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On November 10 2012 06:33 TheKefka wrote:
What I don't understand is what makes them think making the large monsters have more damage and HP at camps will be worse for aoe-clearers.
Aoe clearers DO amazing single target damage in the jungle,it's just that along with it they hit everything around them as well.As long as the camps have multiple creeps aoe junglers are always going to be better.
Only way they can make ww a better jungler than udyr is if they make creeps do retarded amounts of damage and it isn't anymore about aoe or single target it's just about sustain at that point,which would make even more junglers obsolete than as it is now.
It doesn't really make AOE-clearers worse, it makes single target clearers better, which is their main goal.
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On November 10 2012 06:38 Steelavocado wrote:
I main Jungle Yi and I can safely say awwwwwwwwwwww yeah!
Don't see what will change for yi here.
He's still going to be the wheel of fortune of jungling.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 10 2012 06:38 beefhamburger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:33 TheKefka wrote:
What I don't understand is what makes them think making the large monsters have more damage and HP at camps will be worse for aoe-clearers.
Aoe clearers DO amazing single target damage in the jungle,it's just that along with it they hit everything around them as well.As long as the camps have multiple creeps aoe junglers are always going to be better.
Only way they can make ww a better jungler than udyr is if they make creeps do retarded amounts of damage and it isn't anymore about aoe or single target it's just about sustain at that point,which would make even more junglers obsolete than as it is now. It doesn't really make AOE-clearers worse, it makes single target clearers better, which is their main goal.
It doesn't make the single-target clearers better though. Single-target clearers' ability to clear is dictated by the total HP of the camp, because they still can only hit one thing at a time. If the big wraith has 400 HP, and the small wraiths have 100, it takes the same time to clear if you shift 50 HP off the small wraiths and add 150 to the big wraith.
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On November 10 2012 06:38 beefhamburger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:33 TheKefka wrote:
What I don't understand is what makes them think making the large monsters have more damage and HP at camps will be worse for aoe-clearers.
Aoe clearers DO amazing single target damage in the jungle,it's just that along with it they hit everything around them as well.As long as the camps have multiple creeps aoe junglers are always going to be better.
Only way they can make ww a better jungler than udyr is if they make creeps do retarded amounts of damage and it isn't anymore about aoe or single target it's just about sustain at that point,which would make even more junglers obsolete than as it is now. It doesn't really make AOE-clearers worse, it makes single target clearers better, which is their main goal.
So what they are going to make it so you can 2hit a small minion with a lvl 1 auto lol?
You do realize this will make the clear speed of aoe junglers even faster?
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So lategame poppy has to be absolutely most ridiculous thing ever imagined. Once late game comes around she 1v5's in a way that no other champion can.
Flat MR is significantly better in any lane that has poke/allin potential. You'd literally have to be running vayne soraka for flat MR to not be worth it. Especially since lanes often get decided pre-6 by your trading ability.
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I really don't like the direction they seem to want to go with Jungling.
It seems more like they want Jungling to be more like "HOW FAST CAN I OUTFARM THE ENEMY JUNGLER" rather than "How can I show my skill in map reading and be in the right place at the right time to swing the balance of the game in my favor"
It looks dumb.
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I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing. It looks like the choice to gank/assist a lane has a higher opportunity cost now than it does now. The jungle is worth more and takes more effort. Someone wiser can correct me of course 
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On November 10 2012 06:42 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:38 beefhamburger wrote:On November 10 2012 06:33 TheKefka wrote:
What I don't understand is what makes them think making the large monsters have more damage and HP at camps will be worse for aoe-clearers.
Aoe clearers DO amazing single target damage in the jungle,it's just that along with it they hit everything around them as well.As long as the camps have multiple creeps aoe junglers are always going to be better.
Only way they can make ww a better jungler than udyr is if they make creeps do retarded amounts of damage and it isn't anymore about aoe or single target it's just about sustain at that point,which would make even more junglers obsolete than as it is now. It doesn't really make AOE-clearers worse, it makes single target clearers better, which is their main goal. So what they are going to make it so you can 2hit a small minion with a lvl 1 auto lol? You do realize this will make the clear speed of aoe junglers even faster?
Its almost like they don't realize that AoE clear or single target, early early jungling is mostly auto attacks regardless.
On November 10 2012 06:45 mordek wrote:I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing. It looks like the choice to gank/assist a lane has a higher opportunity cost now than it does now. The jungle is worth more and takes more effort. Someone wiser can correct me of course
What it looks like is that the choice to Gank/Assist lane is now going to be worth less than clearing the jungle unless you walk away with a kill, or an assist plus a lane tax.
