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[MLG] Summer Arena 2012 Wrap-up

Forum Index > LoL General
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MoonBear
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-21 22:29:47
August 07 2012 17:41 GMT
#1

Table of Contents




Introduction



Results and Standings



Koreans versus Foreigners



An Analysis of Azubu's Gameplay




Introduction


MLG Summer Arena was hyped as one of the first big clashes between the Koreans and the best of North America outside of Korean soil. CLG and has long touted the Koreans as being one of the best in the scene and relocated themselves to Korea to train for the Season 2 World Championships, with Dignitas also jumping at the opportunity. Yet amongst the community there was still a flicker of doubt. Surely the Koreans weren't that good? Surely it was just CLG over-hyping the Koreans after a poor performance in OGN Season 1 and multiple team issues?

That question has now been laid to rest. In an uncanny resemblance to MLG Starcraft, the Koreans came, they saw, and then they took our prize money. There can no longer be any doubt. The Koreans are here, and they are here to win.

Results and Standings


1st - [image loading] - Azubu Blaze
2nd - [image loading] - Team Solomid (TSM)
3rd - [image loading] - Curse.NA (Crs.NA)
4th -
[image loading]
- Bacon Lovers Are Crazy Kool (Black)

Koreans versus Foreigners

By Chiharu Harukaze


Starcraft has often been broken into two groups. There are the Koreans, seen as elite machines programmed to do nothing but win at Starcraft. And then there is everyone else, grouped under the banner of "Foreigners".

There has long been discussion amongst the community about how Koreans simply train harder and work harder. The "Korean Training House Mentality", where Koreans will lock themselves in a room and do nothing by analyse games and practise all day, is often touted as one of their key strengths. It is perhaps exaggerated by many in the community, but the chilling effect Koreans have had in Starcraft is very real. Ever since the Koreans first landed at MLG, they have won 11 MLG titles, compared to only 1 by a Foreigner. The same has happened in IEM Season VI, with 5 Korean titles to only 1 non-Korean win.

There is the very real risk that Koreans will overrun the League of Legends scene. It is perhaps telling that many Korean teams refuse to stream their scrims and even their solo queue practise. Also, there is a sense of national pride that Koreans have that is not found amongst foreign teams. When you play against a Korean team, you play not only against the team itself but also against every single person they are friends with. They will have discussed together exactly how to dissect your play and counter it. Indeed, in the first Season of the OGN League, Xenics Storm revealed that in order to defeat CLG they combined forces with Startale to plan out builds and strategies. It is a level of co-operation that is not commonly found amongst NA and EU teams. This will likely become increasingly important in Season 3, with Riot's announcement of continuous professional leagues and competitions.

Interestingly, this competition may start to alienate the profession players from their fans. Fans of professional teams love to watch their favourite play stream, and listen in to them in casual solo queue environments. But in a competitive environment fuelled by money, there is increasing pressure on teams to focus harder on practise and less time with fan interaction.

Yet perhaps not all hope is lost. Starcraft players such as (Z)Stephano can go toe-to-toe with the Koreans consistently yet not subscribe to the Korean method of training. Could there be perhaps another answer; the elusive "None of the Above" in a multiple choice question filled with wrong answers? Time will tell.

An Analysis of Azubu's Gameplay

By MoonBear with special thanks to TheYango


Fantasy Mech. 3 Hatch Muta. The 6.43 Blink Dagger Era. All are defining moments in competitive esports; where a single strategy completely blows open the metagame and changes the history of competitive gameplay forever. Yet these inventions were not complete revolutions. Each of these strategies were built upon existing theory. However, the architects of these builds identified key changes that took these existing ideas to a whole new level. Fantasy's vulture drops. Saviour's muta defence and lurker traps. VirtusPro's full pressure ganks. Simple ideas created whole new paradigms and tactics that are still copied by players today.

League of Legends is no exception. Ideas such as counter-jungling and cheese compositions were not unknown qualities. However, it wasn't until IEM Kiev that teams finally put two and two together when Moscow Five burst onto the scene and stormed into the finals undefeated before crushing TSM. The same applies to the League of Legends Season 1 Championships, when the European Teams took the golden crown with their Support+AD duo lane and double AP strategy. The strict lane compositions of a Support and AD Carry duo lane, AP Mid lane, and Solo Bruiser/AP side lane are still held in the strictest reverence by all players despite repeated efforts to break the meta.

Azubu's gameplay heralds the second big shift in the metagame. While much more subtle, its effects are going to be felt for months to come. Interestingly, Azubu's play style has many similarities to the current paradigm of thinking that have been developed Chinese DotA. In some respects, it is perhaps unsurprising that many of the cutting edge theories in DotA are applicable to LoL.

There are three key aspects that Azubu has taken and made their own.

1. Early game aggression to secure a team lead
2. Cost-efficient and team-based item builds on all champions
3. Timing based movement and synergy



1. Early game aggression to secure a team lead


We have all heard of the theories behind early game aggression. From the statistic that the team with a 10% gold lead by 12 minutes wins 90% of the time to the idea of the "snowball meta" champion by Chaox, this idea is not new. However, Azubu completely changes the way teams will now have to approach the early game.

Currently, much of the EU/NA meta revolves around farming, with a heavy emphasis on the laning phase. It is common to see players sit in lane for up to even 30 minutes, with an abundance of wards everywhere to keep jungle ganks out. The real action does not occur until teams have farmed up big items and are content to fight. Games are then often decided when these fights break out over key objectives such as Blue Buffs, Dragons and Barons. However, at MLG Summer Arena, this all changed.

TSM wanted to lane to farm their power. Azubu just didn't want a laning phase at all.

"What's the point of going late-game if you can push and win in 20?"
- Navi`Dendi, famous DotA player


In most of Azubu's games, they often lane swapped and tried to take an early tower. This is the most obvious form of early game aggression to secure a lead that we see. However they continued this style of play even in the last game of the Finals (the remade game), even when it appeared that they were playing a more "standard" game. Taking early towers helps Azubu further their strategy, but it is not the main idea behind it.

The real principle behind Azubu is creating a low economy game. This has many similarities to the early metagame in Starcraft2, when Korean players would use incredibly aggressive openings such as one-base 9pool or proxy-2-gate to force low economy situations. By forcing aggression, Azubu takes the emphasis off last hitting minions and forces teams to respond to them. Many EU and NA teams are not comfortable with playing in these scenarios. Once Azubu seizes the initiative they then try to create an early game lead and ride that to victory. Often this lead will take the form of an early tower. Indeed, in these low economy games we often saw both teams sporting very low cs scores at 20 minutes for a professional game. However, by taking towers and champion kills, Azubu finds an alternative source of income that both gives them a gold advantage as well as helping them dictate tempo.

Tempo is the second key principle behind Azubu's early game play. In the first game we saw CptJack on Sivir with a massive farm lead over Chaox despite the fact that both teams had been forced into a low economy game. By being able to control the tempo of the game, Azubu forced TSM to respond to them. That meant that Azubu could create opportunities for them to farm, as TSM were forced to react to Azubu instead of going out of their tower vision and making plays or farming. In this respects, it is perhaps similar to the old dominance of Faerie decks in Magic the Gathering. Seize tempo of the game, create an advantage both in resources and game presence, and then proceed to bury your opponents in that advantage. Even if your opponent can find an opening to regain their footing, you should be ahead far enough that they never quite catch back up to you.

It is perhaps telling that Reapered (Azubu's top lane player) often bought Philosopher's Stone on Irelia and sometimes even a Heart of Gold, even in a 1v2 lane when he was losing. A curious choice in today's meta. The prevailing theory in many schools of thought is that when you are behind and getting crushed in lane, getting GP10 items only delays you being relevant in the game and only really matter in the super long run, by which point you have likely lost. And in any case, why buy GP10 items when you could buy something that actually gives you an advantage right here and now like a Phage? However, Azubu completely forgo the laning phase and force both teams to give up time to farm. Suddenly, in a roaming environment, GP10 items are king.

But what to do about wards? Wards have been the bane of early game aggression. Teams have tried getting early an Oracles Elixir to help. The Saintvicious rule that many Western junglers use is to buy Oracles only once you have Mercs, and a gold generating item (often HoG) to ensure you have the survivability to support the Oracles. But still ward coverage is prevalent enough to prevent ganks. If they clear a ward, fall back and just reward again in a moment. Azubu's answer to this? Just get Oracles faster.

