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I'm a 1850 LoL player, so I'm not exactly ultragood or have insane insight, but I'm by all means no newbie either.
This is something I have tried to discuss on the official LoL-forums and reddit many, many times but it was never a very successful topic. Everyone disagreed with me, which is not necessarily bad - but I was supplied with very little solid arguments. All of the arguments boiled down to 'hurdur LoL-type games have always been 5 players and it works fine'. They are mostly fueled by nostalgia, insisting that it is 'iconic'. Another argument is one that is not relevant to me at all, being that most teams consist of 5 players and that if the game were to be 4-players, they'd have to scrap one of their beloved team members. I do not care about these things, this is a hypothetical debate that isolates the game and how it is currently set-up.
So here is my attempt on tl.net, hoping I can get some good counter-arguments or maybe even some people that agree with me.
To me, the support is just a poor solution that players have come up with to deal with the useless 5th character slot. Supports are just incredibly useless compared to the other characters. Before you say that supports are not useless: that is not what I'm arguing. There is an extra character slot, a place that you can fill with any character in the game that fulfills any role you want, yet the most optimal way to fill this role is by a character that is not supposed to do anything that earns himself/herself gold over other characters. To me, that is just incredibly bad game design.
So what we currently see are characters that are able to function as well as possible with as little gold as possible to try and get the most usefulness out of them. There is just so much you can do, which makes support incredibly boring to play to the vast, vast majority of the people (up to the point where some people would rather troll and risk a ban then, god forbid, play support).
If we have a 4v4 game, that would essentially create a second top-lane (but then for bot), a 1v1-scenario. It would create much more diversity and it would be interesting to see what they'd put in botlane; some AD carries cannot lane 1v1 against a plethora of champions, but you generally need an AD carry to deal with some champions in lategame that become invulnerable to everything else (mundo, warwick, singed to name a few).
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To me, the support is just a poor solution that players have come up with to deal with the useless 5th character slot. Supports are just incredibly useless compared to the other characters
supports are the strongest champions in the game they got nerfed several times because they were just too strong even in other roles. 4v4 would be WAY more static then the game is right now less ganks (yes some supports can gank sometimes) what I would expect if that would be the case: throw the support into midlane or only play support jungles (more likely) and mainly play support midlanes on ap like janna because supports are just so insanly strong.
Edit: on a sidenote League used to be 6v6 and after that 4v4 until they started doing the now used 5v5 style.
Edit2: thought a bit about it pretty sure the team composition would be: ad mid ap either top or bot (most likely the side with blue buff on) ap or bruiser top bruiser or support jungle (most likely support which means mao or naut sth like that) maybe a support as ap like janna/soraka
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On August 12 2012 07:30 Ente wrote:Show nested quote +
To me, the support is just a poor solution that players have come up with to deal with the useless 5th character slot. Supports are just incredibly useless compared to the other characters
supports are the strongest champions in the game they got nerfed several times because they were just too strong even in other roles. 4v4 would be WAY more static then the game is right now less ganks (yes some supports can gank sometimes) what I would expect if that would be the case: throw the support into midlane or only play support jungles (more likely) and mainly play support midlanes on ap like janna because supports are just so insanly strong. Edit: on a sidenote League used to be 6v6 and after that 4v4 until they started doing the now used 5v5 style. Edit2: thought a bit about it pretty sure the team composition would be: ad mid ap either top or bot (most likely the side with blue buff on) ap or bruiser top bruiser or support jungle (most likely support which means mao or naut sth like that) maybe a support as ap like janna/soraka
Supports are not the 'strongest champions', supports are the strongest champions for the 5th and IMO unnecessary role: support. It makes sense that supports are the strongest in the support role. Because they were meant to function with nearly no gold, some abilities were made with that thought in mind, meaning they'd be overpowered if the character actually had gold.
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you remember people playing janna soraka lulu mid? Maokai Nautilus jungle who are essentially supports? Orianna/Morgana who are top tier aps right now? they are partly support aswell (they are mainly build for ap but still more supportish then a brand would be)
Supports are INSANLY good and they are the only reason why a non full itemized ad carry can survive against bruisers.
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On August 12 2012 08:01 Ente wrote:
you remember people playing janna soraka lulu mid? Maokai Nautilus jungle who are essentially supports? Orianna/Morgana who are top tier aps right now? they are partly support aswell (they are mainly build for ap but still more supportish then a brand would be)
Supports are INSANLY good and they are the only reason why a non full itemized ad carry can survive against bruisers.
@OP, this is why this topic never gets discussed properly. Some people just can't accept the simple premise that support is a filler role (which happens to have a large effect on this game I agree) and think about the actual question of whether the game would be better without one. Always gets sidetracked by someone like this.
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On August 12 2012 08:01 Ente wrote:
you remember people playing janna soraka lulu mid? Maokai Nautilus jungle who are essentially supports? Orianna/Morgana who are top tier aps right now? they are partly support aswell (they are mainly build for ap but still more supportish then a brand would be)
Supports are INSANLY good and they are the only reason why a non full itemized ad carry can survive against bruisers.
I'm actually the jungler/part-time ap mid for our noobteam and only play support junglers and largely support mids (I build morgana with triple gp/10 and 9/9/12 masteries, go figure). The abilities they have are indeed support-oriented, but the difference is that they get a lot of farm and that they usually need a lot of farm. When I'm playing Galio I'm mostly playing a support-ish role, but I get an absolute crapload of farm. Have you ever tried to play support Galio (who was it that tried it, CLG?)? It just doesn't work that well.
With 'support' I mean: 'the character on the team that gets no farm or next to no farm', not just support-ish abilities.
