EPT[Patch 1.0.0.148: Kha'Zix] General Discussion - Page 192
| Forum Index > LoL General |
|
Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
| ||
|
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
| ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:01 Tooplark wrote: I can't wait to see Riot's item theory get smashed open and abused in ways they never foresaw. inb4 their new jungle items are actually OP as balls on top lanes, or their new support items are overly effective on ganking APs. On October 17 2012 05:03 wei2coolman wrote: unless support items scale linearly (but with steep slope), resource always gunna go to ad carries and ap carries, since they scale harder. I think it's possible to design utility items with certain immeasurable benefit that demands farm be allocated to a support getting those items. The best analogy I can make is Earthshaker getting a Blink Dagger in DotA. It's hard to measure the usefulness of that in terms of "scaling", but there comes a point where it's usefulness in a teamfight demands that he have one. | ||
|
Alaric
France45622 Posts
This match-up is so dumb: - the damage of his Q from level 1 onward is huge if he can touch you with the tip, and it's damn easy since Wu's auto animation is awkward as fuck - you've got no real disengage since his E pull is AoE and he has his passive MS buff + W slow, which also means if he ever catches you out of your tower you'll lose a huge part of your HP pool - you can't really outtrade him since you have to auto and his passive makes him automatically win those exchanges, without even talking about the dumb cd reduc on his W All of this combined makes a match-up were you can't farm outside of your turret, and even there he can harass you with Q, or zone you since even staying in exp range is pretty risky. You'll also never kill him because Wu can't 100-0 someone unless he's hugely ahead. | ||
|
Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Oh, right, MS boost on passive, I derped. Still not too noticeable in lane, since it's per bleeding champ. | ||
|
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
| ||
|
Simberto
Germany11433 Posts
On October 17 2012 04:48 TheYango wrote: Actually, re-reading that post, Morello seems to have the same misguided impression that a lot of people have that farm distribution is locked by lanes and that therefore support farm means taking laning phase CS from the carry. Look at the games at Worlds. "Laning phase" was over by the time the carries had ~150 CS in many cases (at that point teams were already making significant map movement and objective-taking), while games ended with carries having double that. There's a lot of room in there for farm allocation that has absolutely nothing to do with how you handled laning phase farm, but how you assign pushed creep waves to people to farm. It's just that people instinctively assign that to the 3 laners, when practically speaking it's not all that hard or unnatural to let the jungler/support take some. Letting support get a big creep wave when your AP/AD aren't close to a critical item (e.g. you used your AD's IE timing to take Dragon and now your lanes are pushing back to you--and your carries are just banking gold toward their next item so their farm need is low at the moment) can easily slowly build up into them having ~50 CS and having a few key items. Or it could be the difference between saving 100 toward your 2nd BF Sword and saving 800 toward your 2nd BF Sword. Which actually is zero difference in your combat ability. It's a matter of timing. Sometimes it's critical, sometimes it means absolutely nothing. But realistically any team at a high level should know when they need to make use of/play around those specific timings, so support farm should never be a situation where they're blindly denying a carry of a critical item at a key point in time. Problem here would be that a lot of supports are notoriously bad at clearing waves, and it would take a lot of time to clear that large wave, whereas an ad or ap would just have to walk by it and throw 1-2 skills at it. And you don't really want your support to spend a minute or so alone in a lane clearing up a big wave. Some are ok at it, like blitz for example, but others, like sona, just simply can't clear a wave in any reasonable amount of time. And even those that can take a while because they can rarely oneshot the wave with their ae skills. Which is a different problem, but the point is that a support with not a lot of items, and most of those supporting items, is not especially good at getting farm anywhere without wasting a large amount of time. I also think that part of this problem is just semantics. I don't think that "support" is very clearly defined. For most people, it involves not getting a lot of money, and buying a lot of wards. So if a support takes half the lanes farm, and buys items for himself with it, for many people he just is not a support anymore. Of course one could define support by saying "is primarily picked for skills that do something for the team besides direct damage", or something along those lines, but then stuff tends to get blurry when you look at people like lux or zyra as a support, or many mid picks which have a lot of those support qualities, like morgana or orianna. Support is just not a very well defined role, and for many people "support" is equivalent with "0 cs" | ||
|
Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:19 Simberto wrote: Problem here would be that a lot of supports are notoriously bad at clearing waves, and it would take a lot of time to clear that large wave, whereas an ad or ap would just have to walk by it and throw 1-2 skills at it. It makes me so angry that Crescendo doesn't hit minions. Several times I have rushed to save a tower as Sona and simply can't because I cannot kill the minions or stop them from hitting the damn thing. | ||
|
nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
I just don't get why at 1600-1700 elo I duo with a friend(we are last 2 picks always) and every game there is afk,3 top laners,people who shouldn't be 1200 elo(I bet you know them,the "trust me it works"->proceed to go 0/5,obviously 1v1 no jungle ganks),people who go afk for the most random of reasons(I push their lane with them to take a free tower) and the list goes on.I doubt it's any different in other mobas but this is complete BS.I mean do you guys too ignore at least 1 person EVERY game because I don't feel like getting spammed with annoying shit? | ||