Often, we would see their support or jungler walking around with Oracles only sporting basic Boots and maybe a PhiloStone. Having already forced a low economy games, suddenly wards are a precious and valuable resource. If you lose a ward, you likely don't have the money to buy another ward because it is too early in the game. Once the wards are clear, the jungler has free reign to move undetected. Furthermore, Oracles helps Azubu further their tempo advantage. With map control, they can proceed to find farm in a low economy environment that the other team is unable to find. It is undeniable however that such an early Oracles on an essentially "naked" champion carries immense risk. But to Azubu, the upside is worth so much they are willing to take that risk. With proper teamwork, communication and calls, the Oracles carrier should never find themselves in danger. And if the Oracles is ever taken out, the team should have already secured a large enough group advantage that the Oracles has already paid for itself through intangible benefits if not actual ward kill bounty.

This low economy environment is the first crux of Azubu's plays, and is integral in helping them create an advantage and then keep it for as long as possible. The margins of their advantage may sometimes seem small. However, all Azubu needs is the smallest of snowballs to start the boulder that will cascade down the mountain and crush everything before it.



2. Cost-efficient and team-based item builds on all champions

Starcraft is famous for its timing attacks and watertight builds that are a core of professional gameplay. Each decision, even those as small as worker count on individual mineral patches, is designed to synergise with the next until a key timing is reached. Azubu has taken the same principles behind Starcraft timing based builds and applied them to League of Legends. This bares many similarities with the major advancements in DotA theory from the Chinese teams.

Abuzu prioritises aura and team utility items. In many of their games, we would see the AP player buy an Abyssal Sceptre as their first major item, or finish the full WotA rather than just sit on Hextech Revolver. Aegis was often a shared burden between the jungler and support and rushed as fast as possible. The non-Aegis buyer would pick up the fast Oracles talked about earlier. Further advancements in item builds were often items that had secondary functions. Zhonyas Hourglass, Locket of the Iron Solari, Randuin's Omen, Shurelya's Reverie, Zeke's Herald. All of these items have combinations of active components, auras and utility. All of these items are designed to allow the team to be mobile and continuously moving, applying pressure on the map. Even the AD Carry, the role with the least flexible build, was no exception. In the group stages, CptJack would consistently get a Bloodthirster first on many AD champions, forgoing the expensive Infinity Edge. Bloodthirster was better choice in a low economy environment, it also allowed him to continue healing while moving between lanes and keep roaming with his team.

The idea of getting aura and team-based items is itself not new. Neither are aura rushes or naked Oracles on supports/junglers, although it is still rare. However, the biggest change we have seen how strongly Azubu places such a strong emphasis on their team-supporting items. They even change their entire farm mentality to support it.

For nearly the entirety of LoL, and in much of western DotA, support items have been considered something your support gets when they finally bank the money for it. In fact, the idea of the 0cs support is burned into the brains of the LoL community. However, Azubu has recognised just how valuable support items are. During the group stages, whenever someone recalled to heal or buy, Azubu`Lustboy would often and proceed to farm the minions there.

Take the third TSM v Azubu game from the Group Stages. Lulu rotated mid to farm the waves there. Mid lane rotated to the jungle or recalled. The jungler rotated to top lane or recalled. Top lane recalled or went bot. Like clockwork, Azubu would shift lanes to utilise their time and gold efficiently. But throughout this, Lulu would find farm. Indeed, by the mid-game mark, Lulu was sporting over 60 cs. That's unheard of in professional play. That's almost the level of farm some junglers would have. But there is a very strong reasoning behind this.

Supports are roles who are expected to benefit the team by getting off their rotation of utility/CC skills and heavily influencing fights through intangible benefits rather than damage. Having the survivability to cast those spells a second time doubles your usefulness in a fight. This is even more relevant in LoL thanks to the ability to buy Cooldown Reduction. CDR items not only allow you to get your key spells off more often, they are often paired with resistance or health stats which supports love. Furthermore the low cooldowns on spells in LoL compared to DotA should make Supports more influential as less is needed to survive to get your second, or even third spell rotation off. More influential spells means more powerful teamfights. More powerful teamfights means winning.

Indeed, this idea has been one of the key advancements of Chinese DotA over the past few years and responsible for the success of many Chinese teams. It perhaps somewhat curious that the World Elite League of Legends Team was not the first to utilise this especially as 820 and 2009, the WE DotA managers, were the captains of teams at the forefront of Chinese DotA development. Their DotA philosophy however, takes these ideas even further than we have seen in League of Legends.

Just like in LoL, support items are all very powerful items that contribute to all aspects of a team. However in DotA, anyone that gets farm should leverage the strength of these items. The role of the carry is not to selfishly farm items for himself, but to carry the team to victory. If that means buying items that are seen as "support" items, so be it. In DotA, we have seen this lead to heros such as Dragon Knight buying items like Pipe of Insight and Nature's Prophets buying Mekansm, over more selfish item choices such as BKB or Hand of Midas.

League of Legends has not reached this level of item theory evolution yet. Caster champions in LoL are capable of scaling, unlike their DotA counterparts, so we may not see Shurelya-rush Ahri in tournament play any time soon either. But there is no doubt that as we move to the Season 2 Championships, and with big changes planned for items in Season 3, itemisation theory in LoL will undergo even bigger revolutions.



3. Timing based movement


Timing has been a key aspect of real-time competitive play since the very beginning. But again, Azubu takes existing ideas and proceeds to push the boundaries further with them. Anyone capable of listening to Korean will have been rather surprised listening in to the voice communications of Azubu, especially if they were used to that of TSM or CLG. The Koreans time everything. From Summoner Spells, to wards, to the cooldown on spells they time it all. It is perhaps the unsurprising evolution from timing objectives such as Baron. After all, these things have known times and can be predicted. But it is the first time we have really seen a team take these things serious enough to continuously make a note of them throughout a game.

But timing is not just about making notes on your opponent. Timing is also about creating windows of opportunity for yourself and then using them. And this is where Azubu shines.

Bloodthirster as the first item on an AD Carry in lane has often to be considered superior to an Infinity Edge if you can use it to bully the other AD while you have an item advantage. This idea demonstrates the concept of a timing window. However, this example shows a weak example of being able to use your timing window effectively. In other games such as Starcraft, timing windows are designed to hit at a key point in the game when you have a clear advantage and can capitalise upon it to gain a further advantage either by doing damage to your opponent or seizing tempo to dictate the rest of the game. For example, Saviour's famous 3 hatch muta build was designed to contain a Terran player, take control of the game and place the Zerg player in the lead. (This is of course a simplified explanation.)

League of Legends suffers a unique problem that many other games do not have. The first problem is that each game is vastly different from the next due to everything from picks and bans to laning strategies. Therefore, there are very few standard methods to consistently create an advantage. The second problem is that are very few methods to utilise an advantage. The highest level of items in LoL, such as Infinity Edge and Trinity Force, are incredibly cost efficient. This means that it is rarely a viable strategy to amass many second-tier pure mid-game items such as Spirit Visage because in the long run you will be trumped in item quality by the other team. And with only 6 item slots, every one of them must count. As a result, we see two teams building incredibly similar items and the only difference is how fast they can achieve them. Therefore, the timing windows teams can create are purely dependent on their ability to farm as hard as possible.

Azubu eschew this idea and instead create timings of their own. This is where all their previous ideas come together. First, they create a low economy environment and seize control. This is perhaps the closest LoL will get to the equivalent of an opening build in Starcraft. Secondly, they obtain cost-efficient and team-based items. With these items, they then immediately go force a teamfight at an objective, often a tower. But how does this differ from the current timing windows teams use?

Azubu's cost-efficient and team-based items give them an immediate power spike they can take advantage of. Think back to the Bloodthirster and Infinity Edge comparison. The timing for a BT AD Carry to dominate an IE AD Carry is limited by how fast the other AD Carry can finish the IE. In a regular farming game, this is often a very small window. However in a low economy game this window is magnified, allowing the BT AD Carry more time to be stronger. Furthermore, by ending the laning phase as soon as possible and forcing big fights, the BT AD Carry shows their strength even more as they will be outputting more damage and surviving for longer. This magnifies the advantage the BT AD Carry has compared to a regular game when both players would likely continue to sit in lane and farm and maybe take a tower.

