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On December 08 2012 10:47 Slow Motion wrote:
Doublelift is right in his assessment of him and Chauste (ok maybe a little too worshipful there but Chauster is very good), but he is either way too optimistic about the rest of his team or unwilling to say what he really thinks. Because if he thinks that the NA scene is such trash, the rest of his team might be even worse in some regards.
Yeah, I noticed how he avoided calling HSGG trash, but the point about how HSGG has the skill to kite ranged carries with melees is pretty interesting, as a way to compensate for lack of skill. Which is pretty true, there have been times where I see HSGG push the enemy AD carry COMPLETELY away from a fight, and still come back with majority of his health when returning back to main fights. He also avoided calling out jiji for his lame and weak laning phase, but tbh a lot of the questions were angled in such a way that he could avoid doing so without calling his team out on their weak play. DL has Chauster hero worship going on, but if you look at his skill level post-Curse, Liquid said that Chauster was able to make Doublelift into one of the best players in the world, something Liquid couldn't do while DL was on Curse.
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Hotshot gets a lot of flak but the one thing he can do is teamfight with tanks.
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Well for starters people should probably ignore trolls. But since this has become a major topic of this thread...
NA scene fucking blows. Doublelift is the only world class player in NA at the moment. NA's best support is Xpecial I guess who while good has plenty of Asian and European players who are better than him. NA's best AP mid player in the pro scene is probably Nyjacky?? Maybe? Either way, NA scene is miles behind Asia/EU on AP mids. Top lane NA is a joke, is the general consensus that Dyrus is still the best top laner? Regardless the fact that HotshotGG is still a relevant top laner in the NA scene shows how bad that lane is. Finally we come to jungle. Chauster is already top three in that regard and honestly on the right day he's probably better than saint or OddOne (whom I'd say are top two in NA). Junglers by and large is probably the NA scene's best role but that's mostly because there are so few good junglers in the scene.
It isn't just team play and team work, the NA scene lacks talent too. NA scene has one player whom you could consider top 5 in their role around the world. Maybe you could argue that saint, OddOne, or maybe Chauster are top 5 junglers in the world but it's not like either of those three are crazy impressive and I think it hints more to the fact that jungling is still not very developed in the pro scene.
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On December 08 2012 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 10:14 Drogenfahndung wrote:On December 08 2012 10:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:On December 08 2012 10:01 Drogenfahndung wrote:
I like how he condsiders himself and Chauster top be among the best botlanes in the world and the rest of na to be trash a bit arrgant for someone who cant even beat TSM. Don't you love it when people create accounts just to troll? Did u not hear the part where he basiclly calls every high elo na player bad and compares them to bronze league Starcraft 2 players and also says the na teams are to bad to practice against how im i trolling again? He compared solo queue to the bronze league. You created this account just to bash Doublelift and you didn't even understand his point. He said NA teams are bad to play against because NA lacks a depth of good teams, which is 100% empirically true. Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 10:42 Drogenfahndung wrote:
Thats why they lost bot vs Fnatic most of the games in IPL 5 right? I think you can blame jiji and loco for that one more than Doublelift. It's very obvious how good Doublelift is and it's a joke to think he's wrong for considering himself one of the best carries.
I think DLIFT is good, but he loses a lot of botlanes, and the reason sometimes CLG comes back is that he gets to AFK farm lanes without being punished by teams that don't see to know that that is about to happen, or don't know how to punish it.
Watch a game CLG NA loses. 80% chance Dlift gets caught 1v2-4 top or botlane multiple times.
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On December 08 2012 11:34 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:On December 08 2012 10:14 Drogenfahndung wrote:On December 08 2012 10:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:On December 08 2012 10:01 Drogenfahndung wrote:
I like how he condsiders himself and Chauster top be among the best botlanes in the world and the rest of na to be trash a bit arrgant for someone who cant even beat TSM. Don't you love it when people create accounts just to troll? Did u not hear the part where he basiclly calls every high elo na player bad and compares them to bronze league Starcraft 2 players and also says the na teams are to bad to practice against how im i trolling again? He compared solo queue to the bronze league. You created this account just to bash Doublelift and you didn't even understand his point. He said NA teams are bad to play against because NA lacks a depth of good teams, which is 100% empirically true. On December 08 2012 10:42 Drogenfahndung wrote:
Thats why they lost bot vs Fnatic most of the games in IPL 5 right? I think you can blame jiji and loco for that one more than Doublelift. It's very obvious how good Doublelift is and it's a joke to think he's wrong for considering himself one of the best carries. I think DLIFT is good, but he loses a lot of botlanes, and the reason sometimes CLG comes back is that he gets to AFK farm lanes without being punished by teams that don't see to know that that is about to happen, or don't know how to punish it. Watch a game CLG NA loses. 80% chance Dlift gets caught 1v2-4 top or botlane multiple times.