Riot seems to want to make Carry Junglers more viable again by increasing the gold stream in the jungle at the expense of making the jungler unable to try and help the lanes without falling behind. The problem is that unless the gold stream in the jungle is actually HIGHER than the gold stream in the lanes (which would be really stupid) the Carry Junglers will still be unable to do much as they will not only still be behind on gold, but also forced into these ridiculous niche jungle items that put them even further behind laners.
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It'll still involve reading the map, the skill will just be in determining the payoff. Like the people that dive 3 creep waves to get one kill. Sure looks good on your score, but probably isn't the right call. Sure you can gank constantly, but maybe you need to put more focus in on farm/counter jungle because jungle GP just finished farming his 6 item build.
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United States47024 Posts
I just realized something--Seraph's Embrace doesn't have the Mana Charge ability. It converts the 750 charged mana from Archangel into true +mana.
Which means that after you charge an Archangel, you can gain mana from another Tear.
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Firstly, we are going to reduce the emphasis on area-of-effect damage dealers by re-balancing more of the health and damage into the large monster in each of the camps. This allows single-target damage dealers such as Gangplank to have more competitive clear times.
So... "more competitive" single target junglers means "make the AoE junglers slower so their clear time aren't that far from each other".
...
Ah, fuck it. I need to stop myself from looking at it, I don't even manage to feel like a negative Nancy when I'm saying I'll probably hate those changes and that they'll likely make the game duller. Switch brain off, wait for facts.
Edit@Yango: yeap, Xypherous confirmed it in a post on the Tear's thread.
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On November 10 2012 06:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:38 beefhamburger wrote:On November 10 2012 06:33 TheKefka wrote:
What I don't understand is what makes them think making the large monsters have more damage and HP at camps will be worse for aoe-clearers.
Aoe clearers DO amazing single target damage in the jungle,it's just that along with it they hit everything around them as well.As long as the camps have multiple creeps aoe junglers are always going to be better.
Only way they can make ww a better jungler than udyr is if they make creeps do retarded amounts of damage and it isn't anymore about aoe or single target it's just about sustain at that point,which would make even more junglers obsolete than as it is now. It doesn't really make AOE-clearers worse, it makes single target clearers better, which is their main goal. It doesn't make the single-target clearers better though. Single-target clearers' ability to clear is dictated by the total HP of the camp, because they still can only hit one thing at a time. If the big wraith has 400 HP, and the small wraiths have 100, it takes the same time to clear if you shift 50 HP off the small wraiths and add 150 to the big wraith.
My thought was that most clearers have a single target ability that they use once, maybe twice, when clearing a camp. The less rotations they need to use it on the big creep, the faster, instead of needing to use it for the smaller creeps which you can auto.
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I mean if they suddenly relocate 50-100 HP form a small wolf/wraith to the big one than I'm happy as fuck as a udyr coz they'll just drop dead while I'm autoing the big one in phoenix stance.
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On November 10 2012 06:47 TheYango wrote:I just realized something--Seraph's Embrace doesn't have the Mana Charge ability. It converts the 750 charged mana from Archangel into true +mana. Which means that after you charge an Archangel, you can gain mana from another Tear.
but the 3% mana to AP is unique.
But hello 60 minute ryze with double charged tear.
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On November 10 2012 06:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:42 TheKefka wrote:On November 10 2012 06:38 beefhamburger wrote:On November 10 2012 06:33 TheKefka wrote:
What I don't understand is what makes them think making the large monsters have more damage and HP at camps will be worse for aoe-clearers.
Aoe clearers DO amazing single target damage in the jungle,it's just that along with it they hit everything around them as well.As long as the camps have multiple creeps aoe junglers are always going to be better.