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Now im kinda mad Oo I dont see a single reason why it would be better without if you would put the game to four people you would make several champions close to useless because they are there to support and dont have that much direct impact themselves (most supports after the nerfes cant solo lane Taric BC Ali cant for sure( ali/bc can lane vs certain matchups but really rarely)) Most ad carries would be useless because they need way too much protection and you would most likely not see ad carries or really rarely ad carries. The interesting thing what you can do with supports is get an champion advantage somewhere(and we see it more and more with laneswapping/agressive pushing) if you would not have any you would lane way more linear because you cannot really leave a lane alone for a few mins. Yes you would have still the jungler but in my opinion thats not too much most junglers are pretty predictable.
If we have a 4v4 game, that would essentially create a second top-lane (but then for bot), a 1v1-scenario. It would create much more diversity and it would be interesting to see what they'd put in botlane; some AD carries cannot lane 1v1 against a plethora of champions, but you generally need an AD carry to deal with some champions in lategame that become invulnerable to everything else (mundo, warwick, singed to name a few).
Thats not something which I would see as a valid argument for 4v4 getting a second toplane would basically make the game more boring because it would just be mirrored yes it would be kinda interesting what people would come up with but thats only for a short amount of time until the main "meta game" is devolepoed and people will be picking the same champions over and over with a way smaller viable champion pool.
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I remember seeing janna and lulu mid. They never really seem that impressive to me. I'd personally rather the support got removed.
I don't like playing support. When my team is bad I just feel like I don't have enough impact on the game. It can be argued that if my team is bad I'd lose regardless of whether I was a support or not, but I just hate that feeling that I can't do anything.
Supports do probably have the largest impact on the game due to wards being too game changing, but I still don't like playing them.
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Your solid argument is 'supports are utterly useless'. It doesn't add up. A good support will have the map warded at critical moments, save his ad carry multiple times throughout a game. Try playing only kill lane bottom for a couple of games. It won't work against most champions. That's because once the AD carry gets farmed you're gonna get wrecked because the useless support helped him get his farm.
Also the more people the more dynamic the play, thus more farmed.
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I think the biggest problems with making it a 4v4 or removing the support position is...
-Suddenly, "support" champions arent picked anymore. What do we do with them?
-in the current meta, supports help the ad; if the AD lane were limited to 1 champion, then we'd obviously come to realize which AD champions dominate which scenarios, so teams would probably counterpick the enemy AD and we'd end up with some 1 sided laning phases. Supports with the AD help to get rid of this 1-sided factor and allow for even gameplay
-In team fights, supports offer a lot (at least in my opinion). Whether its CC, heals, nukes, etc, they make a difference which I feel is too great to simply get rid of
On August 12 2012 07:25 the p00n wrote:
yet the most optimal way to fill this role is by a character that is not supposed to do anything that earns himself/herself gold over other characters. To me, that is just incredibly bad game design.
This part. Lets ignore what "game design" is for the moment. We dont know who came up with the original idea of a designated support (at least I dont think).
You feel that having a position dedicated to ensuring a farm-dependent position makes it through the laning phase is bad?
If you look at MOBA titles DotA and HoN, it is very common to see 2 or 3 "pure support" positions, dedicated to protecting the farming hero. In fact, you even see trilanes because supporting the carry is just that important. I don't mean to directly compare the games, but the essential idea of supports existing to aid another hero is something a lot of people would consider to be essential.
As for the idea of a "filler role".. isn't the meta something we as players come up with? I honestly don't know, but did RIOT say "yeah lets make one position be support"? If not, then the players came up with it, and seeing as its still around, I would like to think they do the job.
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On August 12 2012 08:16 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 08:01 Ente wrote:
you remember people playing janna soraka lulu mid? Maokai Nautilus jungle who are essentially supports? Orianna/Morgana who are top tier aps right now? they are partly support aswell (they are mainly build for ap but still more supportish then a brand would be)
Supports are INSANLY good and they are the only reason why a non full itemized ad carry can survive against bruisers. I'm actually the jungler/part-time ap mid for our noobteam and only play support junglers and largely support mids (I build morgana with triple gp/10 and 9/9/12 masteries, go figure). The abilities they have are indeed support-oriented, but the difference is that they get a lot of farm and that they usually need a lot of farm. When I'm playing Galio I'm mostly playing a support-ish role, but I get an absolute crapload of farm. Have you ever tried to play support Galio (who was it that tried it, CLG?)? It just doesn't work that well. With 'support' I mean: 'the character on the team that gets no farm or next to no farm', not just support-ish abilities.
That's because the current picking strategies involves having 1 person on your team not getting any gold because you need your ad carry farmed up so he/she can siege turrets and deal damage late game, should the game progress that far. Ad carries scale well with items. Supports scale well WITHOUT items, that's why they're so fucking good. Yes a farmed galio is better than a galio without farm, that's logic everyone can understand, but the only trade-off he gets from having farm is damage.
Janna, leona, taric, soraka, sona these are all characters you can give farm, but why give them farm when they can perform at 80% without giving them any farm and then have someone else who actually have good killing potential take their slot?
I would hate to see this game becoming 4v4, because people finally realized how much potential there is in diversity (2v1 top, 1v2 bot etc.). Also supports aren't a filler role. If RIOT made this game 4v4 i'd say remove the ap carry and have your support get farm instead and screw the ap carry (the support would essentially be the ap carry, but still has the babysitting function in team fights)
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I think the duo lane produces by far the most interesting and strategically deep interactions of all lanes. The only argument you seem to be putting forth is "support is boring to play", which is pretty unconvincing.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2012 08:16 the p00n wrote:
With 'support' I mean: 'the character on the team that gets no farm or next to no farm', not just support-ish abilities.