The thing that separates Dlift and Wx from every other AD carry is that they can lose botlane and still manage to stay even or ahead on CS against their counter part.
Watching CLG's tryouts of new supports has been pretty eye opening to this but even at LANs with Chauster where he'd get camped and they'd die a ton he'd still somehow manage to end lane phase with even CS (or sometimes ahead).
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On December 08 2012 11:40 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:34 cLutZ wrote:On December 08 2012 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:On December 08 2012 10:14 Drogenfahndung wrote:On December 08 2012 10:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:On December 08 2012 10:01 Drogenfahndung wrote:
I like how he condsiders himself and Chauster top be among the best botlanes in the world and the rest of na to be trash a bit arrgant for someone who cant even beat TSM. Don't you love it when people create accounts just to troll? Did u not hear the part where he basiclly calls every high elo na player bad and compares them to bronze league Starcraft 2 players and also says the na teams are to bad to practice against how im i trolling again? He compared solo queue to the bronze league. You created this account just to bash Doublelift and you didn't even understand his point. He said NA teams are bad to play against because NA lacks a depth of good teams, which is 100% empirically true. On December 08 2012 10:42 Drogenfahndung wrote:
Thats why they lost bot vs Fnatic most of the games in IPL 5 right? I think you can blame jiji and loco for that one more than Doublelift. It's very obvious how good Doublelift is and it's a joke to think he's wrong for considering himself one of the best carries. I think DLIFT is good, but he loses a lot of botlanes, and the reason sometimes CLG comes back is that he gets to AFK farm lanes without being punished by teams that don't see to know that that is about to happen, or don't know how to punish it. Watch a game CLG NA loses. 80% chance Dlift gets caught 1v2-4 top or botlane multiple times. The thing that separates Dlift and Wx from every other AD carry is that they can lose botlane and still manage to stay even or ahead on CS against their counter part. Watching CLG's tryouts of new supports has been pretty eye opening to this but even at LANs with Chauster where he'd get camped and they'd die a ton he'd still somehow manage to end lane phase with even CS (or sometimes ahead).
IMO, it is just as much about the rest of his team, as it is DLift though. CLG NA's big strength is distracting the other team with meaningless hotshotGG chases around the map and generalized annoyances in 3v4, 4v5 situations while Dlift is away doing nothing but getting huge. Fnatic and M5 both basically assassinated Dlift when he tried to do that after game 1 of the series.
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No, it's not about him being big late game. It's about at 20 minutes when lane phase is over. Doesn't matter how many times he or his support died in lane. Doesn't matter how hard he was camped. He still manages to end the lane phase with even CS to his counter part and sometimes he'll lose bot lane and still come out ahead on CS.
This is only due to the fact that mechanically he's really good at CSing and it's not like he sacrifices lane dominance for CS like some AP and AD carries do, he tends to balance harass with CSing well too. Him getting caught is a problem for sure but it's an issue with his game/map sense not his mechanical skill. I don't think anyone would say Doublelift is a player known for good decision making but because he plays AD carry his questionable game sense is masked by his really impressive mechanics.
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Even in CS and even in Gold are different. Only the second part matters (also EXP).
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On December 08 2012 11:34 overt wrote:
Well for starters people should probably ignore trolls. But since this has become a major topic of this thread...
NA scene fucking blows. Doublelift is the only world class player in NA at the moment. NA's best support is Xpecial I guess who while good has plenty of Asian and European players who are better than him. NA's best AP mid player in the pro scene is probably Nyjacky?? Maybe? Either way, NA scene is miles behind Asia/EU on AP mids. Top lane NA is a joke, is the general consensus that Dyrus is still the best top laner? Regardless the fact that HotshotGG is still a relevant top laner in the NA scene shows how bad that lane is. Finally we come to jungle. Chauster is already top three in that regard and honestly on the right day he's probably better than saint or OddOne (whom I'd say are top two in NA). Junglers by and large is probably the NA scene's best role but that's mostly because there are so few good junglers in the scene.
It isn't just team play and team work, the NA scene lacks talent too. NA scene has one player whom you could consider top 5 in their role around the world. Maybe you could argue that saint, OddOne, or maybe Chauster are top 5 junglers in the world but it's not like either of those three are crazy impressive and I think it hints more to the fact that jungling is still not very developed in the pro scene.
This is who I think is best in NA for each role.
Top:WoDx, and Dyrus.
Mid: Nyjacky, Link115(but, it's been said he won't be in pro scene anymore, due to college, and parents don't want him doing it)
Jungle: St.V, Chauster, TOO
Botlane: DL, qtpie, aphromoo
Support: Chauster, Xpecial, Nhat.
