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On October 17 2012 06:15 Numy wrote:
What yango means is you remove the term support and instead look at it purely based on farm priority. This avoids any confusion as support implies an act of supporting someone as you said. In fact everyone in the game should be a "support" since they all indirecting or directing helping the time hence why farm priority makes a bit more sense.
These farm priorities also not static, they just talk about an overall game priority. Even though at certain stages your 3 might become your 2 or your 5 might become your 4 overall they still don't really move.
This makes a lot more sense then what he said. I know that his system i used in Dota, but i am not quite convinced that it really applies to LoL that much. In Dota it works like this because you have a distinctly different difficulty in getting farm in the different lanes, but in LoL stuff does not really work like this, you basically always have 3 lanes where people are usually able to get most creeps in all of them easily. Mid can usually get more money because they can take wraiths, but thats about it. Maybe one can apply this concept to creepwaves in the later gamephases, but until that point your farm distribution does not really hang on your position, and more on how good your lane is working out in general. I don't know if we really have a 1-5 distribution system going on in LoL. The only really clear distinction is between 1-3, 4, and 5.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:32 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 06:29 TheYango wrote:
They should get rid of their stupid idea that Locket's shield should scale, and make it a higher flat value.
The fact that it's a level-dependent item designed for the lowest level hero in the game makes it shitty at all levels. Make it a flat 150 shield, and it would at least have some usefulness at a specific timing. 150 shield flat is really, REALLY weak though, especially if it's on a 60 seconds cooldown. I think the shield's base and scaling should be increased, but AOE should be decreased to compensate. It will still be useful against AOE comps, and on the other hand makes it more worthwhile to use on a singlet target.
The thing is, 400 range starts to be really restrictive on a support's positioning.
You very often don't want to be within 400 range of the front line of a teamfight.
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On October 17 2012 06:32 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 06:29 TheYango wrote:
They should get rid of their stupid idea that Locket's shield should scale, and make it a higher flat value.
The fact that it's a level-dependent item designed for the lowest level hero in the game makes it shitty at all levels. Make it a flat 150 shield, and it would at least have some usefulness at a specific timing. 150 shield flat is really, REALLY weak though, especially if it's on a 60 seconds cooldown. I think the shield's base and scaling should be increased, but AOE should be decreased to compensate. It will still be useful against AOE comps, and on the other hand makes it more worthwhile to use on a singlet target. I guess you could say change Locket such that it is on a 20 seconds cooldown instead. But given the cost of this item, when a support gets it he is already level 9+.
They need to make it a single target shield, would make larger impact, than aoe. 450 single target shield, on 45sec cooldown?
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On October 17 2012 06:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 06:32 Sufficiency wrote:On October 17 2012 06:29 TheYango wrote:
They should get rid of their stupid idea that Locket's shield should scale, and make it a higher flat value.
The fact that it's a level-dependent item designed for the lowest level hero in the game makes it shitty at all levels. Make it a flat 150 shield, and it would at least have some usefulness at a specific timing. 150 shield flat is really, REALLY weak though, especially if it's on a 60 seconds cooldown. I think the shield's base and scaling should be increased, but AOE should be decreased to compensate. It will still be useful against AOE comps, and on the other hand makes it more worthwhile to use on a singlet target. The thing is, 400 range starts to be really restrictive on a support's positioning. You very often don't want to be within 400 range of the front line of a teamfight.
It doesn't have to be. Your front line should be fine without your shield, as they generally have enough defenses themselves. Using it to save your carries from divers is easy, since you'll almost always be connected at the hip to your AD or AP carry.
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something like a super imba support item: 500hp, 30mr, 30 armor, 20%cdr, 5hp/s 5mana/s, 5 gp10 + some aura when under 20 cs, half when under 35, quarter and no aura when under 45 and so on... building from kindlegem, philostone, hog. combine about 1k gold.
just a brainfart really, no idea if its even good lol was just thinking about cool stuff i really want when i'm support...