It is not just item based timings that Azubu uses. They use take advantage of the times when they are higher level thanks to successful ganks. Take for instance one of their games when they had a Maokai and Taric. Maokai's ultimate and Taric's W both increase the survivability of their team. This is not something new. However, what Azubu does is as soon as these champions reach key levels (level 9 for maxed Taric Shatter, or level 11 for Maokai's second level of ultimate) they will go force a fight. When Maokai reached his second level of ultimate, they marched up to a tower, threw down his ultimate in front of the tower and challenged their opponents to fight them and there as they proceeded to attack the tower. This is something teams will rarely do. Often, many teams prefer to wait for a positioning advantage to start a teamfight or wouldn't think to delay a push by twenty seconds more to gain one more key level. However, Azubu create their own advantage and force the other team to fight while they have a key advantage.

Another great example of a timing that Azubu utilised was in the Group Stages against TSM. Using a pink ward, they watched a TSM ward time out. Once vision was down for TSM, they immediately moved in on Baron and secured it for free. Azubu recognised that TSM would not have vision and would not suspect them to be in that area for approximately fifteen seconds. After all, if your ward on Baron just timed out having not seen anything, you would not suspect the enemy team to be near there. Nearly every team kills any wards as soon as they are spotted. Therefore they saw a timing window they could hit and took the opportunity presented to them.

By keeping track of the timers or approximate times on everything in game, Azubu can function like clockwork and take advantage of any window of opportunity given to them. They understand how long they have to utilise an advantage they hold. But most importantly, they are capable of creating their own windows of opportunity, and taking advantage of these timing windows. And all of this is thanks to their early game play, and careful itemisation choices.



There is perhaps one final aspect of Azubu that should be touched upon. Unlike everything written before, it is not unique to them but it is worth mentioning.

Supports have the unique burden of needing to maintain ward vision for their team while still being gold starved. Even with GP10 items and openings to farm they are still under immense pressure to make big plays for their team. Indeed, it is often said that the support is the only reason any bot lane ever wins. Allow us to consider some of the most fearsome bottom lanes currently in League. CLG.NA's duo of Chauster and Doublelift. CLG.EU's duo of Krepo and Yellowpete. TSM's Xpecial and Chaox. TPA's Mistake and Bebe. WE's If and WeiXiao. All of these duos have something in common that teams such as Curse.NA lack.

Each of these supports have played carries at a high level before.

"The best support players are the ones who used to play carry."
- WE`820, famous DotA player and manager


Supports who have never played carry positions before don't really develop a proper feel for how much each point of gold is really worth to them. Neither do they truly understand lane dynamics from the perspective of their team mates and what to expect. Indeed, many of these top supports have also played Carries before, which has helped them develop reactionary senses, reflexes and the ability to quickly analyse a team fight. For example, Chauster was once CLG's AD Carry and temporarily their AP Carry. Xpecial was an AP Carry before being picked up by TSM, and consistently beats Regi 1v1.

When all is said an done however, Azubu has shown us some of the biggest developments in League of Legends theory to date. As I finish, it is pertinent to note that many other successful teams have taken existing theory from DotA and used them to their success whether they realise it or not. The classic CLG.NA splitpush composition. The cold and efficient CLG.EU 4-protect-1 lategame farm compositions. The brutally relentless Moscow Five roaming gank squads and counter-jungling. It is possible the next big idea will come from DotA as well.

One of the biggest changes that we may see in LoL is the adaptation of the Chinese DotA "1st position, 2nd position, etc." hierarchy, where players are given priority on farm and gold. In a low economy game, every point of gold becomes increasingly important and must be allocated appropriately. With the AD Carry scaling the hardest it will likely be the 1st position, with the AP Carry 2nd position and everyone else somewhere from 3rd to 5th. Indeed, if the low economy meta becomes standard, we may even see a big change in popular hero picks. AP Mids such as Swain may become the new FotM as bruisers, junglers and supports become unable to afford key items such as Frozen Heart.

Azubu's playstyle will likely be at the forefront of the Season 2 Championships with other teams likely to copy their style and use it themselves. Dignitas recently claimed the IPL Elite Circuit by finally beating Team Dynamic with ease thanks to the Korean style of play and exorcising their ghosts. And they will not be the only ones trying to adapt the Korean style for their own use.

Teams will have to come up with all new strategies to answer the question: How will we respond to Azubu's playstyle? It will be interesting to see their answer.

Final Notes:
This write-up was brought to you by NeoIllusions, JBright, MoonBear and Chiharu Harukaze with special thanks to TheYango.
MLG Anaheim Wrap-up — Dreamhack Summer Wrap-Up
ModeratorA dream. Do you have one that has cursed you like that? Or maybe... a wish?
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
August 07 2012 18:03 GMT
#2
Wow, AMAZING write up. I agree with a lot of it.

The intro to new strategy was refreshing, especially to a lot of LoL fans that didn't keep up with Korean games in OGN.

As of now, it's just a matter of NA and EU teams to just understand this type of aggression.

I disagree with what some of the NA pro's say about how this is just a "strategy", like it's some kind of cheesy build. In my opinion is a way of thinking, you could essentially reach these same goals with a variety of comps, and different power curve timings. It's simply the way koreans think about the game is why it's so dominant, taking advantage of every little thing.
liftlift > tsm
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
August 07 2012 18:09 GMT
#3
Fantastic writeup.
It really seems like a shame that something of this quailty won't be seen by the majority of users on the site (or others). Really wish there was a TL for LoL (not that I don't love our subforum!)
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Perplex
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1693 Posts
August 07 2012 18:15 GMT
#4
On August 08 2012 03:09 WaveofShadow wrote:
Fantastic writeup.
It really seems like a shame that something of this quailty won't be seen by the majority of users on the site (or others). Really wish there was a TL for LoL (not that I don't love our subforum!)


I think even if there was a TL for LoL, I'd still prefer this subforum. Having a smaller community is so much better imo :D


Really fantastic write-up by the way guys. Completely accurate, and these wrap-ups will serve as great historical records down the road.
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/24238059
SeeDLiNg
Profile Joined January 2010
United States690 Posts
August 07 2012 18:26 GMT
#5
This is brilliant! Thank you
AsmodeusXI
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States15536 Posts
August 07 2012 18:32 GMT
#6
Way to go all, and 2x so for some (who are already asking for double the praise ^^)
WriterTL > RL. BNet: Asmodeus#1187 - LoL: DJForeclosure - Steam: asmodeusxi | www.n3rddimension.com
h3r1n6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Iceland2039 Posts
August 07 2012 18:37 GMT
#7
Pretty awesome write-up. Makes me much more excited about how the teams will adapt to this style and how it will develop.
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
August 07 2012 18:38 GMT
#8
excellent post!
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
TheKefka
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Croatia11752 Posts
August 07 2012 18:44 GMT
#9
MoonBearu is #1
Cackle™
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21540 Posts
August 07 2012 18:48 GMT
#10
Big thumps up. Awesome work
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
August 07 2012 18:50 GMT
#11
Very nice, thanks!
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
Dandel Ion
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria17960 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 18:50:47
August 07 2012 18:50 GMT
#12
On August 08 2012 03:44 TheKefka wrote:
MoonBearu is #1

He's #2 as well, right?


€: Awesome writeup, 10/10, would read again
A backwards poet writes inverse.
FindMeInKenya
Profile Joined February 2011
United States797 Posts
August 07 2012 18:52 GMT
#13
Great write-up. Please continue to do this!!!
JBright
Profile Joined September 2010
Vancouver14381 Posts
August 07 2012 18:57 GMT
#14
Great job MoonBear! And Yango as well for providing insight for this piece.
ModeratorThe good and the wise lead quiet lives. Neo's #1 Frenemy and nightmare.
AsnSensation
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany24009 Posts
August 07 2012 18:58 GMT
#15
Great Writeup guys.
XenOmega
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2822 Posts
August 07 2012 19:07 GMT
#16
Great reading. Definately interesting!
XaCez
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden6991 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 19:10:09
August 07 2012 19:10 GMT
#17
Excellent write-up, will be interesting to follow the scene for the months to come.