|
agtemd
Canada362 Posts
 love her to death. | ||
|
Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:31 agtemd wrote: I'm kinda worried about how the jungle will affect shyv love her to death.They said it currently more favors single target junglers (using WW and Fiddle as examples) with high sustain. With Q and her AS boosts, Shy does great single target damage and gets some innate tankiness from 6 on. She'll be fine, I'd be really surprised if she was too weak. | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:19 Simberto wrote: Problem here would be that a lot of supports are notoriously bad at clearing waves, and it would take a lot of time to clear that large wave, whereas an ad or ap would just have to walk by it and throw 1-2 skills at it. And you don't really want your support to spend a minute or so alone in a lane clearing up a big wave. Some are ok at it, like blitz for example, but others, like sona, just simply can't clear a wave in any reasonable amount of time. And even those that can take a while because they can rarely oneshot the wave with their ae skills. Which is a different problem, but the point is that a support with not a lot of items, and most of those supporting items, is not especially good at getting farm anywhere without wasting a large amount of time. Supports with reasonable wave clear: Alistar, Blitz, Janna, Leona, Lux, Soraka, Taric, Zyra Supports with not-so-good wave clear: Lulu, Nunu, Sona The lion's share of common supports have very good farming power, even without items for it. The remaining ones require some effort to be balanced around the fact that they can't wave clear, but this isn't an insurmountable issue--it just affects their playstyle a fair bit. On October 17 2012 05:19 Simberto wrote: I also think that part of this problem is just semantics. I don't think that "support" is very clearly defined. For most people, it involves not getting a lot of money, and buying a lot of wards. So if a support takes half the lanes farm, and buys items for himself with it, for many people he just is not a support anymore. Of course one could define support by saying "is primarily picked for skills that do something for the team besides direct damage", or something along those lines, but then stuff tends to get blurry when you look at people like lux or zyra as a support, or many mid picks which have a lot of those support qualities, like morgana or orianna. Support is just not a very well defined role, and for many people "support" is equivalent with "0 cs" Support = 5th position = lowest farm priority = 五号位 | ||
|
gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:31 agtemd wrote: I'm kinda worried about how the jungle will affect shyv love her to death.shyv is one of the best-designed jungling champs in the game, no matter where the jungle goes, she'll always be at the top | ||
|
cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:34 TheYango wrote: Supports with reasonable wave clear: Alistar, Blitz, Janna, Leona, Lux, Soraka, Taric, Zyra Supports with not-so-good wave clear: Lulu, Nunu, Sona The lion's share of common supports have very good farming power, even without items for it. The remaining ones require some effort to be balanced around the fact that they can't wave clear, but this isn't an insurmountable issue--it just affects their playstyle a fair bit. Support = 5th position = lowest farm priority = 五号位 Waveclear and item multiplicity is only part of why supports don't go farm out waves. Practically speaking, by midgame you might still only have boots 1 and be severely underleveled = caught out easily even by 1 enemy champ. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
part of that is knowing when you can take those CS, when I ask for money for DFG i'll actually communicate with my AD and see how close to his items he is. if it's a tough lane, I prioritize him getting boots2 and a couple dorans and a BF over me taking anything. If we're raping, i'm gonna take some CS, and we're gonna be a much more effective duo in teamfights. Sona + AD = best friends when it's minute 35 and you have some defensive items as well (shurelia, aegis or aegis parts), and you're sitting at ~140 AD and AP, you are a much more effective character. I really think DFG is a great support item. | ||
|
Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
roit pl0x | ||
|
Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:56 Sufficiency wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2504929 roit pl0x I don't have enough wallet. | ||
|
Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 17 2012 04:50 spinesheath wrote: It's highly unlikely that Riot is going to introduce something that actually weakens yourself or an ally. They even got rid of the movespeed debuff on Blitz after he uses overdrive. They also cut down on many of the passive skills that would lose the passive while their active part was on cooldown (Yi, Taric). But I feel that self-sacrifice is a support-y mechanics and it is probably the only thing that can slap on a support and not being extremely broken on non-supports. We need end-game support items that can justify support farming. This is not to say that this will break the 0CS meta, but it will give supports more choices in terms of itemization. and farming. Also there are plenty of things which revolves self-weakening already. The prime example is obviously Mordekaiser, who has no non-ultimate sustain and all of his basic abilities cost health. | ||
|
zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On October 17 2012 04:43 Ogww wrote: After playing Jayce vs Irelia 6 and Irelia vs Jayce 4 times, I don't get how Irelia is supposed to lane against Jayce, though I'm currently only 1,4k-ish and so are my opponents mostly. Ranged mode all day, lasthit and non-stop harass and if Irelia happens to jump on you, RE when he's midair and boom you just won another trade. Haven't met any Nunu players as Jayce but after beating 5 Jayce's in a row with solotop Nunu it sure feels strong. She assists ganks extremely well, and once she gets ahead, she can drive the advantage home. | ||
|
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:56 Sufficiency wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2504929 roit pl0x fuck pulsefire ez, i want dis instead | ||
| ||
