akali example, maybe voyboy R's to a minion to dodge riven's EW stun combo, and then abuses riven's cooldowns by QRautoQRautoing him twice. I don't even know if that works or not, I'm not super high level, but assume thats how you've lost the matchup as riven before. you got caught using your cooldowns and akali abuses her mobility, then trades while your spells are down. if that's the key idea for winning vs riven as akali, then you think its too much rocket science as a non-akali player to pull that off? Lee sin and possibly leblanc are the only heroes in the game I can possibly see having a skill cap high enough where top players could fuck it up even if they knew what they had to do to win. You're controlling one unit. It doesn't take more than 30 EAPM to properly play any champion in the game. This is not broodwar. Knowledge of a matchup defines skill, not mechanical know-how. Anyone can play vayne mechanically well. Anyone. Not everyone has the knowledge to play vayne at the highest level because which direction you tumble, or knowing in an instant if you need to blow your flash or not, those are the decisions that separate great players from bad ones. When the person across from you in the matchup is also playing at the highest level(regionally) at the position on all of the other champions(MegaZero in this case), I absolutely think that his ability at the other champions would be more of a factor(when he's not on Riven) in comparison to the other players' on said other champions. He's going to steamroll the Riven's on champs that they will lose to him on when he is Riven, because he is a better player in general at the complete champion pool. It's not like he doesn't know the matchup either, given that everyone in the tourney is claiming to be a 'best Riven.' If megazero beats cris with champion X, and then megazero beats cris as riven vs champion X, and this trend continues throughout a best of 250 series, where megazero wins 170 of the games, that is strong evidence that he is the better riven player, and not simply a stronger champion X, Y, Z...etc player. My point is this: If you are the best riven player in the world, I argue that it is not possible to be mechanically bad at any hero in the game. The only thing that would separate players in a theoretical best-of series is knowledge of the specific matchup, with the ability to execute said strategy being weighted far less. In theory, if the test were Riven vs all ADCs, Doublelift would probably be favored on a lot of the ADCs vs the Riven as opposed to as Riven vs the ADC correct? He would be expected to suck ass on the Riven vs Vayne matchup, but dominate it the other way around(even in some world where it's a 5:5 matchup). That doesn't make him a better Riven player. Clearly not, because you restricted it to vs ADC's it suddenly has a heavy weight toward ADC performance. Any other strawmen? So, you agree that performance on other champions has a clear effect on the test?
An effect that is balanced out by the fact that all matchups contain riven or not riven, and are played both ways.
I agree with what you're saying if this was just a random gold league tournament. Clearly the person who plays better at every other champion is going to be weighted better than a purely better riven player who sucks at everyone else. I'm arguing that as BEST RIVEN WORLD, those effects vanish to zero as both players become mechanically competent, and knowledge of the riven matchup itself takes precedent.
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On April 27 2013 14:12 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 14:10 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 14:10 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 14:05 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:55 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:50 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:43 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:32 red_ wrote:On April 27 2013 13:04 ItsFunToLose wrote:On April 27 2013 13:01 red_ wrote:
[quote]
Except that would depend more on the player's ability with the other champs. In theory, the more Riven oriented players would literally lose every matchup on not-Riven, while a player like Mega would probably manage to win some of the other matchups.
A poorly thought out troll sir. Disagree. At high levels of play, I don't buy for a minute that if you main riven, you wouldn't know how to play optimally vs riven on every single champion in the game. winning vs riven reflects how well you understand riven. Your argument might apply to silver league and below, but if you're the top riven player in the world, you're not going to mysteriously be awful with other champions. love the idea of a Bo251 series where the remaining games are all mirrors Knowing how Riven loses a matchup doesn't at all mean you can display that performance on the opposite side of the matchup, especially with more complex/'skill oriented' champs. I don't know the matchups so I'm throwing random champ names out there, but knowing that Voyboy dumpsters you on his Akali playing a certain way doesn't make you Voyboy on Akali if the matchup is reversed. If you play riven at the highest level in the world, are you honestly telling me that you don't think you could dump on yourself as riven from the opposite side of a matchup if you've been dumped on a certain way before? using the akali example, maybe voyboy R's to a minion to dodge riven's EW stun combo, and then abuses riven's cooldowns by QRautoQRautoing him twice. I don't even know if that works or not, I'm not super high level, but assume thats how you've lost the matchup as riven before. you got caught using your cooldowns and akali abuses her mobility, then trades while your spells are down. if that's the key idea for winning vs riven as akali, then you think its too much rocket science as a non-akali player to pull that off? Lee sin and possibly leblanc are the only heroes in the game I can possibly see having a skill cap high enough where top players could fuck it up even if they knew what they had to do to win. You're controlling one unit. It doesn't take more than 30 EAPM to properly play any champion in the game. This is not broodwar. Knowledge of a matchup defines skill, not mechanical know-how. Anyone can play vayne mechanically well. Anyone. Not everyone has the knowledge to play vayne at the highest level because which direction you tumble, or knowing in an instant if you need to blow your flash or not, those are the decisions that separate great players from bad ones. When the person across from you in the matchup is also playing at the highest level(regionally) at the position on all of the other champions(MegaZero in this case), I absolutely think that his ability at the other champions would be more of a factor(when he's not on Riven) in comparison to the other players' on said other champions. He's going to steamroll the Riven's on champs that they will lose to him on when he is Riven, because he is a better player in general at the complete champion pool. It's not like he doesn't know the matchup either, given that everyone in the tourney is claiming to be a 'best Riven.' If megazero beats cris with champion X, and then megazero beats cris as riven vs champion X, and this trend continues throughout a best of 250 series, where megazero wins 170 of the games, that is strong evidence that he is the better riven player, and not simply a stronger champion X, Y, Z...etc player. My point is this: If you are the best riven player in the world, I argue that it is not possible to be mechanically bad at any hero in the game. The only thing that would separate players in a theoretical best-of series is knowledge of the specific matchup, with the ability to execute said strategy being weighted far less. In theory, if the test were Riven vs all ADCs, Doublelift would probably be favored on a lot of the ADCs vs the Riven as opposed to as Riven vs the ADC correct? He would be expected to suck ass on the Riven vs Vayne matchup, but dominate it the other way around(even in some world where it's a 5:5 matchup). That doesn't make him a better Riven player. Clearly not, because you restricted it to vs ADC's it suddenly has a heavy weight toward ADC performance. Any other strawmen? So, you agree that performance on other champions has a clear effect on the test? An effect that is balanced out by the fact that all matchups contain riven or not riven, and are played both ways. I agree with what you're saying if this was just a random gold league tournament. Clearly the person who plays better at every other champion is going to be weighted better than a purely better riven player who sucks at everyone else. I'm arguing that as BEST RIVEN WORLD, those effects vanish to zero as both players become mechanically competent, and knowledge of the riven matchup itself takes precedent.