Also found an error under Part 2.
Abuzu prioritises aura
People get too easily offended by people getting too easily offended by the word rape.
GrimAngel
Profile Joined September 2008
United States416 Posts
August 07 2012 19:11 GMT
#18
That was really amazing. It really opened my eyes to all the complexities that I wouldn't have known otherwise. Thanks for doing this!
Wan step ahead!
MooMooMugi
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States10531 Posts
August 07 2012 19:12 GMT
#19
It brought tears to my eyes on how you guys dissected Azubu's playstyle piece by piece and analyzed their unique aggression.

Thank you writers!
|LoL & SC2 IGN both my username| Just livin' the baylife| Hearthstone ID: MooMooMugi#1544| Dank Memer since 2011
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32273 Posts
August 07 2012 19:12 GMT
#20
Loved it.
Moderator<:3-/-<
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25976 Posts
August 07 2012 19:17 GMT
#21
Really fun to read Thanks guys.
Moderator
executortaszadar
Profile Joined August 2012
United States4 Posts
August 07 2012 19:18 GMT
#22
wow. fantastic!


i wish there were more analyses like this one. very well written.
Esse Quam Videri
sinkpet
Profile Joined April 2010
Finland16 Posts
August 07 2012 19:21 GMT
#23
Really good writeup guys!
VirgilSC2
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States6151 Posts
August 07 2012 19:27 GMT
#24
Awesome amazing write-up guys.

As someone who couldn't watch the Arena, hearing a dissection of how Azubu managed to take the weekend (almost) undefeated really opened my eyes to how seriously the Koreans are approaching the game.
Clarity Gaming #1 Fan | Avid MTG Grinder | @VirgilSC2
Arbax
Profile Joined June 2012
United States80 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 19:31:01
August 07 2012 19:30 GMT
#25
{Cloud Templar Jungler of Azubu Frost has mentioned on the korean side while he was doing commentating for mlg matches of azubu Blaze on his stream, "Azubu Blaze has only used 60% of what they have been practicing due to there match coming up vs Xenics Storm" Everything You have seen so far are all the same repetition they have been using during Season 1 Champions as they did not see any need to pull anything else out at the mlg.}

I'm really looking forward to the match on wednesday hoping to see what else they have up there sleeves.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
August 07 2012 19:32 GMT
#26
This write up is just so well done, wish it was on front page of TL, definitely up to par with the pieces that have been up there. Great great great job, keep it up!
liftlift > tsm
nojitosunrise
Profile Joined August 2011
United States6188 Posts
August 07 2012 19:36 GMT
#27
This is an amazing write up. Great job. Wonderful read.

I can't wait for the next one.
Goshawk.
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United Kingdom5338 Posts
August 07 2012 19:43 GMT
#28
Amazing read. Moonbear fighting!
Live2Win *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6657 Posts
August 07 2012 19:43 GMT
#29
Looooooved it, really awesome!!!
SAY YES TO STIM KIDS!!! XD
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 19:47:16
August 07 2012 19:45 GMT
#30
good writeup, however,

pink ward baron trick was CLG.EU vs. WE (unless it happened in both games)
Carrilord has arrived.
Perplex
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1693 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 19:58:58
August 07 2012 19:57 GMT
#31
Someone commented on the reddit topic:

I believe your forums are about to get an influx of new members (for better or worse).


Probably true. Brace yourselves, redditors are coming.

also, inb4 RoG tries to poach moonbear
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/24238059
MoonBear
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
August 07 2012 20:06 GMT
#32
On August 08 2012 04:57 Perplex wrote:
also, inb4 RoG tries to poach moonbear

Once upon a time when I LR'ed SC2, several large organisations contacted me and asked me to write for them. I turned them all down.

Fear not. I'm not going anywhere.
ModeratorA dream. Do you have one that has cursed you like that? Or maybe... a wish?
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
August 07 2012 20:08 GMT
#33
On August 08 2012 05:06 MoonBear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2012 04:57 Perplex wrote:
also, inb4 RoG tries to poach moonbear

Once upon a time when I LR'ed SC2, several large organisations contacted me and asked me to write for them. I turned them all down.

Fear not. I'm not going anywhere.

Never question moonbears loyalty ever again, <3
liftlift > tsm
Vaporized
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1471 Posts
August 07 2012 20:08 GMT
#34
good job. really clear writing.
hysterial
Profile Joined April 2011
United States2044 Posts
August 07 2012 20:11 GMT
#35
Looks like TL is going to get a ton of new members, this is fantastic!
Perplex
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1693 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 20:14:57
August 07 2012 20:14 GMT
#36
On August 08 2012 05:06 MoonBear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2012 04:57 Perplex wrote:
also, inb4 RoG tries to poach moonbear

Once upon a time when I LR'ed SC2, several large organisations contacted me and asked me to write for them. I turned them all down.

Fear not. I'm not going anywhere.


thank god, I don't know what we'd do without our Moonbear Chiharu Harukaze ;p
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/24238059
nosliw
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2716 Posts
August 07 2012 20:18 GMT
#37
Wow! TL best LoL news site?
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
August 07 2012 20:19 GMT
#38
mabye now people will stop asking what the equivalent of TL is for LOL
Carrilord has arrived.
nojitosunrise
Profile Joined August 2011
United States6188 Posts
August 07 2012 20:33 GMT
#39
On August 08 2012 05:19 Slusher wrote:
mabye now people will stop asking what the equivalent of TL is for LOL


TL?

TL-ception
jaybrundage
Profile Joined December 2009
United States3921 Posts
August 07 2012 20:37 GMT
#40
Great write up. Azubu changing the meta
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.
SgtSquiglz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States668 Posts
August 07 2012 20:42 GMT
#41
Fantastic. Love how in-depth this gets.
Please do more in the future!
Take anything I say with a grain of salt.....I suck at this game. Also, Go Blue!
captharlock
Profile Joined September 2010
United States223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 20:52:21
August 07 2012 20:51 GMT
#42
It was a very good in-depth review.

I would like to hear your thoughts on that one game Blaze lost to Curse. I'm maybe wrong but it looked like Curse was able to adjust that 2nd game to Blaze's game style.
Baneslayer Angel could be hungover, slightly blind, and texting while flying and still win the game
Parnage
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States7414 Posts
August 07 2012 20:59 GMT
#43
Fantastic job. Good read <3 Will be sharing this with peoples.

-orb- Fan. Live the Nal_rA dream. || Yordles are cool.
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
August 07 2012 21:01 GMT
#44
this yango guy.
a lot of things i felt that western league was lacking azubu showcased well at this MLG (aura items soul shroud, support farm, objective and timing better). i happen to know that yango has been as well, huehuehue.
Hey! Listen!
elementz
Profile Joined October 2010
United States281 Posts
August 07 2012 21:02 GMT
#45
TSM fell into the same hole as they did with m5; they tried to emulate m5's strategy when playing against them. Because like you said in your write up "teams copy thinking it is the best way to play the game", that didn't work then and it didn't work this time, m5 back then was much more practiced on that style than TSM, and this time Blaze was much more practiced than TSM on that style of gameplay. TSM should figured out a way to mitigate the early tower advantage, and kept the bottom towers in place. (ex: Blaze forced their style by going 2v1 top, TSM followed by taking bottom tower and then swapping to take top tower, hence playing the same game Blaze played, and just trading, Blaze a lot more practiced in this gameplay than TSM --as evident by CPT Jack having 30-40 more CS than Chaox while pushing the lanes. At this point TSM should have tried to delay top going down to about ~7min mark (with help from the jungler to clear waves when they got to tower) and take a dragon to counter the gold from tower and keep both bot towers and play the farm game bot lane 2v2, while Dyrus farms at his tier 2).

Actually my example can be seen in the CLG.eu vs WE games, WE plays the same style like Blaze (actually WE vs Blaze game in OGN's group A was a close game where WE looked to have secured in the game early, and Blaze made a come back). WE got ahead vs CLG, but CLG.eu played their own game without trying to emulate a game they were not comfortable playing, and they ended up winning with some very good team fight play, and keeping the game controlled in terms of towers falling. Blaze played well, but all the teams during the Arena thought they were ready to play Blaze's style without the need for any practice on that style. Also one thing you got to do is protect your mid tower, so a good wave clear champion mid is absolutely needed, possibly building a Chalice to keep clearing none stop.

