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United States47024 Posts
On November 14 2012 09:27 Badboyrune wrote:
I don't really see the point of giving supports more gold. Half the point of playing support to me is doing as much as possible with as little as possible.
What would most likely happen, in pro games at least, if supports get more money is that people are going to spend even more money on wards unless the bring in more good aura items like aegis, zekes and shurelias.
In soloq games people who go support are probably just going to think oh i have money now i can build damage and go deathcap on every support.
The thing is, giving support more gold doesn't actually change their farm PRIORITY so it doesn't change anything. Right now, it's optimal for supports to get a couple waves here and there anyway in a game to bolster their gold/levels. If you just add more gold sources to the game, people will just shift that farm away from supports because you haven't created a reason for supports to get more gold, you've just given them gold which can be passed on to other champs through farm reallocation.
If you want supports to get more gold, you have to incentivize them to get more gold--give them more things to spend gold ON. And if those are influential enough, then people will give supports the farm to get those items. Just handing supports more gold with no incentive on which to make it compelling just shifts their farm priority over more permeable gold sources to other champs in the game.
DotA actually makes support income functional without ANY of these alternative income sources. Supports get their items through plain-and-simple farming creeps. This works because there's enough incentive to buy support items. You don't need any of these contrived gold generation mechanisms if your itemization encourages supports getting to farm.
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On November 14 2012 09:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 09:27 Badboyrune wrote:
I don't really see the point of giving supports more gold. Half the point of playing support to me is doing as much as possible with as little as possible.
What would most likely happen, in pro games at least, if supports get more money is that people are going to spend even more money on wards unless the bring in more good aura items like aegis, zekes and shurelias.
In soloq games people who go support are probably just going to think oh i have money now i can build damage and go deathcap on every support. The thing is, giving support more gold doesn't actually change their farm PRIORITY so it doesn't change anything. Right now, it's optimal for supports to get a couple waves here and there anyway in a game to bolster their gold/levels. If you just add more gold sources to the game, people will just shift that farm away from supports because you haven't created a reason for supports to get more gold, you've just given them gold which can be passed on to other champs through farm reallocation. If you want supports to get more gold, you have to incentivize them to get more gold--give them more things to spend gold ON. And if those are influential enough, then people will give supports the farm to get those items. Just handing supports more gold with no incentive on which to make it compelling just shifts their farm priority over more permeable gold sources to other champs in the game. DotA actually makes support income functional without ANY of these alternative income sources. Supports get their items through plain-and-simple farming creeps. This works because there's enough incentive to buy support items. You don't need any of these contrived gold generation mechanisms if your itemization encourages supports getting to farm.
DotA also has a lot more items to consider. And is also a different game. And also has no bearing on LoL.
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An interesting bit of math. The break-even point for maxing W second versus E for Zed (assuming laning) during a single target assassination is 122 Bonus AD. This is assuming R+W->Q(2xShadow)+E+Auto->gtfo (120 base damage / 4.9 ratio / 20% = 122).
This makes me wonder whether the utility of increased energy restoration and W frequency is better for Zed than stronger slows and greater sustained/AoE damage on E. I don't have enough practical experience at this point to make a judgement.
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Holy crap ranked is a cesspool right now. Have people picking champs they have no right to be playing, have people boasting that they were gold when a quick check on lolking shows a pretty obvious boost, Started first game off badly too, riot client crashed, loaded 4 minutes in against darius. Needless to say I lost, but somehow I still outleveled and outcs'd our mid??
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On November 14 2012 09:30 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 09:16 Dusty wrote:
I called the new champ op and everyone called me stupid. now everyone is calling him op. the next part is where everyone finds out he's actually bad and i look like a retard To be fair, I don't think it's possible for him to be bad without significant nerfs. He's an energy champion with ranged harass, strong wave clear, slows, gap closers/escapes and a strong assassination ultimate. His primary weakness is a lack of sustain, but when you can farm endlessly at range anyway that's not a big deal. Anyone who thought he wouldn't be strong was probably operating under the assumption that Riot would nerf him on the PBE more than they did.
I agree, though i'm just low ELO.
From what i learned, he is very safe due to his energy based ranged farming, his AoE and his escape with W. His W can even be used over walls which already helped me steal a dragon without ever getting into danger.
His lack of sustain is a small problem but with some lifesteal it's not too bad, with good shadow use you can prevent a lot of damage.
