EPT[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 437
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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Irave
United States9965 Posts
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
http://esportcalendar.com/LoL/ | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
edit: on the other hand, casting games of players who are lower level than a very large portion of the viewers is a completely separate issue. | ||
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hasuprotoss
United States4612 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:02 WaveofShadow wrote: I'm sorry, but if that is what people are expecting in terms of having ex-pros doing the casting then that's ridiculous. Essentially what it seems to be boiling down to is "unless you understand what is going on in that person's head, then you can't commentate on their play because you can't understand the situation they're in." How the hell would anyone EVER be able to commentate on anything then? You don't see ex-pro football players giving such extreme context every time the quarterback tries a handoff that fails/gets fumbled rather than try for an easy short pass. No they give short analysis, talk about what THEY THINK the guy should have done, and that's it. He may be wrong, he may be right, but he certainly doesn't talk about the quarterback's entire past season and every other time he's ever tried to make a play like that and his team-mates thoughts, hopes and dreams. There are too many unknowns at any point in time to ever have a perfect grasp of the situation. The ONLY person that can ever commentate on that is the player who makes the play themselves, post-game. Barring that, there are people who make it THEIR JOBS to GAIN an understanding of what high-level play is like at any sport, E- or otherwise, and as such they can commentate on it at a near-perfect level. Again, I agree that there are man y that come up short, and those who think they understand when they really don't, but the level of perfection that people seem to want from analysis casters on this forums appears absolutely ludicrous. I'm sorry, your example doesn't make much sense to me, but I think what you're saying in your example is what I am expecting. But you can't expect someone who is awful at the game to understand why Player A went for X item. I don't know what I'm really trying to say about this, but essentially I think I'm trying to get to a point that you can't expect low level players to give decent commentary. How many times on streams do you hear commentators just say things that are flat out wrong? If the people commentating are bad, then probably more often than not. I understand why you think what I said was bad, and I agree what you thought I said would be better delegated to more specialist sites to have a discourse of the game events for those few people who enjoy the extreme indepth analysis, but I was talking more about not being completely wrong on general game knowledge and just pointing out mistakes as mistakes instead of giving a little bit of insight into why things happened the way they did. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:00 AsnSensation wrote: Actually JiJi said in his Facebook post, that he was ready to move in for s3 ( kinda had to because of livematches in LA) but abandoned those plans obv because he's not a starter anymore. I can imagine how it has to suck though to play for months with a team, while knowing that chauster, one of the most vocal members, is openly bashing you in his AMA. And hotshot seemed to blame alot on Jiji too, mostly because of his own insecurities about his play because he is basically facing the same problem from the public. Honestly I have also been very critical of Jiji during the last months, but he actually showed some improvements during IPL 5. I might not be as sad as others because I'm a Link fanboy but yeah seeing Jiji benched is kinda disappointing. it's been more than a the last months, its been over an entire season. He's been disappointing all of S2, and even in S3. He did alright during ipl5 when he was playing anivia, but other than that his passive laning phase (but inability to farm as efficient as his passive playing mid peers), has been a crucial weakness. He has an alright champ pool, but all of them are fairly mediocre level.\ EDIT: actually think it was ipl4. not 5 | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:10 Scip wrote: I think you are overreacting to that specific post a bit Wave. You don't need anywhere near impossible knowledge to be able to say what the player was (broadly) trying to accomplish with his play, why didn't it work out and how it will affect the game now, PERHAPS how would the game change had the play worked out. You need 3 or 4 average lenght sentences at most to do all that and no magical knowledge required. edit: on the other hand, casting games of players who are lower level than a very large portion of the viewers is a completely separate issue. Yeah maybe I am overreacting a bit (apologies to you, hasuprotoss); call it my knee-jerk reaction to the caster-hate I know a lot of my fellow casters get (and some deserve. Honestly I was shocked neither of us got any Twitch Chat hate last night). The thing is, the three or four sentences one can give regarding a player's decisions only give a very small part of the whole picture and even the absolute best casters are going to miss things here and there. I just don't see what people seem to find inherently wrong with someone giving analysis on a decision who has studied similar decisions before, and who may have that level of understanding of the game at a 5s pro level without having the talent to put it into practice. If, as you say, it doesn't require impossible knowledge to provide such an analysis, why can't anyone other than Jatt/Kobe do it? | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:11 hasuprotoss wrote: I'm