Then what about Azubu Blaze being massively successful giving the support near jungler-level farm?
0-cs support only happens because people are bad at this game and don't know any better.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Given how interesting the 2v2 lane is (or indeed 1v2 lanes are) I'd be more in favour of making LoL 6v6. You could run trilane AND a jungle, you could go mental and do quadra lane and just kill a turret super fast and stuff. 4v4 doesn't seem that interesting compared to 6v6.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2012 08:38 Alzadar wrote:
I think the duo lane produces by far the most interesting and strategically deep interactions of all lanes. The only argument you seem to be putting forth is "support is boring to play", which is pretty unconvincing.
Support is only "boring" because Riot designed supports like Soraka and Sona that have only point-and-click or target-less skills. Not because the role is inherently boring.
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The distance between turrets in mid lane is much, much smaller than the distance between turrets in top and bot. Top lane snowballs crazy hard compared to mid and is therefore a very cutthroat lane, where bruisers and a few casters are the only viable picks; if you add a second "top lane", then that takes a lot away from the unique gameplay each lane has, and restricts champion choice massively... unless you buffed AD carries to the point where they could reliably 1v1 vs. bruisers in top / bot lane, which would probably make them massively OP for when teamfights come.
So, we'd be homogenizing the game greatly... and for what? To get rid of the support role? Support is the favorite role for some people. Many more players prefer not to play support for various reasons (you have a lower impact on the game's outcome for instance), but I think the current situation leads to more varied, interesting gameplay than the OP's 4v4 suggestion.
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I personally love playing supports because i enjoy a 2v2 dynamic in-lane. 2v2 is a lot more dynamic than 1v1 in a side lane. Because of lower frequency of ganks, 1v1 bot would become a fight where everyone would play cait for the range or graves for the damage. Characters like alistar would be eliminated, Items like soul shroud would see even less use. Bot would be alot like top in that it would feel like a free farm fest alot more than it does now.
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I don't think this is the correct way to look at it, tbh. Or perhaps there's more than one way of looking at it.
Something I noticed a lot recently: Champs that are often put into the "support" role as their main role by players aren't because they are bad/useless but because of the way their skill set is built. Seems like most support Champs are just that because they only need to rely on their skills to be effective in team fights.
But you know this.
There are several supports that are able (or have been able) to hold their own in solo lanes (that include bat are not limited to: Nunu, Lulu, Alistar, etc) in order to either win/dominate lanes vs certain other champs and/or matchups, or add some damage into the lategame along with some form of strengthened support.
But you know this as well.
Maybe you can elaborate why you think champions that can function well using only their skill sets are simply bad design or otherwise "useless". Personally, I think that's real good design. Having only champs that all need to be heavily farmed in order to be effective is much more poor design than it is now, imo.
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@most people: you are ignoring what I am trying to discuss. I.e. the guy saying 'try playing only kill lane bottom and you'll see how hard you get wrecked thanks to that 'useless support''. In this scenario the kill lane takes up the support spot and as I stated in my opening post, the 'support' is what has been determined as the optimal filler role - it is obvious that any non-support is going to be inferior for the support role, even if you change that support role into something else.
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Ok, then i'm gonna say support isn't a filler role, ap carry is. Without support you can't effectively play AD carry. If you can't play AD carry effectively you can't siege turrets which obviously is the main idea of this game (killing the nexus huehue).
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This discussion is pretty much just all theory and has no real substance to it. Riot is never going to change their matchmaking to 4v4 and pro teams aren't going to be okay with dropping one of their players (in many cases one of their best players) even if you could make the argument that 4v4 is somehow superior.
I'm sure you could make the argument that 1v1s on SR would be more exciting too. There'd be way more action to get first blood and shit. I'm sure you could decide that Small Forward in basketball is a wasted filler position too or that shortstop is a non-necessary position in baseball.
But there's no purpose in doing so. I could argue that jungler is less important than support. The support actually helps get your team's strongest member farmed while the jungler just ganks sometimes and only kills the neutral monsters. I think it'd be an interesting experiment to see a 4v4 where one team doesn't have a support and one team doesn't have a jungler. I'm pretty sure the non-support team would get rocked.
edit:
Basically, all I have to do is find one example of a support doing something substantial in a team fight and your point of support being a filler role is now moot. If a role can change the tide of the game (and support can and does) then it isn't a filler position.
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That 6v6 idea sounds pretty cool. Oh, the plays that could be made  The team comps that could be created
I think one reason people don't like supporting is that getting items and seeing their effect on the game is something really important. That's a fun part of LoL. Not having that liberty makes supports pretty boring, especially when items like Shurelia's exist. If Riot made some items that were suited for the role of support (offering utility through actives or passives) at a low cost, you'd probably see supports being liked more because you gain that much more effect on the game. Low gold gain won't matter if you can buy items anyways, and varied ones at that.
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Without a 5th man, every lane phase would be 3 1v1's and a jungler. Without that 5th man to spice things up with roaming or babysitting or being a bot lane warrior, the early game would become so stagnant and boring that you could conceivably skip it altogether, start everyone at level 9 with 3k gold, and have a more interesting match.
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So you're mad that other roles can't be support? Well I'm mad that AD carries can't be AP carries.
Edit: Oh I see. It's not so much that "other roles can't play support" as much as "not all Champions can scale as well just off their skill set". Is this the gist of it?
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This game would be awful with just 4v4. It'd be so stagnant and boring to watch, it would also make the ad carry almost a non playable role. Because most ad carries can be super hard countered by others in a 1v1 situation. The support / AD carry lane is the most interesting and dynamic part of the lol experience imo. And support is very important and I find it rather enjoyable.