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On October 17 2012 06:34 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 06:32 Sufficiency wrote:On October 17 2012 06:29 TheYango wrote:
They should get rid of their stupid idea that Locket's shield should scale, and make it a higher flat value.
The fact that it's a level-dependent item designed for the lowest level hero in the game makes it shitty at all levels. Make it a flat 150 shield, and it would at least have some usefulness at a specific timing. 150 shield flat is really, REALLY weak though, especially if it's on a 60 seconds cooldown. I think the shield's base and scaling should be increased, but AOE should be decreased to compensate. It will still be useful against AOE comps, and on the other hand makes it more worthwhile to use on a singlet target. I guess you could say change Locket such that it is on a 20 seconds cooldown instead. But given the cost of this item, when a support gets it he is already level 9+. They need to make it a single target shield, would make larger impact, than aoe. 450 single target shield, on 45sec cooldown?
But I feel that an AOE shield with a very small radius is kind of the same as a single target shield, except more interesting and versatile... there are already way too many supports who can cast single target shield.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:33 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 06:15 Numy wrote:
What yango means is you remove the term support and instead look at it purely based on farm priority. This avoids any confusion as support implies an act of supporting someone as you said. In fact everyone in the game should be a "support" since they all indirecting or directing helping the time hence why farm priority makes a bit more sense.
These farm priorities also not static, they just talk about an overall game priority. Even though at certain stages your 3 might become your 2 or your 5 might become your 4 overall they still don't really move. This makes a lot more sense then what he said. I know that his system i used in Dota, but i am not quite convinced that it really applies to LoL that much. In Dota it works like this because you have a distinctly different difficulty in getting farm in the different lanes, but in LoL stuff does not really work like this, you basically always have 3 lanes where people are usually able to get most creeps in all of them easily. Mid can usually get more money because they can take wraiths, but thats about it. Maybe one can apply this concept to creepwaves in the later gamephases, but until that point your farm distribution does not really hang on your position, and more on how good your lane is working out in general. I don't know if we really have a 1-5 distribution system going on in LoL. The only really clear distinction is between 1-3, 4, and 5.
It most definitely applies to LoL.
In most standard teamcomps, it's pretty clear as day that AD is 1st position, AP is 2nd, Top is 3rd, Jungle is 4th, Support is 5th.
The farm distribution usually works out this way in the long run, except on certain Western teams that tend to overfarm their AP (you all know who I'm talking about).
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On October 17 2012 06:35 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 06:33 TheYango wrote:On October 17 2012 06:32 Sufficiency wrote:On October 17 2012 06:29 TheYango wrote:
They should get rid of their stupid idea that Locket's shield should scale, and make it a higher flat value.
The fact that it's a level-dependent item designed for the lowest level hero in the game makes it shitty at all levels. Make it a flat 150 shield, and it would at least have some usefulness at a specific timing. 150 shield flat is really, REALLY weak though, especially if it's on a 60 seconds cooldown. I think the shield's base and scaling should be increased, but AOE should be decreased to compensate. It will still be useful against AOE comps, and on the other hand makes it more worthwhile to use on a singlet target. The thing is, 400 range starts to be really restrictive on a support's positioning. You very often don't want to be within 400 range of the front line of a teamfight. It doesn't have to be. Your front line should be fine without your shield, as they generally have enough defenses themselves. Using it to save your carries from divers is easy, since you'll almost always be connected at the hip to your AD or AP carry.
Right. I think 400 range isn't that bad. Supports are rarely focused in teamfight anyway, and with 400 range you can still utilize it as long as you stick close to your carry.
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When I think of support roles, I think that they are roles that do best when they have no money; therefore, their skills have to have benefits that are good without scaling.
Their items are mostly based on the fact that their abilities won't scale throughout the game so they have to get items with even more utility.
As for farm, I started to take a bit... but not in lane. Situations like mid and jungle ganking top and I rotate to mid to cover when bot is in a safe situation.
