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I'm failing to see how removing a duo lane and imitating a top lane would create more diversity. In fact, would that be the opposite?
How is support a filler role? Are medics fillers in war? Are doctors less important than soldiers? This discussion is the perfect example of the ignorance toward the importance of the support role among the community.
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On August 13 2012 13:16 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 12:18 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:
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It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun.
Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want. Soraka's silence is underrated. It's a 2.6 second silence on a 7 second cd without cdr. Supports usually get to 30%+ cdr so it's a 2.6 second silence on a ~5 second cd. It also has like a 700 range or something. When you remember that it's her only form of cc, you won't feel so good when you look at other supports.
Well, CC isn't the only thing that's important. Increased magic resist, armor when you heal someone, global heal. There's not a single other support that can assist another champion on the other side of the map (unless you count support ashe or something like that).
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While the conversation has kind of drifted away from the 4v4 question, I think 6v6 would be even more interesting for lane pick dynamics. There will be some very real interaction between abilities, and more interaction is always nice.
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On August 13 2012 19:44 tissue wrote:
While the conversation has kind of drifted away from the 4v4 question, I think 6v6 would be even more interesting for lane pick dynamics. There will be some very real interaction between abilities, and more interaction is always nice.
We would just get 2 supports then...
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The premise IS terrible. It starts with stating that having a champ that doesn't rely (as much) on farm is bad game design, but never says WHY it's bad game design.
I happen to enjoy it that way. All of my attention (when I'm support, on bot) is in:
A: Ensuring you're getting fed on minions
B: Ensuring we take advantage of every opportunity to nail them if they're out of position
C: Ensuring you're safe
D: Preventing the enemy bot lane from farming.
I'm jockying for position with their bottom lane, I don't have time to dick around with last hitting minions, that's your job.
Support in the bottom lane isn't about finding something to do with the last player slot. Support in the bottom lane is about making up for weaknesses your (current meta) AD carry has.
In the mid lane, if I pick, say, Annie. And you pick LeBlanc, I'm fucked. I mean, maybe I get out of the lane without dying, but if we're equal skill-levels, I'm probably not going to win that lane, and, if you're abiding the current meta, there's not much you can do about it except frequent ganks.
In the bottom lane, the same would be true. AD carries are very good, and need to be in the game somewhere...so if you pair them up together, again, you get counterpicked. The support is about making up the difference in the counter pick.
Say, you get an AD carry and you're paired up against Urgot. Part of his kit is just poking you out of the lane. So maybe your support takes a champ with a heal to make up for it.
Essentially, what I'm getting at is this: The 5v5 current format gives you everything you want from the 4v4, plus some. It gives extra dynamic to the lane the support is in. If you remove it, if you remove the fourth, each lane becomes a counterpick, and there's really only one way to do it, since removing anyone from anywhere would be giving up a lane.
With the current, 5v5 setup, you don't HAVE to have a support. It's just the current meta. It's entirely possible your 5th could be specifically for counter jungling. Or two bruisers on top to push the other guy out of the lane. Or your support could support the middle. Hell, you can get a shen with teleport and have him just support the entire map.
5v5 offers choices 4v4 doesn't. Just because you don't like the current choices doesn't mean it isn't worthy.
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On August 13 2012 13:34 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 13:16 Dark_Chill wrote:On August 13 2012 12:18 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:
[quote]
I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists.
And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank.
I don't get this post.
Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible.
As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want. Soraka's silence is underrated. It's a 2.6 second silence on a 7 second cd without cdr. Supports usually get to 30%+ cdr so it's a 2.6 second silence on a ~5 second cd. It also has like a 700 range or something. When you remember that it's her only form of cc, you won't feel so good when you look at other supports. Well, CC isn't the only thing that's important. Increased magic resist, armor when you heal someone, global heal. There's not a single other support that can assist another champion on the other side of the map (unless you count support ashe or something like that).
I'm not saying Soraka's not good, or not good at supporting her team. He said Soraka's silence is underrated, and the reason for that is probably that it's the only cc in her kit, and it's not as strong as other supports' cc. This doesn't make it bad, it just makes it seem weaker in comparison when being looked on by other players. The other reason is that the cc is just sort of there. Soraka protects and keeps her carry ready for battle with mana and heals and stat increases, so people will think less of the silence, no matter how good it is.
Thinking about the OP, I think I found out what the true message was. It's another one of those "no one likes playing supports" threads. It's not about them being bad design or if it would improve the game overall. It's a problem found a lot in LoL, where no one wants to be stuck playing support, and might even dodge or afk instead of playing it.
There are solutions to this other than just taking out the class entirely, which strikes as just a terrible cop-out, instead of a well thought-out decision.
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EPT