His harass appears to be extremely good, he can even poke opponents under tower without getting hit. You just send your shadow in, Q->E and force the enemy to farm from behind his tower.
However, he doesn't seem to be a great duelist. He has nice burst but he needs his ult to really do damage. His sustained damage is relatively weak, he needs to harass until he gets an advantage before he can strike.
In teamfights he can blow up AD Carrys easily though getting out after that is tricky, i think it's best to wait a little before you dive in.
What i'm really not sure about is his itemization. I tried going with 2*dblade->brutalizer->BT but that left him too squishy. I tried 2*dblade->brutalizer->phage but then he didn't do enough damage.
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On November 14 2012 10:06 Amui wrote:
Holy crap ranked is a cesspool right now. Have people picking champs they have no right to be playing, have people boasting that they were gold when a quick check on lolking shows a pretty obvious boost, Started first game off badly too, riot client crashed, loaded 4 minutes in against darius. Needless to say I lost, but somehow I still outleveled and outcs'd our mid??
QQ thread that way -->
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United States47024 Posts
On November 14 2012 09:55 Zdrastochye wrote:
DotA also has a lot more items to consider. And is also a different game. And also has no bearing on LoL.
I think it's stupid for two games in the same genre to not learn from the design success and failures of one another. Icefrog's certainly paid attention in the other direction.
DotA's support income/itemization has more or less reached the point that LoL should strive for--where there's no nonsense to supports getting gold. No gp10, no weird masteries that give you free gold in convoluted scenarios--just support farm being important enough to let supports farm.
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United States37500 Posts
On November 14 2012 10:06 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 10:06 Amui wrote:
Holy crap ranked is a cesspool right now. Have people picking champs they have no right to be playing, have people boasting that they were gold when a quick check on lolking shows a pretty obvious boost, Started first game off badly too, riot client crashed, loaded 4 minutes in against darius. Needless to say I lost, but somehow I still outleveled and outcs'd our mid?? QQ thread that way -->
This Craton speaks the truth.
Pre-Season is probably not going to be too fun. But don't QQ in GD. Thanks.
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Tiamat rework and upgrade detailed
http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=921272
Tiamat
(Melee Only)
+50 Attack Damage
+15 Health Regen per 5 seconds
UNIQUE Passive – Cleave: Your attacks deal up to 60% of your Attack Damage to units around your target – decaying down to 20% near the edge.
UNIQUE Active – Crescent: Deals up to 100% of your Attack Damage to units around you – decaying down to 60% near the edge – 10 second cooldown.
Upgrade
+ Show Spoiler +Ravenous Hydra
(Melee Only)
+75 Attack Damage
+15 Health Regen per 5 seconds
+10% Life Steal
Passive: Damage dealt by this item works with Life Steal.
UNIQUE Passive – Cleave: Your attacks deal up to 60% of your Attack Damage to units around your target – decaying down to 20% near the edge.
UNIQUE Active – Crescent: Deals up to 100% of your Attack Damage to units around you – decaying down to 60% near the edge – 10 second cooldown.
But wait! I’m a Ranged Carry type of player. What do I get in order to do AoE damage?
Stay Tuned.
-Xypherous
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On November 14 2012 10:06 Amui wrote:
Holy crap ranked is a cesspool right now. Have people picking champs they have no right to be playing, have people boasting that they were gold when a quick check on lolking shows a pretty obvious boost, Started first game off badly too, riot client crashed, loaded 4 minutes in against darius. Needless to say I lost, but somehow I still outleveled and outcs'd our mid??
I was accused of being boosted recently as well according to LoLKing. Don't believe everything just because of a graph.
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On November 14 2012 10:12 nojitosunrise wrote:Tiamat rework and upgrade detailed http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=921272Show nested quote +Tiamat
(Melee Only)
+50 Attack Damage
+15 Health Regen per 5 seconds
UNIQUE Passive – Cleave: Your attacks deal up to 60% of your Attack Damage to units around your target – decaying down to 20% near the edge.
UNIQUE Active – Crescent: Deals up to 100% of your Attack Damage to units around you – decaying down to 60% near the edge – 10 second cooldown. Upgrade + Show Spoiler +Ravenous Hydra
(Melee Only)
+75 Attack Damage
+15 Health Regen per 5 seconds
+10% Life Steal
Passive: Damage dealt by this item works with Life Steal.