Idra said in an interview when asked about "creative plays" coming out of Koreans something to the effect: "They [Koreans] don't just make creative strategies on the fly during a game, their strategies is pre-meditated and practiced ahead of time", and that is what did it this Arena; Western teams saw the "push strategy" and they thought they could learn it on the fly (like with the m5 counter jungling a while back), and execute it better than Blaze, but they were misguided, and instead they were falling in trap of a gameplay they were not practiced well enough to play while Blaze knew how to play in that condition perfectly well.
this mah s#$%$
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
August 07 2012 21:06 GMT
#46
real elementz?
kane]deth[
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada368 Posts
August 07 2012 21:08 GMT
#47
Really insightful, thanks for the write-up.
elementz
Profile Joined October 2010
United States281 Posts
August 07 2012 21:08 GMT
#48
NO, NO, NO, made this long time before I played LoL....while I followed SC2. Now it makes me a sad panda, but I also don't want to change it.
this mah s#$%$
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
August 07 2012 21:13 GMT
#49
damn good writeup
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
Icysoul
Profile Joined December 2007
Canada254 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 21:50:51
August 07 2012 21:39 GMT
#50
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 08 2012 06:02 elementz wrote:
TSM fell into the same hole as they did with m5; they tried to emulate m5's strategy when playing against them. Because like you said in your write up "teams copy thinking it is the best way to play the game", that didn't work then and it didn't work this time, m5 back then was much more practiced on that style than TSM, and this time Blaze was much more practiced than TSM on that style of gameplay. TSM should figured out a way to mitigate the early tower advantage, and kept the bottom towers in place. (ex: Blaze forced their style by going 2v1 top, TSM followed by taking bottom tower and then swapping to take top tower, hence playing the same game Blaze played, and just trading, Blaze a lot more practiced in this gameplay than TSM --as evident by CPT Jack having 30-40 more CS than Chaox while pushing the lanes. At this point TSM should have tried to delay top going down to about ~7min mark (with help from the jungler to clear waves when they got to tower) and take a dragon to counter the gold from tower and keep both bot towers and play the farm game bot lane 2v2, while Dyrus farms at his tier 2).

Actually my example can be seen in the CLG.eu vs WE games, WE plays the same style like Blaze (actually WE vs Blaze game in OGN's group A was a close game where WE looked to have secured in the game early, and Blaze made a come back). WE got ahead vs CLG, but CLG.eu played their own game without trying to emulate a game they were not comfortable playing, and they ended up winning with some very good team fight play, and keeping the game controlled in terms of towers falling. Blaze played well, but all the teams during the Arena thought they were ready to play Blaze's style without the need for any practice on that style. Also one thing you got to do is protect your mid tower, so a good wave clear champion mid is absolutely needed, possibly building a Chalice to keep clearing none stop.

Idra said in an interview when asked about "creative plays" coming out of Koreans something to the effect: "They [Koreans] don't just make creative strategies on the fly during a game, their strategies is pre-meditated and practiced ahead of time", and that is what did it this Arena; Western teams saw the "push strategy" and they thought they could learn it on the fly (like with the m5 counter jungling a while back), and execute it better than Blaze, but they were misguided, and instead they were falling in trap of a gameplay they were not practiced well enough to play while Blaze knew how to play in that condition perfectly well.


That was exactly what i had thought when it was made clear that TSM was trying to copy blaze saying "blaze wouldnt of backed there". That was the wrong mentality to have, they can never be better than being Blaze than blaze themselves.

TSM recovered from the mentality after they were destroyed by M5, and adapted aggressive counter jungling into their tactics. Perhaps thats part of the strength of TSM, they are very adaptable to these new styles and incorporating it into their gameplay. Mechanically, TSM held up against blaze very well, farming evenly and even up in farm in some situations. But its TSM playing Blaze's game, having no response against blazes fast and powerful pushes and coordinated counter aggression.

The 5 man coordinated aggression from TSM against blaze, specifically with Dyrus teleporting from top, Regi tf from mid and odd one ganking bot, were spectacular to behold. But it is increasingly evident they did not think those through, what happens after we tower dive and kill the support? Do we have enough to handle and get away from the lightining fast responses of the Blaze counter did not go through their mind. Against lesser prepared and coordinated teams that gank would of been spectacular and yielded great results, but against similarly coordinated teams, we saw what happened: every gank became a 1-3, 1-2, 2-4 trade in blaze's favor.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
August 07 2012 21:51 GMT
#51
Tsm took the wrong approach to Blaze's style. Instead of copying them, TSM should've tried to play their own game, but make changes accordingly~
liftlift > tsm
AsnSensation
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany24009 Posts
August 07 2012 21:57 GMT
#52
On August 08 2012 06:08 elementz wrote:
NO, NO, NO, made this long time before I played LoL....while I followed SC2. Now it makes me a sad panda, but I also don't want to change it.


np bro there can only be one elements anyway, and hes not from curse.na
Visas
Profile Joined August 2010
Turkey119 Posts
August 07 2012 22:25 GMT
#53
Best Moba related article i've read. Thanks guys
Rumba Rumba Rumba Rumba Rumba
obsKura
Profile Joined March 2011
Ireland1061 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 22:27:48
August 07 2012 22:27 GMT
#54
TL is just the best when it comes to in-depth analysis. Just so many incredible, smart and intelligent people who know their shit. (:

Hope to see much more of this type of League coverage, love it. ♥
C9 ~^v^~ In EE-sama we trust. ~^v^~ C9
MinistryofPain
Profile Joined April 2011
25 Posts
August 07 2012 22:50 GMT
#55
Nice write-up man! Really enjoy this kind of stuff
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19573 Posts
August 07 2012 23:04 GMT
#56
On August 08 2012 06:39 Icysoul wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 08 2012 06:02 elementz wrote:
TSM fell into the same hole as they did with m5; they tried to emulate m5's strategy when playing against them. Because like you said in your write up "teams copy thinking it is the best way to play the game", that didn't work then and it didn't work this time, m5 back then was much more practiced on that style than TSM, and this time Blaze was much more practiced than TSM on that style of gameplay. TSM should figured out a way to mitigate the early tower advantage, and kept the bottom towers in place. (ex: Blaze forced their style by going 2v1 top, TSM followed by taking bottom tower and then swapping to take top tower, hence playing the same game Blaze played, and just trading, Blaze a lot more practiced in this gameplay than TSM --as evident by CPT Jack having 30-40 more CS than Chaox while pushing the lanes. At this point TSM should have tried to delay top going down to about ~7min mark (with help from the jungler to clear waves when they got to tower) and take a dragon to counter the gold from tower and keep both bot towers and play the farm game bot lane 2v2, while Dyrus farms at his tier 2).

Actually my example can be seen in the CLG.eu vs WE games, WE plays the same style like Blaze (actually WE vs Blaze game in OGN's group A was a close game where WE looked to have secured in the game early, and Blaze made a come back). WE got ahead vs CLG, but CLG.eu played their own game without trying to emulate a game they were not comfortable playing, and they ended up winning with some very good team fight play, and keeping the game controlled in terms of towers falling. Blaze played well, but all the teams during the Arena thought they were ready to play Blaze's style without the need for any practice on that style. Also one thing you got to do is protect your mid tower, so a good wave clear champion mid is absolutely needed, possibly building a Chalice to keep clearing none stop.

Idra said in an interview when asked about "creative plays" coming out of Koreans something to the effect: "They [Koreans] don't just make creative strategies on the fly during a game, their strategies is pre-meditated and practiced ahead of time", and that is what did it this Arena; Western teams saw the "push strategy" and they thought they could learn it on the fly (like with the m5 counter jungling a while back), and execute it better than Blaze, but they were misguided, and instead they were falling in trap of a gameplay they were not practiced well enough to play while Blaze knew how to play in that condition perfectly well.


That was exactly what i had thought when it was made clear that TSM was trying to copy blaze saying "blaze wouldnt of backed there". That was the wrong mentality to have, they can never be better than being Blaze than blaze themselves.