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United States37500 Posts
I'll let this thread run its course but the premise is terrible.
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If we play 4v4 there would be a lot of adc mid which wouldnt be as exciting (their ganking power is not as strong and it would be a lot more farming)
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The answer to your question: No.
The duo lane is one of the most interesting facets of LoL, particularly in a team context. The dynamic it brings to picks and bans, the coordination between the two laners, the skill combinations and skirmishes, all of that would disappear if LoL became three solo lanes. The most interesting lane to watch, in my opinion, is almost always bottom.
That there are players who do not enjoy supporting others is nothing new. If you're played MMOs you know that healers and tanks are generally rare commodities. The same is true of LoL, except in the form of players who are willing to be the support. Just because such players do not exist in sufficient quantities to make sure there is one such player for every team doesn't make the inclusion of a playstyle paradigm that suits them a bad design decision.
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Three solo lanes?
Dear god Panth permaban
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United States47024 Posts
The OP's whole argument is essentially based around the assumption that with 4 sources of income and 5 heroes, the division of farm optimally results in a hero that gets no farm. Which, as Blaze has shown the world, is not a given, despite the fact that for a LONG time now, everyone in the LoL community has taken that for granted.
Support farm is a very complex and valuable thing, and it's an area of this game that has huge potential for growth and experimentation. Proper application of it has the potential to be extremely powerful.
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On August 12 2012 09:16 Sponkz wrote:
Ok, then i'm gonna say support isn't a filler role, ap carry is. Without support you can't effectively play AD carry. If you can't play AD carry effectively you can't siege turrets which obviously is the main idea of this game (killing the nexus huehue).
You need an AP carry to keep the enemy honest and not just stacking armor items. You need supporting in team fights for your carries to be effective generally speaking, but supporting comes from more than just a pure support, e.g. Alistar jungle, Orianna mid.
Top and jungle are generally pretty interchangeable in terms of role and even champion which makes the top bruisery/tank the most likely "to go" in the case of four champs since you can still get most of the role/utility you want, just less of it.
That said, 4v4 would be horrendous and do extreme harm to the game, its popularity, and especially its competitiveness. If you know what to look for you can often see the tremendous job that pro supports do in lane and in team fights. A lot of it is extremely subtle, which is why you only tend to notice things like Janna or Sona ultis or flash pulvs by Alistar.
Further, 4v4 is simply a completely different game than 5v5. Think of how Twisted Treeline plays out where bruisers are king and carries are generally god awful. Even accounting for the differences in the map, you still get much of the same fighting issues where carries can't be protected both to get farm (in the case of several AD carries early on) and can't be protected to do damage in team fights.
Consider how much of a failure every attempt at remaking the traditional 5v5 3 lane style has been across every game in the genre. Fact of the matter is, despite how there's a very vocal minority that bitches up a storm about playing support, people still gravitate right on back to 5v5 Summoner's Rift because it's heads and shoulders above anything else that's been done.
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On August 12 2012 15:28 TheYango wrote:
The OP's whole argument is essentially based around the assumption that with 4 sources of income and 5 heroes, the division of farm optimally results in a hero that gets no farm. Which, as Blaze has shown the world, is not a given, despite the fact that for a LONG time now, everyone in the LoL community has taken that for granted.
Support farm is a very complex and valuable thing, and it's an area of this game that has huge potential for growth and experimentation. Proper application of it has the potential to be extremely powerful.
Eh, blaze gave the support "targeted" farm to hit specific goals. Goals, that to be fair, were intended to help the other players on the team much more than the support. We are talking Aegis/Zekes/Shurelias not Abyssal/Wota (among aura items). They certainly didn't give the support farm so it could buy a Rode of Ages, warmogs, or bloodthirster. Blaze just did the LoL equivalent of cutting SCVs (cutting carry farm) for a timing push (Aegis). Support farm just for its own sake is still dumb.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2012 16:43 cLutZ wrote:
Eh, blaze gave the support "targeted" farm to hit specific goals.
70ish CS is a fair bit more than just "targeted farm" to finish an item. That's an entire item's worth of gold in and of itself.
On August 12 2012 16:43 cLutZ wrote:
Goals, that to be fair, were intended to help the other players on the team much more than the support.
I don't even understand what you're saying here. There's no "help myself" vs. "helping other players" when it comes to a 5 player competitive game. There is only the team.
EVERY player's item choices only serve the purpose of helping the team. They just help the team in different ways as dictated by their role.
On August 12 2012 16:43 cLutZ wrote:
We are talking Aegis/Zekes/Shurelias not Abyssal/Wota (among aura items). They certainly didn't give the support farm so it could buy a Rode of Ages, warmogs, or bloodthirster. Blaze just did the LoL equivalent of cutting SCVs (cutting carry farm) for a timing push (Aegis). Support farm just for its own sake is still dumb.
Mentioning Abyssal/WotA and RoA/Mogs/Bloodthirster makes no sense, because even if a support could get laner-level farm they still wouldn't buy those items because they contribute nothing to the intent of a support. They spend gold too inefficiently on buying/augmenting personal damage for a role whose intent is not to provide damage.
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On August 12 2012 17:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 16:43 cLutZ wrote:On August 12 2012 15:28 TheYango wrote:
The OP's whole argument is essentially based around the assumption that with 4 sources of income and 5 heroes, the division of farm optimally results in a hero that gets no farm. Which, as Blaze has shown the world, is not a given, despite the fact that for a LONG time now, everyone in the LoL community has taken that for granted.
