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On November 02 2012 04:26 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 04:22 TheYango wrote:On November 02 2012 04:00 SidianTheBard wrote:On November 02 2012 03:55 jadoth wrote:
Any one care to give me a primer on support zyra. I play her mid a bunch and tried her out support yesterday. I felt just as powerful as your standard supports. I was unsure what to lvl though. I went e w q into r>w>e>q thinking getting the cdr from e would be best but idk. iirc you do EWQ, then R > E > W >Q. Main reason is you want to get your E maxed first to have the longer root duration. The W next to get the CDR and to be able to plant more seeds down faster, either for faux-wards or to EWW someone. Q you usually level up last just because you won't have the AP/Mana to make it worth it and thus you basically just use it as another way to pop your seeds. At least that's basically how I'd do it. According to Mistake, you max Q second, not W. While he is obviously on top of the pro-scene, some of his choices are really awkward, such as how he also suggests that Janna should run ArPen reds (WTF).
Offensive marks on Janna are perfectly reasonable. You're not gonna outsustain anyone with a Janna lane, so you better have some threats available.
I used to run APen marks a lot back when I still played her frequently (a bunch of nerfs in the past though).
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On November 02 2012 04:25 sylverfyre wrote:
The Lulu Vayne game, I don't remember how lane went, but Frost eventually won.
there were lane switches so it's not a really good way to tell who wins in lane.
frost won game 1 because they outplayed TPA in teamfights, not really because of who came out of laning phase better. i think they underestimated karthus's defile damage. or they just decided to fight in it for whatever reason.
i'm probably just being idealistic but i still don't think vayne's lane phase is as bad as people say. you just gotta get good with her, she has the tools to do it, they're just really hard to use.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2012 04:26 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 04:22 TheYango wrote:On November 02 2012 04:00 SidianTheBard wrote:On November 02 2012 03:55 jadoth wrote:
Any one care to give me a primer on support zyra. I play her mid a bunch and tried her out support yesterday. I felt just as powerful as your standard supports. I was unsure what to lvl though. I went e w q into r>w>e>q thinking getting the cdr from e would be best but idk. iirc you do EWQ, then R > E > W >Q. Main reason is you want to get your E maxed first to have the longer root duration. The W next to get the CDR and to be able to plant more seeds down faster, either for faux-wards or to EWW someone. Q you usually level up last just because you won't have the AP/Mana to make it worth it and thus you basically just use it as another way to pop your seeds. At least that's basically how I'd do it. According to Mistake, you max Q second, not W. While he is obviously on top of the pro-scene, some of his choices are really awkward, such as how he also suggests that Janna should run ArPen reds (WTF). Maybe he has some reasons to max Q first, but I feel that CDR and faster seeds generation is more important, especially since plants damage does not scale with Q ranks.
Having a Q that does damage is more meaningful than the seed generation speed. If you compare plant damage to Q damage, having that extra seed generation really doesn't gain you overall damage output.
The only reason you might consider seed generation better is if you suck at landing your Qs on people.
Also, the fact that Mistake doesn't really play Zyra support himself is probably indicative of the fact that he just copied the skill order from Madlife, rather than it being something weird only he does.
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Eh, but it's true that vayne really needs ALL of her tools to fight properly (meaning level 3) and many FOTM aggressive bot lane duos can push early, get a slight minion advantage, and just step on her at level 1 or 2. And even post-3, vayne is still fragile and technical - very vulnerable to screwups. Also in the other direction, hyperpush+no-aggro lanes also give vayne trouble (Raka Graves comes to mind) because they pin vayne to her tower so hard that even if a gank comes to help out vayne, she is in a state where she has a hard time doing anything about it.
