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On August 12 2012 17:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 17:25 cLutZ wrote:
2. Wota would be situationally great on supports in certain comps where no other AP really wants to buy it (it also gives vamp on AD abilities).
It's "nice to have". But it's not an efficient use of gold. If it were, an AP should buy it because they use the self-stats better than a support does. Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 17:25 cLutZ wrote:
3. You are making the statement: "contribute nothing to the intent of a support" that embodies what the OP actually hates about the current system. I like playing support, only because Alistar, Nunu, and Janna are awesome champs though. How would those items NOT help a support who wasn't gold starved?
Is he complaining that supports don't get to buy personal damage? In which case, there's nothing objectively wrong that there is a role whose purpose is to provide utility, rather than damage. He's playing it off like there's something objectively WRONG with the way it is now, when if his only complaint is that supports don't get to buy personal damage itemization, there isn't. They're playing a role, and their role isn't to do damage. And honestly, that has nothing to do with the number of players in the game. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling. So long as DPS/gold scales better with damage placed on one person than across multiple, it will be more desirable to focus damage items on carries, rather than dispersed across multiple people with singular token damage items. Bloodthirster? Of course that wouldn't help supports. Warmog's? Buying pure HP is inefficient in and of itself. Mog's needs to be supplemented with powerful defensive steroids that already boost someone's armor/MR to the point where that much HP is the most efficient way to get survivability (no supports have personal defensive steroids that strong), or be bought with Atma's, turning that HP into a damage source. RoA? You're spending a LOT on AP. While AP has some usefulness for support ability scaling, it's primary usefulness is still as a damage stat. A support's role is to provide CC and utility. To do so, their primary goals are survivability, CDR (both of which allow them to use their skills more times in a fight), active items (more utility options), and auras (not support-specific, seeing as everyone is realizing the power of aura items at this point).
I really find that LoL's support role is incredibly underdeveloped. How many support items are in the game? Now, how many are actually possible for a support to buy? Now, how many of those items can you get in one game?
I play support a lot, since you pretty much will always get the role unless someone is duo-queuing, and one thing I really don't like is how you're practically forced into buying the same items. Philo is incredibly good, Shurelia's is incredibly good, you can't afford to pass those up. It's not like you have a huge amount of other choices anyways.
I find that a couple low priced items with active and passive effects could really spice up the support role a lot. Something like "active: enemy champions in range have their damage reduced by X for X seconds". Just something like that for 800 gold, and bot lane suddenly seems even more interesting.
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On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game.
It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun.
Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies.
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On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies.
I know Riot said somewhere they are thinking of giving supports AP ratios that scale their utility because they want to break the 0 farm meta.
Here: http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/interesting-reds/21107-interesting-reds-possible-sivir-buffs-and-ap
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I like playing support as it is....T_T
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On August 13 2012 07:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I know Riot said somewhere they are thinking of giving supports AP ratios that scale their utility because they want to break the 0 farm meta. Here: http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/interesting-reds/21107-interesting-reds-possible-sivir-buffs-and-ap
They have only nerfed supports in the last few months :/
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On August 13 2012 07:34 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 07:08 cLutZ wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I know Riot said somewhere they are thinking of giving supports AP ratios that scale their utility because they want to break the 0 farm meta. Here: http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/interesting-reds/21107-interesting-reds-possible-sivir-buffs-and-ap They have only nerfed supports in the last few months :/
I'm pretty sure this would just be another nerf, wherein you need a certain amount of AP for your skills to be as good as they are right now.
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On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies.
I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists.
And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank.
I don't get this post.
Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible.
As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness.
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On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness.
I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid.
If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler.
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On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler.
Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example?
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On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler.
Well we would see very different support picks and jungle picks then as well.
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On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example?
'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way?
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On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way?
fuck I've been seen through.
Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights.
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On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights.
I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc.
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On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc.
I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want.
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having lanes be 1-1-1 + jungler seems like it would create more boring/stale gameplay, I think. The duo lane creates an interesting lane dynamic unique to 2v2 lanes, as does the potential of laneswapping 2v1/1v2 top/bot lanes for coordinated team play (unlikely to be useful in soloqueue though) creating interesting gank/towerdive potential and enabling early-turretpush strategies as well.
I do think we'll start seeing supports roaming a bit more often to pick up lane CS from recalling lanes (Such as Azubu's Lulu w/ 60 CS) so '0 cs' will no longer be 'correct' for the Support.
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On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want.
Soraka's silence is underrated. It's a 2.6 second silence on a 7 second cd without cdr. Supports usually get to 30%+ cdr so it's a 2.6 second silence on a ~5 second cd. It also has like a 700 range or something.
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Having a duo lane is more interesting than having 3 1v1 lanes, since there are much more possible combinations of matchups in the duo lane than in a solo lane. Would making the game 4v4 make solo queue less painful? Probably. But it wouldn't make the game more interesting.
The perception that support role is boring is wrong, imo, which is fueled by some actual boring champs that go support (coughsorakacough)
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On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want.
At that point, you're just looking at individual skills and not the package. You don't use Kassadin to protect your carry and silence a key target. You go and you snipe someone off. The difference between Soraka's silence and Kassadin's is Kassadin is trying to rape the crap out of someone and Soraka is used to pinpoint a single champion that has a major skill that can pop a carry and smack that silence on him/her.
Supports are in a completely different playstyle. You seem to be suggesting that they should be more powerful, but that's akin to saying "Yeah, supports should be able to single handedly carry games", and the role isn't built to "carry" games in the conventional sense.
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The five roles aren't just what you see in most meta games. People often forget that the meta (AD carry, AP mid, support, jungle, top bruiser) is just a strategy that's been developed and refined into THE BEST strategy. There are holes in the strategy, just like any other. Pro teams are starting to switch up lanes and put insane pressure on turrets. This denies farm to the solo lane player and forces jungle to be everywhere at once to defend.
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On August 13 2012 12:18 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want. Soraka's silence is underrated. It's a 2.6 second silence on a 7 second cd without cdr. Supports usually get to 30%+ cdr so it's a 2.6 second silence on a ~5 second cd. It also has like a 700 range or something.
When you remember that it's her only form of cc, you won't feel so good when you look at other supports.
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EPT