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On October 17 2012 06:35 Celial wrote:
something like a super imba support item: 500hp, 30mr, 30 armor, 20%cdr, 5hp/s 5mana/s, 5 gp10 + some aura when under 20 cs, half when under 35, quarter and no aura when under 45 and so on... building from kindlegem, philostone, hog. combine about 1k gold.
just a brainfart really, no idea if its even good lol was just thinking about cool stuff i really want when i'm support...
So the problem with support items is that they can easily be abused by non-supports. The item you mentioned, for example, can easily be built by every Olaf and be unstoppable in lane. This is why I feel there should be some sort of item that allows you to sacrifice some of your health/resistance and buff your team. This is the only thing I can think of which is support-y and will turn laners away.
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On October 17 2012 06:35 Celial wrote:
something like a super imba support item: 500hp, 30mr, 30 armor, 20%cdr, 5hp/s 5mana/s, 5 gp10 + some aura when under 20 cs, half when under 35, quarter and no aura when under 45 and so on... building from kindlegem, philostone, hog. combine about 1k gold.
just a brainfart really, no idea if its even good lol was just thinking about cool stuff i really want when i'm support...
I think something encouraging you to not farm creeps if they are just sitting there is silly. If your ad carry is back and there is a last hit, you don't want to be encouraged not to take that last hit as well.. you already have incentives not to take last hits.
I just don't feel like encouraging the no farm behavior even further will help diversify the metagame, and I feel like that text on an item would be clunky and awkward.
IMO, New support Items should just be useful on their abilities/benefits to the team and not on their stats, and should be relatively cheap. That way the items can be used by supports with little gold, and they won't scale into 6 item slots for carries.(your slots would fill fast and you wont have the scaling damage/survival)
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On October 17 2012 06:36 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 06:34 wei2coolman wrote:On October 17 2012 06:32 Sufficiency wrote:On October 17 2012 06:29 TheYango wrote:
They should get rid of their stupid idea that Locket's shield should scale, and make it a higher flat value.
The fact that it's a level-dependent item designed for the lowest level hero in the game makes it shitty at all levels. Make it a flat 150 shield, and it would at least have some usefulness at a specific timing. 150 shield flat is really, REALLY weak though, especially if it's on a 60 seconds cooldown. I think the shield's base and scaling should be increased, but AOE should be decreased to compensate. It will still be useful against AOE comps, and on the other hand makes it more worthwhile to use on a singlet target. I guess you could say change Locket such that it is on a 20 seconds cooldown instead. But given the cost of this item, when a support gets it he is already level 9+. They need to make it a single target shield, would make larger impact, than aoe. 450 single target shield, on 45sec cooldown? But I feel that an AOE shield with a very small radius is kind of the same as a single target shield, except more interesting and versatile... there are already way too many supports who can cast single target shield.
Single target is more utility imo. an extreme application onto single target >>> mediocre application onto multiple target.
Just because there is shield abilities on certain support doesn't mean an item shouldn't have that ability.
The shield could have interesting interactions, maybe a mini ghostblade buff along the shield.
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Xin Zhao does quite well vs Jayce top. You actually win trades and your Q knockup does a neat little thing where it really messes up Jayce's E. If he doesn't change into hammer form immediately, you can knock him up and run away as he tries to transform Q + E combo you and if he's Q'd first (which a lot of jayces do) he can't catch up to you. It's pretty funny.
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If I was Lead Designer, I would make Locket flat 500 shield at all levels and cannot stack but with weak stats (likely, not much above a HoG sort of stats).
0cs support is also really bad zzz.
On October 17 2012 06:44 Chrispy wrote:
Xin Zhao does quite well vs Jayce top. You actually win trades and your Q knockup does a neat little thing where it really messes up Jayce's E. If he doesn't change into hammer form immediately, you can knock him up and run away as he tries to transform Q + E combo you and if he's Q'd first (which a lot of jayces do) he can't catch up to you. It's pretty funny.
Xin is surprisingly good in general. Not as Win Nao as he was in testing (I have some bad memories of one particular iteration...) but he definitely has a place in certain lineups. I believe a CDR styled build involving Glacial, and a Kindlegem somewhere was good. I'm not very good at top lane so I leave the theorycrafting to others.