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On November 02 2012 04:35 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 04:26 Sufficiency wrote:On November 02 2012 04:22 TheYango wrote:On November 02 2012 04:00 SidianTheBard wrote:On November 02 2012 03:55 jadoth wrote:
Any one care to give me a primer on support zyra. I play her mid a bunch and tried her out support yesterday. I felt just as powerful as your standard supports. I was unsure what to lvl though. I went e w q into r>w>e>q thinking getting the cdr from e would be best but idk. iirc you do EWQ, then R > E > W >Q. Main reason is you want to get your E maxed first to have the longer root duration. The W next to get the CDR and to be able to plant more seeds down faster, either for faux-wards or to EWW someone. Q you usually level up last just because you won't have the AP/Mana to make it worth it and thus you basically just use it as another way to pop your seeds. At least that's basically how I'd do it. According to Mistake, you max Q second, not W. While he is obviously on top of the pro-scene, some of his choices are really awkward, such as how he also suggests that Janna should run ArPen reds (WTF). Maybe he has some reasons to max Q first, but I feel that CDR and faster seeds generation is more important, especially since plants damage does not scale with Q ranks. Having a Q that does damage is more meaningful than the seed generation speed. If you compare plant damage to Q damage, having that extra seed generation really doesn't gain you overall damage output. The only reason you might consider seed generation better is if you suck at landing your Qs on people.
The seeds also give you cdr, allowing you to land more Es.
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When you're picking someone like Zyra as support who has no sustain and no steroid for her carry, you have to be able to really crush someone if you get a good snare off. Especially consider that a snare does not prevent them from hurting you or your ADC unless they are melee (The opposing bot lane is at most 50% melee, and the one you'd prefer killing if given the chance ISN'T.) Leveling W means your snare has much less followup than leveling Q. +16% CDR gives you marginally more snare attempts, but adds literally NO damage when the time to allin comes.
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On November 02 2012 04:35 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 04:26 Sufficiency wrote:On November 02 2012 04:22 TheYango wrote:On November 02 2012 04:00 SidianTheBard wrote:On November 02 2012 03:55 jadoth wrote:
Any one care to give me a primer on support zyra. I play her mid a bunch and tried her out support yesterday. I felt just as powerful as your standard supports. I was unsure what to lvl though. I went e w q into r>w>e>q thinking getting the cdr from e would be best but idk. iirc you do EWQ, then R > E > W >Q. Main reason is you want to get your E maxed first to have the longer root duration. The W next to get the CDR and to be able to plant more seeds down faster, either for faux-wards or to EWW someone. Q you usually level up last just because you won't have the AP/Mana to make it worth it and thus you basically just use it as another way to pop your seeds. At least that's basically how I'd do it. According to Mistake, you max Q second, not W. While he is obviously on top of the pro-scene, some of his choices are really awkward, such as how he also suggests that Janna should run ArPen reds (WTF). Maybe he has some reasons to max Q first, but I feel that CDR and faster seeds generation is more important, especially since plants damage does not scale with Q ranks. Having a Q that does damage is more meaningful than the seed generation speed. If you compare plant damage to Q damage, having that extra seed generation really doesn't gain you overall damage output. The only reason you might consider seed generation better is if you suck at landing your Qs on people. Also, the fact that Mistake doesn't really play Zyra support himself is probably indicative of the fact that he just copied the skill order from Madlife, rather than it being something weird only he does.
There's an argument to be made that support Zyra is less concerned about damage and more concerned about CC. From that angle, W is preferable to Q as it reduces the cooldowns of her CC significantly. It's not a meritless option.
However, if your teamfight intervals are greater than her ultimate's cooldown without investment in W, then its value is significantly less. I don't think this is a clear choice, but one which is dependent on team composition (i.e. is there someone like Amumu with an even longer CD), in-game circumstances (is the enemy forcing teamfights constantly), and the like.
Ultimately this isn't a choice that dramatically affects laning. In that way this is very similar to the old discussions of whether to prioritize W or E after Q on Xerath. Laning ends by the time you have three ranks in your secondary ability, if not sooner (especially bottom lane).
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Ugh so we have another new champ "Zed" and I dont even know what Elise do ~~ Does Riot said somewhere if they are to stop making new champs after certain number or..? I mean with each new champ they got a ton of money but where is the limit? We got 106 champs right now.
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Boo, wanted Voy back on Dig.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2012 04:47 Seuss wrote:
There's an argument to be made that support Zyra is less concerned about damage and more concerned about CC. From that angle, W is preferable to Q as it reduces the cooldowns of her CC significantly. It's not a meritless option.
Being "less concerned about damage" does not mean that damage you give away is free. 160 more damage on a 5 second cooldown is very significant.