Support farm is a very complex and valuable thing, and it's an area of this game that has huge potential for growth and experimentation. Proper application of it has the potential to be extremely powerful. Eh, blaze gave the support "targeted" farm to hit specific goals. Goals, that to be fair, were intended to help the other players on the team much more than the support. We are talking Aegis/Zekes/Shurelias not Abyssal/Wota (among aura items). They certainly didn't give the support farm so it could buy a Rode of Ages, warmogs, or bloodthirster. Blaze just did the LoL equivalent of cutting SCVs (cutting carry farm) for a timing push (Aegis). Support farm just for its own sake is still dumb. 70ish CS is a fair bit more than just "targeted farm" to finish an item. Mentioning Abyssal/WotA and RoA/Mogs/Bloodthirster makes no sense, because even if a support could get laner-level farm they still wouldn't buy those items because they contribute nothing to the intent of a support. They spend gold too inefficiently on buying/augmenting personal damage for a role whose intent is not to provide damage.
First of all I want to make clear I don't thing 4v4 is superior, I just felt there were too many straw men being torn down by people objecting to the OP.
2. Wota would be situationally great on supports in certain comps where no other AP really wants to buy it (it also gives vamp on AD abilities).
3. You are making the statement: "contribute nothing to the intent of a support" that embodies what the OP actually hates about the current system. I like playing support, only because Alistar, Nunu, and Janna are awesome champs though. How would those items NOT help a support who wasn't gold starved?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2012 17:25 cLutZ wrote:
2. Wota would be situationally great on supports in certain comps where no other AP really wants to buy it (it also gives vamp on AD abilities).
It's "nice to have". But it's not an efficient use of gold. If it were, an AP should buy it because they use the self-stats better than a support does.
On August 12 2012 17:25 cLutZ wrote:
3. You are making the statement: "contribute nothing to the intent of a support" that embodies what the OP actually hates about the current system. I like playing support, only because Alistar, Nunu, and Janna are awesome champs though. How would those items NOT help a support who wasn't gold starved?
Is he complaining that supports don't get to buy personal damage? In which case, there's nothing objectively wrong that there is a role whose purpose is to provide utility, rather than damage. He's playing it off like there's something objectively WRONG with the way it is now, when if his only complaint is that supports don't get to buy personal damage itemization, there isn't. They're playing a role, and their role isn't to do damage. And honestly, that has nothing to do with the number of players in the game. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling. So long as DPS/gold scales better with damage placed on one person than across multiple, it will be more desirable to focus damage items on carries, rather than dispersed across multiple people with singular token damage items.
Bloodthirster? Of course that wouldn't help supports.
Warmog's? Buying pure HP is inefficient in and of itself. Mog's needs to be supplemented with powerful defensive steroids that already boost someone's armor/MR to the point where that much HP is the most efficient way to get survivability (no supports have personal defensive steroids that strong), or be bought with Atma's, turning that HP into a damage source.
RoA? You're spending a LOT on AP. While AP has some usefulness for support ability scaling, it's primary usefulness is still as a damage stat.
A support's role is to provide CC and utility. To do so, their primary goals are survivability, CDR (both of which allow them to use their skills more times in a fight), active items (more utility options), and auras (not support-specific, seeing as everyone is realizing the power of aura items at this point).
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On August 12 2012 17:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 17:25 cLutZ wrote:
3. You are making the statement: "contribute nothing to the intent of a support" that embodies what the OP actually hates about the current system. I like playing support, only because Alistar, Nunu, and Janna are awesome champs though. How would those items NOT help a support who wasn't gold starved?
Is he complaining that supports don't get to buy personal damage? In which case, there's nothing objectively wrong that there is a role whose purpose is to provide utility, rather than damage. He's playing it off like there's something objectively WRONG with the way it is now, when if his only complaint is that supports don't get to buy personal damage itemization, there isn't. They're playing a role, and their role isn't to do damage. And honestly, that has nothing to do with the number of players in the game. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling. So long as DPS/gold scales better with damage placed on one person than across multiple, it will be more desirable to focus damage items on carries, rather than dispersed across multiple people with singular token damage items. Bloodthirster? Of course that wouldn't help supports. Warmog's? Buying pure HP is inefficient in and of itself. Mog's needs to be supplemented with powerful defensive steroids that already boost someone's armor/MR to the point where that much HP is the most efficient way to get survivability (no supports have personal defensive steroids that strong), or be bought with Atma's, turning that HP into a damage source. RoA? You're spending a LOT on AP. While AP has some usefulness for support ability scaling, it's primary usefulness is still as a damage stat. A support's role is to provide CC and utility. To do so, their primary goals are survivability, CDR (both of which allow them to use their skills more times in a fight), active items (more utility options), and auras (not support-specific, seeing as everyone is realizing the power of aura items at this point).
I don't want to put words into the OP's mouth, but pretty much everything you said as "what a support should do" seems to be the common complaint of people about supports (also, most supports get blown up when they get sneezed at, which is a big problem if they are going to be your "aura bot").
If you don't like those items what about some other big ticket items? Randuins? Frozen Heart? Banshee's veil? Also, AP on some supports is awesome. Janna Shield, Soraka Heal,etc. These items are not built on supports, not because they wouldn't help the support perform its role better, but because that same gold is more efficiently used elsewhere on the team.
All of this is, just to point out that blaze didn't really give the support farm, they donated the support 1-2 "items" that the other characters didn't want taking up an item slot.
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Creating a second toplane is clearly not a good idea. AD carrys would be very hard to pick because they're bad at 1on1. Supports might disappear too.