Only way they can make ww a better jungler than udyr is if they make creeps do retarded amounts of damage and it isn't anymore about aoe or single target it's just about sustain at that point,which would make even more junglers obsolete than as it is now. It doesn't really make AOE-clearers worse, it makes single target clearers better, which is their main goal. So what they are going to make it so you can 2hit a small minion with a lvl 1 auto lol? You do realize this will make the clear speed of aoe junglers even faster? Its almost like they don't realize that AoE clear or single target, early early jungling is mostly auto attacks regardless. Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:45 mordek wrote:I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing. It looks like the choice to gank/assist a lane has a higher opportunity cost now than it does now. The jungle is worth more and takes more effort. Someone wiser can correct me of course What it looks like is that the choice to Gank/Assist lane is now going to be worth less than clearing the jungle unless you walk away with a kill, or an assist plus a lane tax. Riot seems to want to make Carry Junglers more viable again by increasing the gold stream in the jungle at the expense of making the jungler unable to try and help the lanes without falling behind. The problem is that unless the gold stream in the jungle is actually HIGHER than the gold stream in the lanes (which would be really stupid) the Carry Junglers will still be unable to do much as they will not only still be behind on gold, but also forced into these ridiculous niche jungle items that put them even further behind laners.
We're saying the same thing: camping/ganking/assisting worth less = higher opportunity cost. However, a successful gank top can change the lane. With really fast aoe clearers, they could clear everything and still gank. Now the choice will be harder.
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United States23745 Posts
Yeah, I think we need to wait for some numbers before we claim Riot has ruined the game. I know people are worried it's going to make the game boring, but I think the idea of having to trade off between ganking/farming an interesting one. Now it's "gank gank gank" all the time unless all of your lanes are pushed.
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Knowing Riot's record, everything will be broken for the first ~2-3 weeks and then modified in some way to make it better.
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On November 10 2012 06:54 mordek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:On November 10 2012 06:42 TheKefka wrote:On November 10 2012 06:38 beefhamburger wrote:On November 10 2012 06:33 TheKefka wrote:
What I don't understand is what makes them think making the large monsters have more damage and HP at camps will be worse for aoe-clearers.
Aoe clearers DO amazing single target damage in the jungle,it's just that along with it they hit everything around them as well.As long as the camps have multiple creeps aoe junglers are always going to be better.
Only way they can make ww a better jungler than udyr is if they make creeps do retarded amounts of damage and it isn't anymore about aoe or single target it's just about sustain at that point,which would make even more junglers obsolete than as it is now. It doesn't really make AOE-clearers worse, it makes single target clearers better, which is their main goal. So what they are going to make it so you can 2hit a small minion with a lvl 1 auto lol? You do realize this will make the clear speed of aoe junglers even faster? Its almost like they don't realize that AoE clear or single target, early early jungling is mostly auto attacks regardless. On November 10 2012 06:45 mordek wrote:I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing. It looks like the choice to gank/assist a lane has a higher opportunity cost now than it does now. The jungle is worth more and takes more effort. Someone wiser can correct me of course What it looks like is that the choice to Gank/Assist lane is now going to be worth less than clearing the jungle unless you walk away with a kill, or an assist plus a lane tax. Riot seems to want to make Carry Junglers more viable again by increasing the gold stream in the jungle at the expense of making the jungler unable to try and help the lanes without falling behind. The problem is that unless the gold stream in the jungle is actually HIGHER than the gold stream in the lanes (which would be really stupid) the Carry Junglers will still be unable to do much as they will not only still be behind on gold, but also forced into these ridiculous niche jungle items that put them even further behind laners. We're saying the same thing: camping/ganking/assisting worth less = higher opportunity cost. However, a successful gank top can change the lane. With really fast aoe clearers, they could clear everything and still gank. Now the choice will be harder.
Welcome to the new Solo Queue jungling experience
"WTF MAN WHY YOU NO GANK. YOU SNOWBALL MY LANE I CARRY YOU! YOU DONT NEED FARM"
"REPORT JUNGLER ALWAYS FARM, NO GANKS"
*sigh*
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United States47024 Posts
On November 10 2012 06:54 onlywonderboy wrote:
Yeah, I think we need to wait for some numbers before we claim Riot has ruined the game. I know people are worried it's going to make the game boring, but I think the idea of having to trade off between ganking/farming an interesting one. Now it's "gank gank gank" all the time unless all of your lanes are pushed.
No it's not.
The most successful junglers in competitive play as of late have been the ones to balance farming/jungling. Some of them are deliberately fairly passive and farm-y when the game tempo calls for it. At Worlds and subsequent events, the most successful junglers have been the ones that move around a lot and protect their own tempo (Lilballz, CloudTemplar, Diamondprox), while the ones that were overly gank-focused or camped too hard are the ones that people criticized for not having enough impact on the game overall (Hotshot, Araneae, Illusion, Snoopeh to a lesser extent).
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If ganking was everything Illusion would be best jungler in the world.
That guy doesn't even farm he just leeches lane xp lol.
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EPT