UNIQUE Passive – Cleave: Your attacks deal up to 60% of your Attack Damage to units around your target – decaying down to 20% near the edge.
UNIQUE Active – Crescent: Deals up to 100% of your Attack Damage to units around you – decaying down to 60% near the edge – 10 second cooldown. Show nested quote +But wait! I’m a Ranged Carry type of player. What do I get in order to do AoE damage?
Stay Tuned.
-Xypherous
Seems like a lot of the new items are good.
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On November 14 2012 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 08:44 SwizzY wrote:
Do you guys know if doing tribunal still gives free IP?
Sure the whole judgement ELO is cool and all but I would still like the free couple hundred IP for banning tards It doesnt give IP anymore.
Dunno if it's a callous question, but what the heck is the point of tribunal elo? Any future benefits? Sorry if this information is collected somewhere, I'm just a big noob.
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On November 14 2012 10:16 SwizzY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 14 2012 08:44 SwizzY wrote:
Do you guys know if doing tribunal still gives free IP?
Sure the whole judgement ELO is cool and all but I would still like the free couple hundred IP for banning tards It doesnt give IP anymore. Dunno if it's a callous question, but what the heck is the point of tribunal elo? Any future benefits? Sorry if this information is collected somewhere, I'm just a big noob.
It's probably like Honor, or Reddit karma. Fooling people into doing something for nothing.
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On November 14 2012 10:12 nojitosunrise wrote:Tiamat rework and upgrade detailed http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=921272Show nested quote +Tiamat
(Melee Only)
+50 Attack Damage
+15 Health Regen per 5 seconds
UNIQUE Passive – Cleave: Your attacks deal up to 60% of your Attack Damage to units around your target – decaying down to 20% near the edge.
UNIQUE Active – Crescent: Deals up to 100% of your Attack Damage to units around you – decaying down to 60% near the edge – 10 second cooldown. Upgrade + Show Spoiler +Ravenous Hydra
(Melee Only)
+75 Attack Damage
+15 Health Regen per 5 seconds
+10% Life Steal
Passive: Damage dealt by this item works with Life Steal.
UNIQUE Passive – Cleave: Your attacks deal up to 60% of your Attack Damage to units around your target – decaying down to 20% near the edge.
UNIQUE Active – Crescent: Deals up to 100% of your Attack Damage to units around you – decaying down to 60% near the edge – 10 second cooldown. Show nested quote +But wait! I’m a Ranged Carry type of player. What do I get in order to do AoE damage?
Stay Tuned.
-Xypherous
Aww, why did they have to make the passive unique. It isn't like anyone would ever stack them in a real game.
This just means you can't troll in-house games by Tiamat stacking on GP or Shyv.
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United States47024 Posts
Now the most awkward thing about Tiamat is that virtually all the melees that actually need AoE clearing power have better AS/onhit synergy than plain AD (e.g. Warwick and Shen have absolutely zero desire to buy plain AD over onhits and Triforce). The fact that Tiamat uses your AD and not the physical damage dealt also means it has no interaction with Triforce, which is the more likely damage item choice for many of those champs.
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On November 14 2012 09:57 Seuss wrote:
An interesting bit of math. The break-even point for maxing W second versus E for Zed (assuming laning) during a single target assassination is 122 Bonus AD. This is assuming R+W->Q(2xShadow)+E+Auto->gtfo (120 base damage / 4.9 ratio / 20% = 122).
This makes me wonder whether the utility of increased energy restoration and W frequency is better for Zed than stronger slows and greater sustained/AoE damage on E. I don't have enough practical experience at this point to make a judgement.
it's not really relevant to your math, but hitting a third Q with double shadow doesn't do damage, only the first two do
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On November 14 2012 10:19 TheYango wrote:
Now the most awkward thing about Tiamat is that virtually all the melees that actually need AoE clearing power have better AS/onhit synergy than plain AD (e.g. Warwick and Shen have absolutely zero desire to buy plain AD over onhits and Triforce). The fact that Tiamat uses your AD and not the physical damage dealt also means it has no interaction with Triforce, which is the more likely damage item choice for many of those champs.
Might be awesome on Gangplank and Fiora finally though.
I really really want Tiamat to be a core Fiora item, it would make her ult so cool.
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Merry Christmas Tiger udyr. Welcome back to the jungle.
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... did Xypherous just reference Caller with the Tiamat Tuesday?
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EPT