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Boots of Helping
Boots + 250 gold
Enhanced Movement 1
Assists are worth 50% more gold and exp.
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On October 17 2012 06:55 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:If I was Lead Designer, I would make Locket flat 500 shield at all levels and cannot stack but with weak stats (likely, not much above a HoG sort of stats). 0cs support is also really bad zzz. Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 06:44 Chrispy wrote:
Xin Zhao does quite well vs Jayce top. You actually win trades and your Q knockup does a neat little thing where it really messes up Jayce's E. If he doesn't change into hammer form immediately, you can knock him up and run away as he tries to transform Q + E combo you and if he's Q'd first (which a lot of jayces do) he can't catch up to you. It's pretty funny. Xin is surprisingly good in general. Not as Win Nao as he was in testing (I have some bad memories of one particular iteration...) but he definitely has a place in certain lineups. I believe a CDR styled build involving Glacial, and a Kindlegem somewhere was good. I'm not very good at top lane so I leave the theorycrafting to others.
500...AoE shield? That'd be pretty broken early....
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On October 17 2012 06:57 thenexusp wrote:
Boots of Helping
Boots + 250 gold
Enhanced Movement 1
Assists are worth 50% more gold and exp.
Boots of Jarvan
Gain gold every time you help an enemy secure a kill
"I'm helping!"
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United States47024 Posts
On October 17 2012 07:06 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 06:55 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:If I was Lead Designer, I would make Locket flat 500 shield at all levels and cannot stack but with weak stats (likely, not much above a HoG sort of stats). 0cs support is also really bad zzz. On October 17 2012 06:44 Chrispy wrote:
Xin Zhao does quite well vs Jayce top. You actually win trades and your Q knockup does a neat little thing where it really messes up Jayce's E. If he doesn't change into hammer form immediately, you can knock him up and run away as he tries to transform Q + E combo you and if he's Q'd first (which a lot of jayces do) he can't catch up to you. It's pretty funny. Xin is surprisingly good in general. Not as Win Nao as he was in testing (I have some bad memories of one particular iteration...) but he definitely has a place in certain lineups. I believe a CDR styled build involving Glacial, and a Kindlegem somewhere was good. I'm not very good at top lane so I leave the theorycrafting to others. 500...AoE shield? That'd be pretty broken early....
You know it's broken when it's stronger than it's DotA equivalent, lol.
Mek 250 heal, Pipe 400 shield against magic only--500 shield anything on Locket would be absolutely bonkers.
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On October 17 2012 07:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 07:06 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 17 2012 06:55 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:If I was Lead Designer, I would make Locket flat 500 shield at all levels and cannot stack but with weak stats (likely, not much above a HoG sort of stats). 0cs support is also really bad zzz. On October 17 2012 06:44 Chrispy wrote:
Xin Zhao does quite well vs Jayce top. You actually win trades and your Q knockup does a neat little thing where it really messes up Jayce's E. If he doesn't change into hammer form immediately, you can knock him up and run away as he tries to transform Q + E combo you and if he's Q'd first (which a lot of jayces do) he can't catch up to you. It's pretty funny. Xin is surprisingly good in general. Not as Win Nao as he was in testing (I have some bad memories of one particular iteration...) but he definitely has a place in certain lineups. I believe a CDR styled build involving Glacial, and a Kindlegem somewhere was good. I'm not very good at top lane so I leave the theorycrafting to others. 500...AoE shield? That'd be pretty broken early.... You know it's broken when it's stronger than it's DotA equivalent, lol. Mek 250 heal, Pipe 400 shield against magic only--500 shield anything on Locket would be absolutely bonkers.
Then again, you could always adjust the price so it's impossible to get early on.
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omg s2 finals brings out all the meta sheep.
Played vs a Lux/Crank/Ez/AP Nid/Skarner team. With the exception of ap nid, all of those champions were played a lot at s2. Not really surprised, but just hated playing against it for the first time. Convincing team that you need to go all-in on engages vs poke comps wasn't fun either.
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EPT
