EPT[Patch 1.0.0.148: Kha'Zix] General Discussion - Page 193
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XenOmega
Canada2822 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:34 TheYango wrote: Supports with reasonable wave clear: Alistar, Blitz, Janna, Leona, Lux, Soraka, Taric, Zyra Supports with not-so-good wave clear: Lulu, Nunu, Sona The lion's share of common supports have very good farming power, even without items for it. The remaining ones require some effort to be balanced around the fact that they can't wave clear, but this isn't an insurmountable issue--it just affects their playstyle a fair bit. Support = 5th position = lowest farm priority = 五号位 Are you saying Lulu does not have good waveclear? Good Lulu maxes Q first; she does have a waveclear. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:04 Requizen wrote: There are end-game(ish) support items, they're aura items. Supports are pretty good holders for FH, Abyssal (maybe less so since the nerf), WotA, and Soul Shroud (lol) - as well as the obvious Aegis, Zeke's, and Reverie. The part that sucks in my opinion is that they're all passive auras aside from Reverie, so they feel boring to buy. I want to start buying Randuin's on Leona/Taric/Blitz just so I can have another button to press or at least feel like I'm helping more than just being a walking totem. The problem with aura items is that it's not clear how well they are working, like you have pointed out. Which btw, I think Riot should buff Locket a little bit. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11686 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:34 TheYango wrote: Supports with reasonable wave clear: Alistar, Blitz, Janna, Leona, Lux, Soraka, Taric, Zyra Supports with not-so-good wave clear: Lulu, Nunu, Sona The lion's share of common supports have very good farming power, even without items for it. The remaining ones require some effort to be balanced around the fact that they can't wave clear, but this isn't an insurmountable issue--it just affects their playstyle a fair bit. I don't agree with your list. Ali needs quite a few levels in q to clear waves effectively, Blitz ult does not clear a wave, so you have to punch every creep at least once, janna will probably level q last and thus be horrible at clearing waves same for soraka and q, and taric will probably not want to waste his ult on a creepwave in most situations. Which would mean that of popular supports, those with acceptable waveclear at most points of the game are at best Ali, Blitz, Leona, Zyra, Lux. And even those take quite a while to actually clear that wave. This does not say anything and is not a satisfying definition. First of, "lowest farm priority" assumes linear use of farm on all characters, while there actually are breakpoints which are far more useful to reach, like for example completing an item, which is about half the argument at the moment. Thus, at some points in the game, farm priority can change between champions. If the support is close to finishing aegis and the jungler has just finished an item, is the support suddenly not the support anymore for 2 minutes, until he finished aegis, and then turns back into support? This is what your definition implies. Sure, it looks so knowledgeable to use chinese signs, but that is not a helpful definition in any way, either. Also, just because "support" and "low farm priority" often fall together does not make them equivalent. For example, if you run a double bruiser killlane bot, one of those two is probably the lowest farm priority. That still does not turn him into a support, since he still does not do any supporting. Basically, a support usually has a low farm priority, but a low farm priority is not what defines the support, it is just characteristic supports tend to have. | ||
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TheSinisterRed
United States1546 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:07 Sufficiency wrote: Are you saying Lulu does not have good waveclear? Good Lulu maxes Q first; she does have a waveclear. I would call Lulu's wave-clear reasonable. Passive helps auto attacks, W can power up your Q shot, E can take a decent chunk of the tank minion. At worst it takes 2 Q's worth of time to fully clear even a large wave. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
These farm priorities also not static, they just talk about an overall game priority. Even though at certain stages your 3 might become your 2 or your 5 might become your 4 overall they still don't really move. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:09 Sufficiency wrote: The problem with aura items is that it's not clear how well they are working, like you have pointed out. Which btw, I think Riot should buff Locket a little bit. I think a group-wide small % health regen active (like, maybe 8%) would be better than the shield. Like a mini Mundo ult, but not strong enough to make someone invincible. Maybe a tick saves a life/heals between pokes/helps shrug off minion waves during a trade. The shield just feels so... negligible. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:11 Simberto wrote: I don't agree with your list. Ali needs quite a few levels in q to clear waves effectively, Blitz ult does not clear a wave, so you have to punch every creep at least once, janna will probably level q last and thus be horrible at clearing waves same for soraka and q, and taric will probably not want to waste his ult on a creepwave in most situations. Which would mean that of popular supports, those with acceptable waveclear at most points of the game are at best Ali, Blitz, Leona, Zyra, Lux. And even those take quite a while to actually clear that wave. The only reason people level Q last on Janna is because of the low value placed on support farm. There's zero reason why people would level W over Q if support farm really became a thing. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:11 Simberto wrote: I don't agree with your list. Ali needs quite a few levels in q to clear waves effectively, Blitz ult does not clear a wave, so you have to punch every creep at least once, janna will probably level q last and thus be horrible at clearing waves same for soraka and q, and taric will probably not want to waste his ult on a creepwave in most situations. Which would mean that of popular supports, those with acceptable waveclear at most points of the game are at best Ali, Blitz, Leona, Zyra, Lux. And even those take quite a while to actually clear that wave. This does not say anything and is not a satisfying definition. First of, "lowest farm priority" assumes linear use of farm on all characters, while there actually are breakpoints which are far more useful to reach, like for example completing an item, which is about half the argument at the moment. Thus, at some points in the game, farm priority can change between champions. If the support is close to finishing aegis and the jungler has just finished an item, is the support suddenly not the support anymore for 2 minutes, until he finished aegis, and then turns back into support? This is what your definition implies. Sure, it looks so knowledgeable to use chinese signs, but that is not a helpful definition in any way, either. Also, just because "support" and "low farm priority" often fall together does not make them equivalent. For example, if you run a double bruiser killlane bot, one of those two is probably the lowest farm priority. That still does not turn him into a support, since he still does not do any supporting. Basically, a support usually has a low farm priority, but a low farm priority is not what defines the support, it is just characteristic supports tend to have. Whoa man, it's an opinion, not a dissertation, take it easy. And for what it's worth, he's right, too. | ||