TSM recovered from the mentality after they were destroyed by M5, and adapted aggressive counter jungling into their tactics. Perhaps thats part of the strength of TSM, they are very adaptable to these new styles and incorporating it into their gameplay. Mechanically, TSM held up against blaze very well, farming evenly and even up in farm in some situations. But its TSM playing Blaze's game, having no response against blazes fast and powerful pushes and coordinated counter aggression.

The 5 man coordinated aggression from TSM against blaze, specifically with Dyrus teleporting from top, Regi tf from mid and odd one ganking bot, were spectacular to behold. But it is increasingly evident they did not think those through, what happens after we tower dive and kill the support? Do we have enough to handle and get away from the lightining fast responses of the Blaze counter did not go through their mind. Against lesser prepared and coordinated teams that gank would of been spectacular and yielded great results, but against similarly coordinated teams, we saw what happened: every gank became a 1-3, 1-2, 2-4 trade in blaze's favor.


It seemed to me that in Finals Games 2/3 TSM figured out what to do (sorta) but figured it out after picks/bans and essentially had already lost the game by that time. Those games were played more to TSM's style.

Singed didn't have the DPS to kill Urgot, Ryze, Irelia, Alistar, or Maokai, TF's Burst was not enough to 100-0 anyone either. So, whenever an engage happened TSM had no targets to kill, just a bunch of Bruisers/Tanks with great CC and Chaox's damage wasn't good enough to make up for it.

Maybe if they had won the game at lvl 6ish it would have worked, but that was always unlikely.

I'm no expert, but that is what it looked like to me.
Freeeeeeedom
King K. Rool
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada4408 Posts
August 07 2012 23:13 GMT
#57
Great writeup.


IMO TSM did ok, they've never been the best at adapting, and the only time I remember them beating some new strategy was when they just straight up banned Dignitas's triple support build.
Rinrun
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada3509 Posts
August 07 2012 23:46 GMT
#58
Awesome write up.
MBC/Liquid/TSM always.
necrosed
Profile Joined March 2011
Brazil885 Posts
August 08 2012 00:05 GMT
#59
congrats to all people involved in the writeup.
Shadow of his former self.
Divine-Sneaker
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark1225 Posts
August 08 2012 00:25 GMT
#60
Great read.
tipakee
Profile Joined April 2010
United States127 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 00:51:43
August 08 2012 00:48 GMT
#61
O god I remeber why I love TL. I saw this on reddit and came from there. I first started following TL when SC2 was in Beta and I miss the write ups and strategy. Since then I have picked up LOL. LOL needs more amazing non-biased writers like you. These reads are amazing, keep up the great work!
Takkara
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2503 Posts
August 08 2012 00:51 GMT
#62
Fantastic review, cheers to all the contributors. Ate every word of it up, and still was left hungry for more.
Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
Abenson
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada4122 Posts
August 08 2012 01:16 GMT
#63
so good o.o

Also "Written by Moonbear and Chiharu"
o.o
JerKy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)3013 Posts
August 08 2012 01:49 GMT
#64
Amazing read
Thanks
You can type "StarCraft" with just your left hand.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
August 08 2012 01:58 GMT
#65
I cant get over "Written by Moonbear and Chiharu" lololol

amazing write up x] do moar!
Torchise
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada245 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 02:08:42
August 08 2012 02:04 GMT
#66
Great writeup, didn't even know there was some equivalent of analysis articles of tournaments of BW/SC2 on LoL!

However, I found multiple typos during my reading (please don't take it personally :3). Could you fix them? It would help increase the readability and make the article even more amazing!

I've used strikethrough with a fix right after when applicable, underlined part of sentences where the fix was not clear (with discussion of a solution right after) and bolded some words that were missing.

+ Show Spoiler [List of typos I found] +

  • CLG and has long touted the Koreans as being one of the best in the scene and relocated themselves to Korea to train for the Season 2 World Championships, with Dignitas also jumping at the opportunity.

    (I'm not sure if you are trying to name another team after "CLG", maybe CLG.NA and CLG.EU? Unless it's the "and" that is superfluous)

  • The There are the Koreans, seen as elite machines programmed to do nothing but win at Starcraft [...]

  • The "Korean Training House Mentality", where Koreans will lock themselves in a room and do nothing by but analyse games and practise all day [...]

  • Interestingly, this competition may start to alienate the profession professional players from their fans.

  • Fans of professional teams love to watch their favourite play player stream [...]

  • Interesting Interestingly, Azubu's play style has many similarities to the current paradigm of thinking that have been developed by Chinese DotA [...]

  • We have all heard of the theories behind early game aggresion aggression.

  • In this respects respect, it is perhaps similar to the old dominance of Faerie decks in Magic the Gathering.

  • However, Azubu completely forgo forewent the laning phase and force forced both teams to give up time to farm.

  • Zhonyas Zhonya's Hourglass, Locket of the Iron Solari, Randuin's Omen, Shurelya's Reverie, Zeke's Herald [...]

  • CptJack would consistently get a Bloodthirster first on many AD champions, forgoing foregoing the expensive Infinity Edge [...]

  • However, the biggest change we have seen how strongly Azubu places such a strong emphasis on their team-supporting items [...]

    (Not sure about this one, maybe replace the underlined text with "that we have seen is how"?)

  • During the group stages, whenever someone recalled to heal or buy, Azubu`Lustboy would often stay and proceed to farm the minions there.

    (I've added "stay" since there was a verb missing there but I'm not 100% sure if "stay" is the missing word you intended)

  • It is perhaps somewhat curious that the World Elite League of Legends Team was not the first to utilise [...]

  • But it is the first time we have really seen a team take these things serious seriously enough to continuously make a note of them throughout a game.

  • They use take advantage of the times when they are higher level thanks to successful ganks.

    (I suggest "They take advantage of the intervals of time")

  • Take for instance one of their games when where they had a Maokai and Taric [...]

  • However, Azubu create creates their own advantage and force forces the other team to fight while they have a key advantage.

  • CLG.EU's duo of Kepo Krepo and Yellowpete [...]

  • When all is said an and done however, Azubu has shown us some of the biggest developments in League of Legends theory to date [...]



Oh, and there also this that was found previously by Xacez:

On August 08 2012 04:10 Xacez wrote:
Excellent write-up, will be interesting to follow the scene for the months to come.

Also found an error under Part 2.
Show nested quote +
Abuzu prioritises aura


Thanks!
The baylife, it burns!
bubblegumbo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Taiwan1296 Posts
August 08 2012 02:06 GMT
#67
Great analysis on the item builds, keep on doing these articles please!
"I honestly think that whoever invented toilet paper is a genius. For man to survive, they need toilet paper!"- Nal_rA
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
August 08 2012 02:14 GMT
#68
So which mod enslaved you into doin this?

God Bless
Caphe
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Vietnam10817 Posts
August 08 2012 02:28 GMT
#69
What a write-up! Thanks so much for putting this together.
Terran
LeapofFaith
Profile Joined November 2011
United States446 Posts
August 08 2012 03:17 GMT
#70
Nice article!
MoonBear
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
August 08 2012 03:55 GMT
#71
Yeah, sorry about the typos guys. I didn't get much sleep trying to grind this piece out. Unfortunately editing them would break the pretty formatting so it'll have to stay there for now until I can get it fixed. Sorry.

On August 08 2012 11:14 Roffles wrote:
So which mod enslaved you into doin this?


Huehuehue
ModeratorA dream. Do you have one that has cursed you like that? Or maybe... a wish?
SoulSever
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada779 Posts
August 08 2012 04:22 GMT
#72
Loved this and I'd be super thrilled if some of the contributors could have a follow up post with their opinions on how to counter the Azubu style

<3's all around!
Violet <3 ~~~Better places than here exist
price
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
August 08 2012 05:41 GMT
#73
great analysis. i was just talking to my friends who are relatively new to the game about the advantages of BT over IE for early dragon fights and why you sometimes build IE or BT first (on graves for example). the only other thing i took away from their strategy is the type of champs they would pick for that play style. they would stay clear of hyper carries and tend to pick champions that are solid at all stages of the game (and esp level 1 team fights, early game, mid game). so i would guess that the best way to beat their strategy is to try to pick champions that scale better than their team comps and then try to draw out the game. of course WAY easier said than done ...
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Schnake
Profile Joined September 2003
Germany2819 Posts
August 08 2012 06:24 GMT
#74
Thank you, a very interesting read!
"Alán Shore" and "August Terran" @ LoL EUW - liquidparty
Smu
Profile Joined July 2009
Serbia164 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 06:34:42
August 08 2012 06:32 GMT
#75
A very nice read overall. I have to quote you on one part where you are wrong though :

It is perhaps telling that Reapered (Azubu's top lane player) often bought Philosopher's Stone on Irelia and sometimes even a Heart of Gold, even in a 1v2 lane when he was losing. A curious choice in today's meta. The prevailing theory in many schools of thought is that when you are behind and getting crushed in lane, getting GP10 items only delays you being relevant in the game and only really matter in the super long run, by which point you have likely lost. And in any case, why buy GP10 items when you could buy something that actually gives you an advantage right here and now like a Phage?