The only good thing about 4v4 would be that it would be easier for teams to travel/get sponsorship/be invited. We saw with mlg arena that it's a problem : getting 20 players in is expensive but it makes only 4 teams (and one was reaaaally bad)
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2012 17:53 cLutZ wrote:
I don't want to put words into the OP's mouth, but pretty much everything you said as "what a support should do" seems to be the common complaint of people about supports (also, most supports get blown up when they get sneezed at, which is a big problem if they are going to be your "aura bot").
Roles that play that way are not exclusive to LoL, or even to the genre. Non-damage focused, utility-based support roles are ubiquitous in team competitive games.
They also tend to be balance issues when they're not on the squishy side.
On August 12 2012 17:53 cLutZ wrote:
If you don't like those items what about some other big ticket items? Randuins? Frozen Heart? Banshee's veil? Also, AP on some supports is awesome. Janna Shield, Soraka Heal,etc. These items are not built on supports, not because they wouldn't help the support perform its role better, but because that same gold is more efficiently used elsewhere on the team.
Physical damage mitigation and an active as in-your-face and offensive as Randuin's tend to be more relevant to front-line heroes rather than back-line supports (the major source of physical damage on any team is going to be the AD carry, and the support often should not be positioned in such a way as to be accessible to take damage from them. Likewise, it's not a given that the support should be even in range for for the Frozen Heart aura to even apply to the enemy AD (people take aura ranges for granted, but 1000 range is really not that long). And neither item is that amazing in multiples, so it's obviously more suitable for heroes that need the stats more and will be in position to use them to get those items.
Banshee's gives things that a support might want, but the item itself is not in a terribly fantastic place overall right now. I don't see why you're surprised that nobody's giving supports farm to buy Banshee's when pretty much no one else is buying Banshee's, period.
On August 12 2012 17:53 cLutZ wrote:
All of this is, just to point out that blaze didn't really give the support farm, they donated the support 1-2 "items" that the other characters didn't want taking up an item slot.
What is this "other characters don't want"? Every member on the team only wants one thing. To win. I don't see how anything about what Helios or FantasyStar does or doesn't feel like carrying holds any bearing on this.
Lustboy got those items because Lustboy getting those items contributed to Blaze winning. By extension, getting Lustboy farmed to that point contributed to Blaze winning.
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First of all, the game would be too symmetric. While symmetry is good from an aesthetics point of view, it creates the following problems:
1. There would be two "top lanes", where snowball is a huge factor.
2. You would push out most of weak-early game characters, almost breaking the AD carry role. Just characters like Tristana, Graves, Corki and Ezreal would survive the axe, making them very high picks and probably banned in lots of matches, since they have a relatively safe early-games compared to other ADs and they scale really hard.
3. Securing map objectives becomes harder, because you lose so much by leaving your lane.
4. Certain champions would be crazy good with the absence of supports that favor CC and utility. Look at Twisted Treeline, for instance - it is dominated by bruisers with CC or hard chase/scape abilities.
This and many more reasons, but I'm kinda in a rush, so I can't write them all :B
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It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game.
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On August 12 2012 17:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 17:25 cLutZ wrote:
2. Wota would be situationally great on supports in certain comps where no other AP really wants to buy it (it also gives vamp on AD abilities).
It's "nice to have". But it's not an efficient use of gold. If it were, an AP should buy it because they use the self-stats better than a support does. Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 17:25 cLutZ wrote:
3. You are making the statement: "contribute nothing to the intent of a support" that embodies what the OP actually hates about the current system. I like playing support, only because Alistar, Nunu, and Janna are awesome champs though. How would those items NOT help a support who wasn't gold starved?
Is he complaining that supports don't get to buy personal damage? In which case, there's nothing objectively wrong that there is a role whose purpose is to provide utility, rather than damage. He's playing it off like there's something objectively WRONG with the way it is now, when if his only complaint is that supports don't get to buy personal damage itemization, there isn't. They're playing a role, and their role isn't to do damage. And honestly, that has nothing to do with the number of players in the game. It has to do with multiplicative damage scaling. So long as DPS/gold scales better with damage placed on one person than across multiple, it will be more desirable to focus damage items on carries, rather than dispersed across multiple people with singular token damage items. Bloodthirster? Of course that wouldn't help supports. Warmog's? Buying pure HP is inefficient in and of itself. Mog's needs to be supplemented with powerful defensive steroids that already boost someone's armor/MR to the point where that much HP is the most efficient way to get survivability (no supports have personal defensive steroids that strong), or be bought with Atma's, turning that HP into a damage source. RoA? You're spending a LOT on AP. While AP has some usefulness for support ability scaling, it's primary usefulness is still as a damage stat. A support's role is to provide CC and utility. To do so, their primary goals are survivability, CDR (both of which allow them to use their skills more times in a fight), active items (more utility options), and auras (not support-specific, seeing as everyone is realizing the power of aura items at this point).
I really find that LoL's support role is incredibly underdeveloped. How many support items are in the game? Now, how many are actually possible for a support to buy? Now, how many of those items can you get in one game?
I play support a lot, since you pretty much will always get the role unless someone is duo-queuing, and one thing I really don't like is how you're practically forced into buying the same items. Philo is incredibly good, Shurelia's is incredibly good, you can't afford to pass those up. It's not like you have a huge amount of other choices anyways.
I find that a couple low priced items with active and passive effects could really spice up the support role a lot. Something like "active: enemy champions in range have their damage reduced by X for X seconds". Just something like that for 800 gold, and bot lane suddenly seems even more interesting.
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On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game.
It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun.
Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies.
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On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies.
I know Riot said somewhere they are thinking of giving supports AP ratios that scale their utility because they want to break the 0 farm meta.