sorry, your example doesn't make much sense to me, but I think what you're saying in your example is what I am expecting. But you can't expect someone who is awful at the game to understand why Player A went for X item. I don't know what I'm really trying to say about this, but essentially I think I'm trying to get to a point that you can't expect low level players to give decent commentary. How many times on streams do you hear commentators just say things that are flat out wrong? If the people commentating are bad, then probably more often than not. I understand why you think what I said was bad, and I agree what you thought I said would be better delegated to more specialist sites to have a discourse of the game events for those few people who enjoy the extreme indepth analysis, but I was talking more about not being completely wrong on general game knowledge and just pointing out mistakes as mistakes instead of giving a little bit of insight into why things happened the way they did. Gonna have to disagree. Some "low level" have a better understanding than others, otherwise us 1200 level players would never be able to state that "caster was wrong about this intention" in the first place. Casting requires a knowledge base to do it, but ultimately takes a different skillset than being a top level player. The skillsets overlap in many places (so some top players can indeed be good casters) but it ultimately takes practice and effort to improve as a caster. | ||
JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:04 xes wrote: Anyone who has a good enough understanding of the game doesn't need commentary. BW was done in Korean and a ton of D- players were still able to figure out enough of what was going on to be entertained; sure we missed the really awesome things that really determined the outcome of the game that a better player would've picked up (upgrade timings etc) but even if someone pointed it out it wouldn't have made sense anyways because there's no intuitive understanding of the relevancy. That's my point. For a given audience member with a certain understanding of the game, there's a certain level of commentary that's useful to him--where it's showing him things that are not immediately obvious to him, but at the same time are within his level of understanding of the game. This defines what level of analysis is most ideal for him--anything that he already knows is "boring", anything he doesn't understand is confusing. Any commentator going into a game has to assume a certain level of understanding for his audience, and gear his commentary toward that audience. There's too much going on for you to be able to explain everything for all levels of play, and so you have to tailor your commentary to your audience. Typically a better player can better analyze games for a higher-level audience, so by and large, commentators should commentate toward a level of play slightly below their own understanding of the game (this also probably happens to be the most natural for people). This is exactly why lower-level commentary/analysis is useful. There are a lot of audience members who actually do not have that good of an understanding of the game. The key is that the commentator needs to recognize his own level of understanding and stay within the bounds of it--knowing that his audience isn't going to want or expect more. It's when the commentator speaks outside of his own understanding where it becomes problematic. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On January 16 2013 02:53 sob3k wrote: I would absolutely love if you could just buy the zhonya active for cheap like a QSS without all those stats, thats all I want it for. It makes it a huge pain to build compared to other items if you feel you want it earlyer because its so expensive. I play really mana hungry mids so its very painful to build it before I have a solid mana supply, and delays dcap annoyingly, especially if the armor isn't needed. Hm... an item centered around the Zhonya active (with some stats slapped over it) and priced accordingly I'd be fine with. AP carries tend to focus on items giving at least AP and/or CDR when they look for utility, rather than only the utility, because they're much more reliant on their spells for damage. If I needed to defend myself against a physical threat (that doesn't stack ArPen runes, LW and BC, of course, so we can talk about armor) in a game without Zhonya, I'd go for FH rather than randuin's despite the higher physical EHP the latter provides because FH also has spell-casting related stats in the form of CDR. They're dependant on it for their role, be it utility or pure damage, contrary to, say, AD carries than always have their "tools" available in the form of auto-attacks.* The AP champs that build more bruiser-like (warmogs, GA and stuff) either have low cooldowns (Diana, Katarina, Akali) and/or non-reliance on a long-cooldown ult (Nidalee, Karma, Swain somewhat) or rely on dps-oriented kits (Fiddle, Karthus if he didn't have his passive). Then you also have bullshit like Anivia. You need to build enough damage to make stuff happen by the casting of your spells, otherwise you are forced to make a second rotation bring more to the table than a single one with a damage build would have (base damage on spells favors the "more rotations" approach, but the stuff that happens before your cooldowns are back up, like somebody who would have died to a damage build killing an ally before your second rotation finishes him off, has a bearing on this too). Not a lot of mages have the tools in their kits to justify this (Orianna, combined with a very low cd Q, Lux combined with her very high base damage and low cd ult, bullshit Anivia) so they instead rely primarily on the damage part of said kit. The champions building Zhonya for the active like the armour too most of the time (Swain, Kennen, Karthus, Fiddlesticks, Vlad, and most of the "bruiserish" APs like Diana and Katarina) and it would serve into increasing