Of these, names, only jungling position, and DL, are comparable to international scene. Supposed Link115 has the ability to be best player ever (according to St.V and DL), but he doesn't have time to practice, or join full time team.
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I feel like this may have been overlooked with everyone talking about Doublelift's play at IPL5, but jiji played pretty damn well in that tournament.
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It's weird though that he finds korean junglers similar in level to na junglers. I thought everyone agreed lilballz is miles ahead of na/eu junglers due to how well he transitions from camps to ganks. He has no downtime. Also korean teams are really good at allocating farm properly to get a big item or farm up a certain player, so end result is the entire team uses farm better too so they end up witg decently farmed junglers, like saint would be except with a ton of pressure having been put on the map.
And I still thought that korean AD's were te best? DL + chau definitely were around the same level as korean bot lanes, but I can't say for certain if either is "better" than the other.
I love how he's so nice and sweet about hotshot's jungling though lol.
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hahaha "HotshotGG's strength" "Well ... he signs my paychecks?"
Also Doublelift never playing Weixiao makes sense. It's because...
he is Weixiao.
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On December 08 2012 15:10 BlackPaladin wrote:
It's weird though that he finds korean junglers similar in level to na junglers. I thought everyone agreed lilballz is miles ahead of na/eu junglers due to how well he transitions from camps to ganks. He has no downtime. Also korean teams are really good at allocating farm properly to get a big item or farm up a certain player, so end result is the entire team uses farm better too so they end up witg decently farmed junglers, like saint would be except with a ton of pressure having been put on the map.
And I still thought that korean AD's were te best? DL + chau definitely were around the same level as korean bot lanes, but I can't say for certain if either is "better" than the other.
I love how he's so nice and sweet about hotshot's jungling though lol.
Well lilballz is Taiwanese, and he was played on NA servers back in beta, so imo I consider him NA jungler pretty much. He was also surprisingly underwhelming in ipl5, often feeding his oracles early on. I can't think of super strong Korean jungler except maybe Cloud Templar.
Korean botlanes are good because of support, they have god-tier level supports, I personally don't see anything special about their adc. Capt Jack gets a lot of rep, but his laning phase is pretty poor, especially in extended 2v2 lanes. His teamfighting is pretty good, but his laning phase is pretty atrocious, that's why he looks good (his team plays low econ game, so laning phase ends very early, and they play the 2v1 lane, so his weakness doesn't show up). Overall Korean teams real strengths are their toplanes by far, they carry through their top lanes.
WX~Bebe~DL, around the same in terms of AD carry, probably giving the edge to WX.
On December 08 2012 15:16 KissBlade wrote:
hahaha "HotshotGG's strength" "Well ... he signs my paychecks?"
Also Doublelift never playing Weixiao makes sense. It's because...
he is Weixiao.
LoL client can't handle that amount of mechanical skills.
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The Voyboy/Basketball conversation was so spot on. It will never be optimal to have 5 1v1 stars on a team.
EDIT: Hotshot is a very important player on the team. Even if his carry potential is low, you basically need a player that can absorb counters and bans or initiate a 2v1 lane in this game. If you have a star carry but needs perfect resources/attention/space to shine, but is useless otherwise its basically a liability.
As a follow-up, I am not sure if its an unpopular opinion but Stanley is the most amazing component of TPA because of his play making/carrying relative to his team resource usage demand. The efficiency of his output is stellar and is what in my opinion won them the WC not Toyz.
I've played so many, MANY solo queue games with mid or top lanes that have been behind all game, but end up getting farmed regardless because of GP5 or objectives. But mentally from dying a lot are too afraid/scared to do their job, much less make plays, it makes me really respect players that can play well from bad positions.
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On December 08 2012 15:18 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 15:10 BlackPaladin wrote:
It's weird though that he finds korean junglers similar in level to na junglers. I thought everyone agreed lilballz is miles ahead of na/eu junglers due to how well he transitions from camps to ganks. He has no downtime. Also korean teams are really good at allocating farm properly to get a big item or farm up a certain player, so end result is the entire team uses farm better too so they end up witg decently farmed junglers, like saint would be except with a ton of pressure having been put on the map.
And I still thought that korean AD's were te best? DL + chau definitely were around the same level as korean bot lanes, but I can't say for certain if either is "better" than the other.