Here: http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/interesting-reds/21107-interesting-reds-possible-sivir-buffs-and-ap
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I like playing support as it is....T_T
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On August 13 2012 07:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I know Riot said somewhere they are thinking of giving supports AP ratios that scale their utility because they want to break the 0 farm meta. Here: http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/interesting-reds/21107-interesting-reds-possible-sivir-buffs-and-ap
They have only nerfed supports in the last few months :/
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On August 13 2012 07:34 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 07:08 cLutZ wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I know Riot said somewhere they are thinking of giving supports AP ratios that scale their utility because they want to break the 0 farm meta. Here: http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/interesting-reds/21107-interesting-reds-possible-sivir-buffs-and-ap They have only nerfed supports in the last few months :/
I'm pretty sure this would just be another nerf, wherein you need a certain amount of AP for your skills to be as good as they are right now.
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On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies.
I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists.
And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank.
I don't get this post.
Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible.
As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness.
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On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness.
I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid.
If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler.
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On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler.
Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example?
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On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler.
Well we would see very different support picks and jungle picks then as well.
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On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example?
'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way?
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On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way?
fuck I've been seen through.
Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights.
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On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights.
I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc.
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On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc.
I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want.
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having lanes be 1-1-1 + jungler seems like it would create more boring/stale gameplay, I think. The duo lane creates an interesting lane dynamic unique to 2v2 lanes, as does the potential of laneswapping 2v1/1v2 top/bot lanes for coordinated team play (unlikely to be useful in soloqueue though) creating interesting gank/towerdive potential and enabling early-turretpush strategies as well.
I do think we'll start seeing supports roaming a bit more often to pick up lane CS from recalling lanes (Such as Azubu's Lulu w/ 60 CS) so '0 cs' will no longer be 'correct' for the Support.
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On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want.
Soraka's silence is underrated. It's a 2.6 second silence on a 7 second cd without cdr. Supports usually get to 30%+ cdr so it's a 2.6 second silence on a ~5 second cd. It also has like a 700 range or something.
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Having a duo lane is more interesting than having 3 1v1 lanes, since there are much more possible combinations of matchups in the duo lane than in a solo lane. Would making the game 4v4 make solo queue less painful? Probably. But it wouldn't make the game more interesting.
The perception that support role is boring is wrong, imo, which is fueled by some actual boring champs that go support (coughsorakacough)
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On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want.
At that point, you're just looking at individual skills and not the package. You don't use Kassadin to protect your carry and silence a key target. You go and you snipe someone off. The difference between Soraka's silence and Kassadin's is Kassadin is trying to rape the crap out of someone and Soraka is used to pinpoint a single champion that has a major skill that can pop a carry and smack that silence on him/her.
Supports are in a completely different playstyle. You seem to be suggesting that they should be more powerful, but that's akin to saying "Yeah, supports should be able to single handedly carry games", and the role isn't built to "carry" games in the conventional sense.
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The five roles aren't just what you see in most meta games. People often forget that the meta (AD carry, AP mid, support, jungle, top bruiser) is just a strategy that's been developed and refined into THE BEST strategy. There are holes in the strategy, just like any other. Pro teams are starting to switch up lanes and put insane pressure on turrets. This denies farm to the solo lane player and forces jungle to be everywhere at once to defend.
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On August 13 2012 12:18 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 00:08 rob.au wrote:
It would be better if they made the support role more active throughout the whole game, ie if supports could get more useful activatable items, and all of their abilities were useful in teamfights throughout the game. It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun. Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want. Soraka's silence is underrated. It's a 2.6 second silence on a 7 second cd without cdr. Supports usually get to 30%+ cdr so it's a 2.6 second silence on a ~5 second cd. It also has like a 700 range or something.
When you remember that it's her only form of cc, you won't feel so good when you look at other supports.
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I'm failing to see how removing a duo lane and imitating a top lane would create more diversity. In fact, would that be the opposite?
How is support a filler role? Are medics fillers in war? Are doctors less important than soldiers? This discussion is the perfect example of the ignorance toward the importance of the support role among the community.
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On August 13 2012 13:16 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 12:18 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 02:54 obesechicken13 wrote:
[quote]
It'd be pretty cool if supports didn't scale with gold at all (no ap ratios) but just had really strong abilities that were always useful. But making a lot of active items that helped the team would possibly just get bruisers and junglers to buy them too. Eg. top getting randuins. Then what? Ali top has a randuins, shurelias, and wota and soraka bot has an aegis. I wonder who's going to have more fun.
Someone made a really good point about how in twisted treeline (and also in dominion imo) many classes of champions are simply unviable because they can't 1v1 fight. The fewer people there are the harder it is for a squishy to stay safe. And that was why 5v5 has always been the staple; not because 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v6 were never tried, but rather because 5v5 always led to more interesting strategies. I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists. And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank. I don't get this post. Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible. As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want. Soraka's silence is underrated. It's a 2.6 second silence on a 7 second cd without cdr. Supports usually get to 30%+ cdr so it's a 2.6 second silence on a ~5 second cd. It also has like a 700 range or something. When you remember that it's her only form of cc, you won't feel so good when you look at other supports.
Well, CC isn't the only thing that's important. Increased magic resist, armor when you heal someone, global heal. There's not a single other support that can assist another champion on the other side of the map (unless you count support ashe or something like that).
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While the conversation has kind of drifted away from the 4v4 question, I think 6v6 would be even more interesting for lane pick dynamics. There will be some very real interaction between abilities, and more interaction is always nice.
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On August 13 2012 19:44 tissue wrote:
While the conversation has kind of drifted away from the 4v4 question, I think 6v6 would be even more interesting for lane pick dynamics. There will be some very real interaction between abilities, and more interaction is always nice.
We would just get 2 supports then...