While GP10 items are a great investment for lategame, a Philo stone will also work very well in a 1v2 situation because it's initial stats, health and mana regen are very helpful for 1v2ing as it helps you sustain through any harass that you might be suffering. To a less extent, heart of gold will help you with it's initial stats of health against getting bursted down. So it's not all a case of late game investment. GP items are that powerful for characters that don't want to fight at the moment, and can afford it.. Phage would be a poor choice since he didn't need damage and slow effect since he had no intention to fight, rather just sustain himself and farm as little as he can. All of this stuff is pretty intuitive and nothing that much new to the meta.
Take us into orbit Mr. Malmsteen. We've seen enough.
Pai645
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada5 Posts
August 08 2012 07:06 GMT
#76
Good stuffs. I didn't expect to see such a high quality analysis post in such a small sub-forum when Scarra retweeted a link of this. 10/10 and I hope to read more from you guys in the future!
Lexvink
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada310 Posts
August 08 2012 08:05 GMT
#77
Great write up, I am looking forward to seeing more these on LoL from TL!!
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
August 08 2012 08:17 GMT
#78
Really interesting analysis, very informative.

I think it is very much like BW in the sense that the execution of the Korean team was just WAY better. They had a strong strategy and they go all out on that strategy with very precise gank timings and execution on those ganks.
I'm not sure that the "push" strategy is all that better; just like in BW foreigners were often playing and attempting strategies that turned out to be very effective much later on but they just couldn't execute them even close to well enough to see the results. What the Koreans do is play a strategy as close to 100% of it's potential as they possibly can by vast repetition of practice games and great analysis of how to optimise what they're doing.

As you said it is a lot like the Korean style of doing hardcore all-ins. There's no half measures in those strategies. The plan is very calculated. Find a weak timing, make as many units as possible and the best combination of units at that timing, attack full on with everything you have following up with more units hoping to end the game then. If it doesn't work... you lose. Getting mobility boots and no GP10 on Maokai early is a signal of intent just as glaring as not expanding and putting down 8 barracks. It means, I'm going to kill you NOW or SOON; there is no half measure here. They will then blow summoners to get the right engage and make sure the kill comes off. Knowing from focused practice that if they do it right it's almost 90% likely to succeed.

The exception to that was game2 of the final when they somehow tricked TSM into allowing them a FAR superior team comp. I don't know what came over TSM in that game to allow Alistair, Ryze, Urgot whilst picking TF/Nocturne/Ashe for themselves. You're just never going to get consistent tower dives versus an Alistair/Urgot combo under tower, it's far too tough. And then when it comes to lategame you can't burst anyone down while they systematically destroy anything on your team that does damage.
They could have replayed that game 100 times and Blaze wins 90+.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
August 08 2012 08:54 GMT
#79
Fantastic.
Meril
Profile Joined March 2011
29 Posts
August 08 2012 08:58 GMT
#80
@Klive5ive:
I would guess the idea of TSM in game 2 was that they wanted to prevent the early towerpushing of Azubu, so they can't snowball:
-singed, ashe volley and TF gold cards to clear creep waves
-twisted fate, ashe arrow and nocturne to catch out of position pushers and to counter tower dives
Kickboxer
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Slovenia1308 Posts
August 08 2012 09:20 GMT
#81
Sick writeup. I remember reading top elo rants about the passive farming nature of the game and how it can never change and being completely boggled by it. When a 5-man team develops some coordination and starts 3-4 man ganking there is no safety in passive play and I'm glad the Russians and Koreans were able to show people how it's done

I think the safe farming non-diving mentality will wreck any teams that were carried by it against lesser opposition.
Gumbygum
Profile Joined March 2011
United States19 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 10:02:15
August 08 2012 09:58 GMT
#82
I think its also a worthy venture to mention the lack of a real coach on most NA/EU teams. Ones that are there during the game reminding the players of key timings suchas wards/levels.

Amazing writeup.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
August 08 2012 10:09 GMT
#83
On August 08 2012 18:58 Gumbygum wrote:
I think its also a worthy venture to mention the lack of a real coach on most NA/EU teams. Ones that are there during the game reminding the players of key timings suchas wards/levels.

Amazing writeup.

This should not exist. LoL is 5 v 5, not 6 v 6 or even 6 v 5.
Hope tournaments that allow that change their rules.
Off-season = best season
Gumbygum
Profile Joined March 2011
United States19 Posts
August 08 2012 10:17 GMT
#84
It might just be MLG its an old rule leftover from console shooters.
Crownlol
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3726 Posts
August 08 2012 15:00 GMT
#85
Fantastic analysis, 10/10, should be a featured article.
shaGuar :: elemeNt :: XeqtR :: naikon :: method
Isken
Profile Joined November 2010
Korea (South)1131 Posts
August 08 2012 15:19 GMT
#86
excellent read!
MoonBear
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
August 08 2012 15:20 GMT
#87
On August 08 2012 15:32 Smu wrote:
While GP10 items are a great investment for lategame, a Philo stone will also work very well in a 1v2 situation because it's initial stats, health and mana regen are very helpful for 1v2ing as it helps you sustain through any harass that you might be suffering. To a less extent, heart of gold will help you with it's initial stats of health against getting bursted down. So it's not all a case of late game investment. GP items are that powerful for characters that don't want to fight at the moment, and can afford it.. Phage would be a poor choice since he didn't need damage and slow effect since he had no intention to fight, rather just sustain himself and farm as little as he can. All of this stuff is pretty intuitive and nothing that much new to the meta.

Hm. This was brought up on Reddit as well. I'll copy and paste my response from there. It's not that the build itself was bad or anything. It's just that I wanted to highlight why he did that build.

TLMoonBear[Aika Kasumi] (NA)[S] 12 points 19 hours ago
Sorry if what I wrote was not terribly clear. I do not think it is a bad or abnormal choice for Irelia to go two GP10 items, especially in a 1v2 lane. Indeed, getting Philo+HoG was a very common build on Irelia before. However, eventually people such as Wickd felt that GP10 only makes you weaker in lane. GP10 acts as an investment that pays off in the future. If you want to be more powerful and richer, why not just get key items such as Phage and crush your lane harder as well as being more relevant in teamfights mid-game? If you take advantage of the instant boost in power, it should make up for the GP10 long-run while being more powerful right here and now.

The return to a double gp10 build on Irelia itself is not a large shift in thinking. It is the reasoning behind the return to a double gp10 build I feel that is the most important thing to take away from Reapered's play. I feel it is important for people to understand why they want to go gp10 if they want to copy Reapered rather than just copy his build blindly.
ModeratorA dream. Do you have one that has cursed you like that? Or maybe... a wish?
KarlKaliente
Profile Joined March 2012
United States434 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 15:30:26
August 08 2012 15:30 GMT
#88
On August 08 2012 19:17 Gumbygum wrote:
It might just be MLG its an old rule leftover from console shooters.


Likely this, some Halo teams used coachces to time powerups and weapon spawns.

I think its absurd to have a coach timing items for a team game. Quake players can handle 5 or more items with varying timers, by themselves, without a clock. Sure there may be a few more things to time in League, but they have 5 players that can all contribute, as well has a clock showing seconds. A 6th person that can communicate with them is completely unnecessary. It would also mean the extra burden of flying around a 6th person, practicing, etc. if this were to catch on.
UMS > Melee
VirgilSC2
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States6151 Posts
August 08 2012 15:45 GMT
#89
On August 09 2012 00:30 KarlKaliente wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2012 19:17 Gumbygum wrote:
It might just be MLG its an old rule leftover from console shooters.