I love how he's so nice and sweet about hotshot's jungling though lol. Well lilballz is Taiwanese, and he was played on NA servers back in beta, so imo I consider him NA jungler pretty much. He was also surprisingly underwhelming in ipl5, often feeding his oracles early on. I can't think of super strong Korean jungler except maybe Cloud Templar. Korean botlanes are good because of support, they have god-tier level supports, I personally don't see anything special about their adc. Capt Jack gets a lot of rep, but his laning phase is pretty poor, especially in extended 2v2 lanes. His teamfighting is pretty good, but his laning phase is pretty atrocious, that's why he looks good (his team plays low econ game, so laning phase ends very early, and they play the 2v1 lane, so his weakness doesn't show up). Overall Korean teams real strengths are their toplanes by far, they carry through their top lanes. WX~Bebe~DL, around the same in terms of AD carry, probably giving the edge to WX. Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 15:16 KissBlade wrote:
hahaha "HotshotGG's strength" "Well ... he signs my paychecks?"
Also Doublelift never playing Weixiao makes sense. It's because...
he is Weixiao. LoL client can't handle that amount of mechanical skills.
Lilballz basically invented Udyr jungle at one point in his NA career.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 08 2012 12:09 overt wrote:
No, it's not about him being big late game. It's about at 20 minutes when lane phase is over. Doesn't matter how many times he or his support died in lane. Doesn't matter how hard he was camped. He still manages to end the lane phase with even CS to his counter part and sometimes he'll lose bot lane and still come out ahead on CS.
This is only due to the fact that mechanically he's really good at CSing and it's not like he sacrifices lane dominance for CS like some AP and AD carries do, he tends to balance harass with CSing well too. Him getting caught is a problem for sure but it's an issue with his game/map sense not his mechanical skill. I don't think anyone would say Doublelift is a player known for good decision making but because he plays AD carry his questionable game sense is masked by his really impressive mechanics.
lol lasthitting past the point where someone has like 100 AD is pretty much not "mechanical skill" anymore. It's all about map movement and creating space at that point.
Plus, I wouldn't consider it impressive that he's mechanically better than his counterparts at lasthitting. Given that many of his counterpart ADs are the types who fall behind 20+ CS in total freefarm lanes for no apparent reason.
On December 08 2012 15:18 wei2coolman wrote:
Well lilballz is Taiwanese, and he was played on NA servers back in beta, so imo I consider him NA jungler pretty much. He was also surprisingly underwhelming in ipl5, often feeding his oracles early on. I can't think of super strong Korean jungler except maybe Cloud Templar.
MVP White's Dandy
On December 08 2012 15:18 wei2coolman wrote:
Korean botlanes are good because of support, they have god-tier level supports, I personally don't see anything special about their adc. Capt Jack gets a lot of rep, but his laning phase is pretty poor, especially in extended 2v2 lanes. His teamfighting is pretty good, but his laning phase is pretty atrocious, that's why he looks good (his team plays low econ game, so laning phase ends very early, and they play the 2v1 lane, so his weakness doesn't show up). Overall Korean teams real strengths are their toplanes by far, they carry through their top lanes.
WX~Bebe~DL, around the same in terms of AD carry, probably giving the edge to WX.
In general, I would rank Chinese ADs as having the best average skill in the world. There are a number of fairly good ADs among the less visible Chinese teams that have nonetheless shown themselves to be very strong (iG's Kid, Royal's Uzi, Wayi Spider's BSYY--Uzi has the potential to be in the Weixiao/Bebe/DLift class of ADs once he gets more experienced, and Kid and BSYY are a level below those 3, but still better than ADs in the rest of the world).
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United States47024 Posts
On December 08 2012 15:32 Pathos wrote:
As a follow-up, I am not sure if its an unpopular opinion but Stanley is the most amazing component of TPA because of his play making/carrying relative to his team resource usage demand. The efficiency of his output is stellar and is what in my opinion won them the WC not Toyz.
Lilballz.
Toyz and Stanley got overrated at Worlds because by and large they got to pick into their comfort zone, which actually far overstates their actual ability. Both players have fairly defined champ types that they're comfortable in and almost never stray from them. Toyz' weakness on aggressive, gank-oriented mid laners became readily apparent at IPL 5, but Stanley's champ pool actually shows similar limitations (e.g. you will never see Stanley play many of the 3rd position defensive team-utility top laners like Cho'gath or Malphite--only really Shen, and even his Shen isn't terribly spectacular). It is also worth noting that among the "world-class" top laners, Stanley is the worst I have seen at adapting to 1v2 lanes. Even in extraordinarily stompy GPL games, I've seen Stanley feed from 1v2 lanes because he misjudges how strong he is with 1v2 levels/farm.
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United States37500 Posts
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United States47024 Posts
It's not as bad, but it's still fairly apparent, IMO.
That said, it's true to some extent for every player in the game. I guess the only thing you can really blame Stanley for is how poorly he adapts to 1v2s compared to other top caliber top laners like Maknoon, Caomei, or Lilac. That has burned TPA on multiple occasions.
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EPT