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On November 02 2012 03:57 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 03:55 jadoth wrote:
Any one care to give me a primer on support zyra. I play her mid a bunch and tried her out support yesterday. I felt just as powerful as your standard supports. I was unsure what to lvl though. I went e w q into r>w>e>q thinking getting the cdr from e would be best but idk. Your plants' damage scale with level and AP, not the ranks of your abilities, so it's better to go E>W>Q or E > W = Q.
She plays well as an aggressive support, rewarding solid coordination with your ADC. Landing a root should be a huge signal to attack, but until you get your ult, a missed root leaves your lane somewhat vulnerable so play accordingly. Seeds as mini-wards are a great way to extend your time in lane for a wave or two if your ADC needs extra farm but ward coverage has expired. I like R>E>Q>W as support. Plants can screw with your ADC's farm, so be careful about pushing too hard while trying to harass.
She's really good at teamfights in the jungle. She can have vision anywhere with seeds, roots rolling out of trees are especially surprising if your opponents don't see you casting them, and her ult is devastating if there are few places to run. Again, seeds and even thorn-spitters are good coverage when going for objectives. You can provide a wide zone of map awareness when going for Blue/Dragon/Baron. She's also pretty good at dropping actual wards, since the range on W means she doesn't have to get as close to check brush before dropping the ward.
I've used 9/0/21 and a runepage with AP&Health quints, mpen,armor,MR/lev . I may just be a baddie, but sometimes I like picking up merc treads just to avoid the frustration of dying with my ult up thanks to a little coordinated cc/silence train. I'm not sure what's optimal, but I usually build as such: Philo->boots1->HoG->Kindlegem->boots2 (CDR/mercs/mobility/mpen???) and oracle. Finish shurelya's then locket if the game goes long enough. From there I really don't know. Rylai's? Warden's Mail? Emblem of Valor seems like a good one, but if you finish zeke's after shurelya's you're over the CDR cap with level 3 W. Anyone have builds that work well?
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The amount of CDR that plants give PER RANK are super crappy for mid game team fighting... Zyra's base damage on her entire spell rotation is insanely high with Q around lvl 11-13 without any AP. Her greatness in support isn't just CC, map vision, and lane dominance... it's basically having Lina ulti as a support...
Having DAMAGE is never a bad thing to have especially when W scaling is ONLY decreasing the cooldown on plant generation and marginal 4cdr per rank. Q is just a solid skill that scales well per rank (cdr, damage) for what it can do for a support (FARM MAYBE IDK THOSE JUNGLE CREEPS RESPAWN HELLA FAST YOU KNOW)...
Easily you can reach 60-100 cs in a reasonable game for support zyra because of how efficient her basic spells are for clearing camps and lanes.You can always just get AP related items instead of support shit if your jungler/top has that shit covered.
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how do i convince my friend to not to use camera lock?
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United States5348 Posts
On November 02 2012 05:27 Kenpachi wrote:
how do i convince my friend to not to use camera lock?
you don't
a lot of that stuff is really up to user preference. I remember dyrus did camera lock for a realllly long time before he ended up switching.
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He still often uses camera lock. He just uses it a lot less now. 
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Question: why HP quints? Why not movespeed or GP5?
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United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2012 05:27 Kenpachi wrote:
how do i convince my friend to not to use camera lock?
I assume you mean other than telling him how camera lock only serves to hinder your gameplay?
If you've done that and he still wants to play with camera lock, then its his choice.
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On November 02 2012 05:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 04:47 Seuss wrote:
There's an argument to be made that support Zyra is less concerned about damage and more concerned about CC. From that angle, W is preferable to Q as it reduces the cooldowns of her CC significantly. It's not a meritless option. Being "less concerned about damage" does not mean that damage you give away is free. 160 more damage on a 5 second cooldown is very significant.
As is having her ultimate available for a teamfight where it otherwise would not be (which incidentally also includes 265 damage on multiple targets and potentially increases plant damage). That's why I was very focused on the question of teamfight frequency, if her ultimate is going to be available anyway then W second doesn't make a great deal of sense.
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Tell him to play Shen and TF.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On November 02 2012 05:37 Sandster wrote:
Tell him to play Shen and TF.
This will work, playing Nocturne was what made me ditch the camera lock
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EPT