Likely this, some Halo teams used coachces to time powerups and weapon spawns.

I think its absurd to have a coach timing items for a team game. Quake players can handle 5 or more items with varying timers, by themselves, without a clock. Sure there may be a few more things to time in League, but they have 5 players that can all contribute, as well has a clock showing seconds. A 6th person that can communicate with them is completely unnecessary. It would also mean the extra burden of flying around a 6th person, practicing, etc. if this were to catch on.

I think it comes down to the fact that having the 6th person timing everything/reminding timers, etc. it allows the players to focus that much more on the present.

However, I think it's a lot less necessary than in say, Halo, where there's literally no downtime like there is in LoL.

Just to be clear, I don't think teams need coaches. However, I can see how it would be very useful for teams.
Clarity Gaming #1 Fan | Avid MTG Grinder | @VirgilSC2
Crownlol
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3726 Posts
August 08 2012 16:02 GMT
#90
On August 09 2012 00:30 KarlKaliente wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2012 19:17 Gumbygum wrote:
It might just be MLG its an old rule leftover from console shooters.


Likely this, some Halo teams used coachces to time powerups and weapon spawns.

I think its absurd to have a coach timing items for a team game. Quake players can handle 5 or more items with varying timers, by themselves, without a clock. Sure there may be a few more things to time in League, but they have 5 players that can all contribute, as well has a clock showing seconds. A 6th person that can communicate with them is completely unnecessary. It would also mean the extra burden of flying around a 6th person, practicing, etc. if this were to catch on.



I kind of like the idea of allowing coaches. They're allowed in other sports, and it gives ex-players a continuing career path.
shaGuar :: elemeNt :: XeqtR :: naikon :: method
ViZe
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1513 Posts
August 08 2012 16:14 GMT
#91
On August 09 2012 01:02 Crownlol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 00:30 KarlKaliente wrote:
On August 08 2012 19:17 Gumbygum wrote:
It might just be MLG its an old rule leftover from console shooters.


Likely this, some Halo teams used coachces to time powerups and weapon spawns.

I think its absurd to have a coach timing items for a team game. Quake players can handle 5 or more items with varying timers, by themselves, without a clock. Sure there may be a few more things to time in League, but they have 5 players that can all contribute, as well has a clock showing seconds. A 6th person that can communicate with them is completely unnecessary. It would also mean the extra burden of flying around a 6th person, practicing, etc. if this were to catch on.



I kind of like the idea of allowing coaches. They're allowed in other sports, and it gives ex-players a continuing career path.


Honestly LoL is not nearly complex enough to justify this. The game now has a timestamp for each written post in chat and for kills on dragon and baron. If a BW player can manage timings by looking at the number of workers he has and how many minerals he has left in each patch I think LoL players can do with a free log that they can write in. E-sports are not very comparable to other sports, at least in the RTS environment.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 16:28:07
August 08 2012 16:27 GMT
#92
On August 08 2012 19:17 Gumbygum wrote:
It might just be MLG its an old rule leftover from console shooters.

A similar rule existed in some DotA tournaments as well a few years ago, that met with similar controversy.

I think the standard is only the players in the booth now, though.

On August 09 2012 01:02 Crownlol wrote:
I kind of like the idea of allowing coaches. They're allowed in other sports, and it gives ex-players a continuing career path.

Being a coach doesn't mean that you necessarily have to or should be in the room during games.
Moderator
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21540 Posts
August 08 2012 16:28 GMT
#93
On August 09 2012 01:02 Crownlol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 00:30 KarlKaliente wrote:
On August 08 2012 19:17 Gumbygum wrote:
It might just be MLG its an old rule leftover from console shooters.


Likely this, some Halo teams used coachces to time powerups and weapon spawns.

I think its absurd to have a coach timing items for a team game. Quake players can handle 5 or more items with varying timers, by themselves, without a clock. Sure there may be a few more things to time in League, but they have 5 players that can all contribute, as well has a clock showing seconds. A 6th person that can communicate with them is completely unnecessary. It would also mean the extra burden of flying around a 6th person, practicing, etc. if this were to catch on.



I kind of like the idea of allowing coaches. They're allowed in other sports, and it gives ex-players a continuing career path.


There not mutualy exclusive.
Coaches are something very common is Korea and I agree that the rest of the esports world should embrace them aswell but there is still a lot of work for coaches without them being a 6e playing inside the game. He would be allowed to help his team in between games and maybe also during champion select but once the game starts a coach really shouldnt be actively participating.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Vlanitak
Profile Joined November 2009
Norway3045 Posts
August 08 2012 17:34 GMT
#94
excellent write up, just got to read it now, but I am really impressed. good work to all who worked on it. hopefully (seen this linked around a bit by now ) people will try and "break" the meta more or transfer more ideas from dota and such. mayhaps we will see a s2 finals with not 1 but 3-4 different strats designed to fight each other or something like that.
washed
elementz
Profile Joined October 2010
United States281 Posts
August 08 2012 20:49 GMT
#95
A game house life coach, and a between games coach are fine and maybe very needed, but a coach is yay to helpful in making ganks never work which will make the game a farm fest boring thing to watch...
this mah s#$%$
kenwoo
Profile Joined August 2010
United States484 Posts
August 08 2012 21:01 GMT
#96
very nice read
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
August 08 2012 22:47 GMT
#97
On August 08 2012 18:20 Kickboxer wrote:
Sick writeup. I remember reading top elo rants about the passive farming nature of the game and how it can never change and being completely boggled by it. When a 5-man team develops some coordination and starts 3-4 man ganking there is no safety in passive play and I'm glad the Russians and Koreans were able to show people how it's done

I think the safe farming non-diving mentality will wreck any teams that were carried by it against lesser opposition.


Passive play would work fine so long as the players on the passive team react accordingly. If your bot lane is being four man dove and your mid and jungler aren't there to help then your team failed pretty hard. Your mid should react when his opponent isn't in lane and your jungler should be able to read what the enemy jungler is up to through proper warding. Obviously if a team buys early oracles this becomes harder but it doesn't become impossible.

I think that a team playing passive could do fine against a team playing incredibly aggressive. The passive team just has to react appropriately to their opponents aggression. Just look at the Blaze vs. TSM games. There were times that TSM tried four man ganking botlane and Blaze's jungler and mid were there to respond to it perfectly. Sometimes they would even turn it around and get 3-4 kills off it while only losing one of their own.
ggahSoO
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States191 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 04:24:36
August 09 2012 04:23 GMT
#98
Loved the post, I'm mainly a dota player but it's cool to see these strats that I'm so familiar with and got to watch be unveiled in chinese tourneys be used in a different context.

Also, 820 isn't just a famous player he's the best goddamn support player EVER
firebathero x bisu
humanimal
Profile Joined June 2010
United States151 Posts
August 09 2012 04:32 GMT
#99
Awesome read! Thanks for the insight ^^.
Zarox
Profile Joined August 2012
United States7 Posts
August 09 2012 04:42 GMT
#100
Great read, I hope you continue to do this for future events as this post finally convinced me to join TL. This is the type of analysis that the LoL Scene needs.
shostakovich
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Brazil1429 Posts
August 09 2012 06:34 GMT
#101
Excellent write-up. But I don't think that 'early aggression' is the best way to describe what the chinese do. It's aggression, but a very particular kind of aggression based on a principle deeply rooted in chinese classical philosophy and martial arts: the idea that opposing force with force is not optimal. What is optimal is to act naturally and adapt to circumstances. To force unnatural situations means bringing death close to you, while acting natural means you'll live longer. What's amazing about chinese Dota is that they try to be as natural as possible: they'll avoid as much as possible to force an artificial advantage, they'll put a lot of focus on item progression and will wait for the best timings. You look at them and you might think they're not being aggressive, but the truth is that they're putting a knife in your throat. You could say, in a very chinese way, that they're being aggressive by not being aggressive. That also means avoiding at all costs having pre-conceived ideas interfering in your read of the game. A lot of times you'll see teams trying to force unnatural advantages, or reading something that's not extracted from the game but from pre-conceived ideas.

Good read.
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
August 12 2012 01:24 GMT
#102
Wow, this was really, really good
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
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