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The premise IS terrible. It starts with stating that having a champ that doesn't rely (as much) on farm is bad game design, but never says WHY it's bad game design.
I happen to enjoy it that way. All of my attention (when I'm support, on bot) is in:
A: Ensuring you're getting fed on minions
B: Ensuring we take advantage of every opportunity to nail them if they're out of position
C: Ensuring you're safe
D: Preventing the enemy bot lane from farming.
I'm jockying for position with their bottom lane, I don't have time to dick around with last hitting minions, that's your job.
Support in the bottom lane isn't about finding something to do with the last player slot. Support in the bottom lane is about making up for weaknesses your (current meta) AD carry has.
In the mid lane, if I pick, say, Annie. And you pick LeBlanc, I'm fucked. I mean, maybe I get out of the lane without dying, but if we're equal skill-levels, I'm probably not going to win that lane, and, if you're abiding the current meta, there's not much you can do about it except frequent ganks.
In the bottom lane, the same would be true. AD carries are very good, and need to be in the game somewhere...so if you pair them up together, again, you get counterpicked. The support is about making up the difference in the counter pick.
Say, you get an AD carry and you're paired up against Urgot. Part of his kit is just poking you out of the lane. So maybe your support takes a champ with a heal to make up for it.
Essentially, what I'm getting at is this: The 5v5 current format gives you everything you want from the 4v4, plus some. It gives extra dynamic to the lane the support is in. If you remove it, if you remove the fourth, each lane becomes a counterpick, and there's really only one way to do it, since removing anyone from anywhere would be giving up a lane.
With the current, 5v5 setup, you don't HAVE to have a support. It's just the current meta. It's entirely possible your 5th could be specifically for counter jungling. Or two bruisers on top to push the other guy out of the lane. Or your support could support the middle. Hell, you can get a shen with teleport and have him just support the entire map.
5v5 offers choices 4v4 doesn't. Just because you don't like the current choices doesn't mean it isn't worthy.
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On August 13 2012 13:34 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 13:16 Dark_Chill wrote:On August 13 2012 12:18 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 12:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 11:46 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 11:10 Craton wrote:On August 13 2012 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:On August 13 2012 08:59 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 13 2012 08:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:
[quote]
I don't think the phrase "supports scale with gold" is a really accurate statement. They get philo/hog/gp5s for the sake of getting more money for wards and the eventual shurelias/aegis/etc. depending on the needs of your team once you start racking up assists.
And what abilities are you talking about that aren't useful? Alistar W/Q/R are always useful abilities (and the E is good for those clutch heals). So is Soraka W, E, and R (and the Q is good for lowering MR I guess). Sona ult is great, the move speed debuff is good, and the passives on each aura is great to have. Taric has good auras. Leona has amazing abilities, and Janna is awesome with her abilities too. Oh, and Blitzcrank.
I don't get this post.
Supports are good because their abilities are amazing regardless of damage. They don't need farm, they don't need a lot of items, and they have abilities that keep the most important people on your team alive as long as possible.
As a result, support is a different playstyle, one of effectively managing resources and awareness. I never said their abilities weren't useful. Sona's ult is useful, but annie and cass do pretty much the same thing in most team fights with their ults. I want sona's ult to have more effect than annie or cass's. Like maybe sona should get a stronger slow than other champs because she's a support, and her ult should last longer. But then again people do play some supports like nunu top, and if supports abilities were made to scale without any gold then Riot would be shoehorning some champs into a certain role. This is something they say they don't want to do, but then again they did nerf janna and soraka mid. If Riot implemented a sudden death feature where both teams were to lose a member around the 20/30 minute mark, then both teams would remove their 0 cs support rather than a low cs jungler. Why are you only comparing their ultimates in your example? 'cause how else are you going to tint things to appear your way? fuck I've been seen through. Well it is the most noticeable effect in deciding who wins teamfights. I would argue that on certain supports, there are other abilities that make a huge different. Like alistar w/q, Leona's getting not only a good ulti, but a good zenith blade and stun, blitzcrank with a good pull, soraka with a good silence, etc. etc. I think blitz and leona are pretty cool late game. Only a handful of champs like naut and ashe have comparably long and easy to land cc like Leona's. I'd like it to be a bit stronger than an ashe ult in some way though. Blitz is definitely a nicely done support since his Q is relevant all game long. I would say that soraka's silence is something that's outdone by many skills including kassadin's Q in every situation late game and that's not what I want. Soraka's silence is underrated. It's a 2.6 second silence on a 7 second cd without cdr. Supports usually get to 30%+ cdr so it's a 2.6 second silence on a ~5 second cd. It also has like a 700 range or something. When you remember that it's her only form of cc, you won't feel so good when you look at other supports. Well, CC isn't the only thing that's important. Increased magic resist, armor when you heal someone, global heal. There's not a single other support that can assist another champion on the other side of the map (unless you count support ashe or something like that).
I'm not saying Soraka's not good, or not good at supporting her team. He said Soraka's silence is underrated, and the reason for that is probably that it's the only cc in her kit, and it's not as strong as other supports' cc. This doesn't make it bad, it just makes it seem weaker in comparison when being looked on by other players. The other reason is that the cc is just sort of there. Soraka protects and keeps her carry ready for battle with mana and heals and stat increases, so people will think less of the silence, no matter how good it is.
Thinking about the OP, I think I found out what the true message was. It's another one of those "no one likes playing supports" threads. It's not about them being bad design or if it would improve the game overall. It's a problem found a lot in LoL, where no one wants to be stuck playing support, and might even dodge or afk instead of playing it.
There are solutions to this other than just taking out the class entirely, which strikes as just a terrible cop-out, instead of a well thought-out decision.
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EPT