their overall damage. Since they are already enticed into forgoing damage for survivability (how often did you see Vlad, Kennen or Swain complete a deathcap before their 3th or even 4th item, especially when revolver was popular on the first 2?), why would you punish them even more by forcing them to buy two items instead of currently one to cover the same needs? Also for what it's worth, DFG beats deathcap for single target damage inflicted during its duration as long as the base damage of your abilities represents more than 40% of your total damage. (I actually like Swain a lot for this, because all 3 items coming from a NLR cover different needs/situations changing from game to game. With a build like sorcs, mana item (RoA or Seraph's), armor item (Zhonya), MR item (Abyssal or QSS or SV or Grail), damage item (Rabadon or DFG), void staff you can do without deathcap pretty easily, especially if more defensive items are required or you fell behind and must delay the damage item.) * If somebody really wanted to nitpick I guess he could argue that AS if the CDR of autoattacking carries. x) | ||
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:30 Chrispy wrote: Jiji's a cool guy and I want to believe he's still got it in him but all these people saying that this will give him time to train - w0t? He's had the entire past two years to train. Being sub for CLG is just going to make him lazier and a worse player... the best thing for him would be to get him on an entirely new team but that's never going to happen. Best team for Jiji to go to would be TPA. On January 16 2013 04:31 zulu_nation8 wrote: there's no such a thing as having a pro's understanding of the game without being pro. Understanding comes from experience. Jatt doesn't play anymore and Kobe was last seen trolling 1800s or something at season 2's end. Any respectable high elo player with significant 5s experience should know more than those two. You can't understand what the team/player is thinking without having been in a similar situation. I don't disagree, but I don't think pro-level commentary is necessary or useful for a vast majority of the audience. The segment of the audience that actually understands the game at a level where pro-level commentary is useful and interesting is actually very small. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:30 Chrispy wrote: Jiji's a cool guy and I want to believe he's still got it in him but all these people saying that this will give him time to train - w0t? He's had the entire past two years to train. Being sub for CLG is just going to make him lazier and a worse player... the best thing for him would be to get him on an entirely new team but that's never going to happen. Well confidence is part of playing and if the people you play with have zero confidence in you and that starts to make you feel like you are bad then that effects your play. People are saying the subbing thing might help because he won't actively have his confidence destroyed by his own team. No real pressure aside from personal improvement. Also what Yango said. Playing with friends that believe in him might be the push he needs to regain his skill. Players always go through ups and downs. Having no support during your slump is an easy way to never come out of it. | ||
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Irave
United States9965 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:15 wei2coolman wrote: it's been more than a the last months, its been over an entire season. He's been disappointing all of S2, and even in S3. He did alright during ipl5 when he was playing anivia, but other than that his passive laning phase (but inability to farm as efficient as his passive playing mid peers), has been a crucial weakness. He has an alright champ pool, but all of them are fairly mediocre level.\ EDIT: actually think it was ipl4. not 5 He just didn't blend in very well with the new tryhard CLG. Their friendship kept them together during the times there was little to no tournaments. Now they want to be the best, because there is so much more going on. Jiji would do well on TSM, already better than Regi and they have the same mentality of CLG of old still. Fk it we got fans, making good money streaming. As the competition heats up, I expect TSM might even turn their roster upside down. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:31 zulu_nation8 wrote: there's no such a thing as having a pro's understanding of the game without being pro. Understanding comes from experience. Jatt doesn't play anymore and Kobe was last seen trolling 1800s or something at season 2's end. Any respectable high elo player with significant 5s experience should know more than those two. You can't understand what the team/player is thinking without having been in a similar situation. But you can still look at a pro player's decision making and have a good idea of why they made those decisions, even if you don't have the understanding to know to make that decision beforehand. You do have to be able to pick up on the decisions and extrapolate the reasons quickly and with an acceptable degree of accuracy. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:32 TheYango wrote: Best team for Jiji to go to would be TPA. I don't disagree, but I don't think pro-level commentary is necessary or useful for a vast majority of the audience. The segment of the audience that actually understands the game at a level where pro-level commentary is useful and interesting is actually very small. Pro level commentary can be extremely simple to understand. Decisions in league are 99% of the time very easily understood once transcribed. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
commentating at high level doesn't have to be difficult to explain; scarra casting is a pretty good example of relatively high level casting (higher than most lol casters), yet it's easy to consume for the audience. | ||
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