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Celial
2602 Posts
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:22 Celial wrote: What would be kinda cool would be a support item that has really really awesome stats, super powerful and able to build up over time (even if it has to be like Dagon or Necronomicon from DotA where you have to buy the recipe over and over again) that DECREASES its stats the more cs you have. Taking a few cs here and there won't make or break the item, but if you get above... dunno 30 it really begins to fall off. Maybe even make it GP10 that gives you more gold the less CS you have. good idea but it might turn the whole game into aram or roam-festx5 why cs if you can gank instead, get champ kills, and still get more gold out of your item than if you were farming | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:11 Simberto wrote: This does not say anything and is not a satisfying definition. First of, "lowest farm priority" assumes linear use of farm on all characters, while there actually are breakpoints which are far more useful to reach, like for example completing an item, which is about half the argument at the moment. Thus, at some points in the game, farm priority can change between champions. If the support is close to finishing aegis and the jungler has just finished an item, is the support suddenly not the support anymore for 2 minutes, until he finished aegis, and then turns back into support? This is what your definition implies. No, it's perfectly fine if you're looking at the overarching farm priority over a whole game. Just because you will have timing-based changes in farm priority doesn't mean that you don't also have a general idea at champ select who on your team should end up the most farmed and who should end up the least farmed. That's what farm priority 1-5 entails. On October 17 2012 06:11 Simberto wrote: Sure, it looks so knowledgeable to use chinese signs, but that is not a helpful definition in any way, either. The point is that "support" is carrying over well-established meaning from other games in the genre that don't have any ambiguity. The only reason you'd feel the term "support" is ambiguous is if you belileve that the terminology that's been developed in the genre for the better part of the last decade is not worth applying to LoL. On October 17 2012 06:11 Simberto wrote: Also, just because "support" and "low farm priority" often fall together does not make them equivalent. For example, if you run a double bruiser killlane bot, one of those two is probably the lowest farm priority. That still does not turn him into a support, since he still does not do any supporting. Basically, a support usually has a low farm priority, but a low farm priority is not what defines the support, it is just characteristic supports tend to have. They probably wouldn't be the lowest farm priority because you're going to give them farm later. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:17 Requizen wrote: I think a group-wide small % health regen active (like, maybe 8%) would be better than the shield. Like a mini Mundo ult, but not strong enough to make someone invincible. Maybe a tick saves a life/heals between pokes/helps shrug off minion waves during a trade. The shield just feels so... negligible. On Locket? That would be way too powerful I feel. The problem with Locket currently is that it's not only situational, it also blocks (imo) a minimal amount of damage. Comparably, Shurelya's has far larger impact. I think Locket's shield should be 75 (+15 per level) from 50 (+10 per level) (max shield 345 from 230), but the radius of AOE reduced from 600 to 400. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:23 gtrsrs wrote: good idea but it might turn the whole game into aram or roam-festx5 why cs if you can gank instead, get champ kills, and still get more gold out of your item than if you were farming Make the stats more interesting for supports than other champs. Auras (especially actives), regen stats, and CDR are good stats for other roles, but rarely take precedence over AP (DC/Void/Zhonya), AD/AS(IE/PD/BT), or defenses(GA/Mallet/FH). Yet supports rarely need those stats (well, tanky ones want defenses sure), but thrive with CDR for their abilities, and love having auras to bring more to the team. In fact, I'd go so far as to say a cheap, heavy CDR item that builds out of GP5s would be grossly powerful as a support build path. | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The fact that it's a level-dependent item designed for the lowest level hero in the game makes it shitty at all levels. Make it a flat 200 shield, and it would at least have some usefulness at a specific timing. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:29 IMoperator wrote: Quick question: do arch angels staffs stack? The mana->AP effect does, the mana pool effect doesn't. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Yes and no. The mana -> AP passive stacks, but you can only get 1000 extra mana no matter how many AAS's you have. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 17 2012 06:29 TheYango wrote: They should get rid of their stupid idea that Locket's shield should scale, and make it a higher flat value. The fact that it's a level-dependent item designed for the lowest level hero in the game makes it shitty at all levels. Make it a flat 150 shield, and it would at least have some usefulness at a specific timing. 150 shield flat is really, REALLY weak though, especially if it's on a 60 seconds cooldown. I think the shield's base and scaling should be increased, but AOE should be decreased to compensate. It will still be useful against AOE comps, and on the other hand makes it more worthwhile to use on a singlet target. I guess you could say change Locket such that it is on a 20 seconds cooldown instead. But given the cost of this item, when a support gets it he is already level 9+. | ||
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