It's not 'BEST RIVEN WORLD' and never has been. It's Best Riven NA* -*Among people who choose to sign up and argue it. That's a nitpick and not really relevant though(although you seem to think these are somehow perfect players with perfect mechanics who are immune to mistakes or something).
We've seen evidence of other players on other champs being literally at or damn near the top of NA on one champ, but being maybe platinum or worse on others. This extrapolates out into being specified in roles as well. It also has to do with 'playstyles' that players develop, where they are inherently better at some champs than others because it fits with how they play the game(aggressive, passive, roaming, split pushing, w/e). Convoluting a 'best Riven' competition by putting ANY emphasis on a player's ability with not-Riven instantly takes away credit from the idea that the test was an attempt to show how good of a Riven they are, because even if they should be somewhat capable with the other champs, they won't be equally capable with the other champs, and that lack of equality doesn't necessarily arise from their ability(or lack thereof, thus the DoubleLift example) to play Riven.
Edit: A better example might be someone like Nien, who has shown to be extremely capable at multiple roles. I would absolutely expect him to 'win' the overall best of 2xx because he is so much better at a large variety of champs(and thus matchups) than his 'Riven' opponents, and thus will have an absurd edge in the 'I've never played this' matchups because he's far more comfortable with a larger amount of the pool. That doesn't make him a better Riven, it makes him a better everything else.
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On April 27 2013 13:20 Craton wrote:
I don't have the motivation to go into my profile after every game and calculate my gains/losses.
They really need to fix that goddamn thing.
LEAGUE POINTS PROCESSING
I don't track my LP if they decide to display LEAGUE INFO PROCESSING, which is pretty much all the time. At the end of the day I just go into the leagues tab, and I'm like, cool, I have 57 points, fancy that.
Tracking your gains and losses for every single game is just going to drive you crazy. The LP system is designed to long-term track your MMR, so it makes sense to only look at it in a long term perspective (i.e. once a day or so). They'll tell you explicitly if you get into a promo series, so you don't even have to worry about missing that.
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On April 27 2013 13:25 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 13:17 zodde wrote:On April 27 2013 13:14 WaveofShadow wrote:On April 27 2013 13:11 zodde wrote:
Can anyone explain how I just went 81->87->91->93->95->96->80 LP in my last 6 games in Gold I? Am I really supposed to lose 16 points but gaining 1 at 95~ LP? :O This is the new topic that needs to be added to the unspeakables. At least take it to the QQ thread or something. It's not a whine, I am just surprised. I've been 90+ LP before, but I've never lost more than 5~ points, which seems kind of fair. Didn't think the system worked like this, that's all. But I'll shut up if that makes you happy. It's not you specifically, it's just one of those topics in GD that's brought up about 100 times that you'd be able to find the answer to if you searched for 2 seconds. When you're about to be promoted a full Tier, the system automatically clamps your gains to see if you actually deserve to be there. It doesn't last forever and if you reach your promotion series or lose a bunch of times and climb back up to the 90 LP+ it doesn't clamp you again as far as I know.
Thank god because the exact same thing just happened to me for no reason, i was gaining like 30 a game until i got to ~60 LP Gold 1 and suddenly I gain 12 9 6 4 3 3 to put me at 97 then -21 cuz of a loss. Real.
I think it's so stupid that they cap it artificially because it clearly thinks I don't belong there when it's not artificially capped so why does that change as soon as I get close to promo?
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On April 27 2013 13:44 Sufficiency wrote:
The funny thing about that Riven tournament is that it's Riven mirror matchup, a scenario that is impossible in competitive play xD
That's the best part. 1v1 tournaments don't work the best, but mirror grudge matches? SO GOOD.
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On April 27 2013 13:20 Craton wrote:
I don't have the motivation to go into my profile after every game and calculate my gains/losses.
They really need to fix that goddamn thing.
LEAGUE POINTS PROCESSING
dat extra single click
literally too much for old-man craton
he struggles too much with those fancy schmancy "favorites" in his "internet explorer"
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On April 27 2013 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:
cris will be entering and dominating the 1v1 riven thing. first of all what a silly thing, a 1v1 matchup with a champ w/o skillshots, second of all what a silly thing leaving out the original riven player (respect navi, but i mean cris here)
original riven would be WR xDDDDD :pppp
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This nien vs mega 1v1 is getting good.
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EPT
