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I think everyone in here underestimates the other function of gold gain/hero acquisition: goal fulfillment.
People like to have goals and to feel like they completed them and games that do that are popular. The potential examples here are endless. Some people can create their own goals in a game but many prefer to have a least some structure.
Heroes has this in several ways, and I think it's one of the reasons it will be successful. Some of the goals are: talent access (initially), daily quests, skin variations, mount variations, HL access, HL rankings, and, you guessed it, hero acquisition. A lot of people like the feeling of finally getting enough gold to unlock that hero you've been eyeing across the store. "Oh yes, Sylvanas, you are looking good with that bow and arrow. What? It takes 10,000 gold to take you to dinner? Well look what I just happen to have here in my wallet."
Getting that new hero gives one a sense of progression. A "look where I am now!" feeling that makes them proud of what they accomplished. It's not just about money... well, actually it is, but it's not just about the money for the heroes. It's about trying to hook people on the game and the goals that they can achieve in the game and then getting them to want to keep playing, both for the game itself and the goals in the game. That means a larger player base and more people who can spend more money.
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Open beta! Time to troll with Nova 
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On May 19 2015 21:33 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I think everyone in here underestimates the other function of gold gain/hero acquisition: goal fulfillment.
People like to have goals and to feel like they completed them and games that do that are popular. The potential examples here are endless. Some people can create their own goals in a game but many prefer to have a least some structure.
Heroes has this in several ways, and I think it's one of the reasons it will be successful. Some of the goals are: talent access (initially), daily quests, skin variations, mount variations, HL access, HL rankings, and, you guessed it, hero acquisition. A lot of people like the feeling of finally getting enough gold to unlock that hero you've been eyeing across the store. "Oh yes, Sylvanas, you are looking good with that bow and arrow. What? It takes 10,000 gold to take you to dinner? Well look what I just happen to have here in my wallet."
Getting that new hero gives one a sense of progression. A "look where I am now!" feeling that makes them proud of what they accomplished. It's not just about money... well, actually it is, but it's not just about the money for the heroes. It's about trying to hook people on the game and the goals that they can achieve in the game and then getting them to want to keep playing, both for the game itself and the goals in the game. That means a larger player base and more people who can spend more money.
Fantastic post. This is a huge reason I still play Hearthstone as well and if I had to guess the people this fits are in the majority.
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On May 19 2015 04:24 Stratos_speAr wrote:
All I've heard are the generic, "This takes too long/is too expensive! It's bad and isn't good!" that you hear with every MOBA game.
So, Smite, Hon, Strife and Dota2 aren't Mobas?
And it's not about need to ave all heroes to compete, it's about waking up and thinking "today i want to try this build on this hero". It's about freedom.
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Lol people are arguing about the HOTS business model from pretty much the start. Is it too expensive, is the gold gain too slow... Maybe it's better than LoL or it isn't. And it was all pointless. At the end of the day the market will decide. If people are playing it - it's totaly fine, if they don't it's not. Pretty simple.
For people that want all heroes free and all. Why dont you just play Dota or Smite ?
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On May 19 2015 23:07 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol people are arguing about the HOTS business model from pretty much the start. Is it too expensive, is the gold gain too slow... Maybe it's better than LoL or it isn't. And it was all pointless. At the end of the day the market will decide. If people are playing it - it's totaly fine, if they don't it's not. Pretty simple.
For people that want all heroes free and all... Why dont you just play Dota or Smite ?
So, people aren't allowed to enjoy HotS but wishing it had a better business model? Can't people argue that HotS could be more successful with a better model?
Isn't this a discussion board or a circle jerk board?
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On May 19 2015 23:31 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 23:07 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol people are arguing about the HOTS business model from pretty much the start. Is it too expensive, is the gold gain too slow... Maybe it's better than LoL or it isn't. And it was all pointless. At the end of the day the market will decide. If people are playing it - it's totaly fine, if they don't it's not. Pretty simple.
For people that want all heroes free and all... Why dont you just play Dota or Smite ? So, people aren't allowed to enjoy HotS but wishing it had a better business model? Can't people argue that HotS could be more successful with a better model? Isn't this a discussion board or a circle jerk board?
You can do whatever you want. All I'm saying is that it's pointless.
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On May 19 2015 23:45 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 23:31 TMG26 wrote:On May 19 2015 23:07 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol people are arguing about the HOTS business model from pretty much the start. Is it too expensive, is the gold gain too slow... Maybe it's better than LoL or it isn't. And it was all pointless. At the end of the day the market will decide. If people are playing it - it's totaly fine, if they don't it's not. Pretty simple.
For people that want all heroes free and all... Why dont you just play Dota or Smite ? So, people aren't allowed to enjoy HotS but wishing it had a better business model? Can't people argue that HotS could be more successful with a better model? Isn't this a discussion board or a circle jerk board? You can do whatever you want. All I'm saying is that it's pointless.
It's not pointless. People learn stuff in discussions, things that you never considered before.
Making someone changing his mind, yeah, not gonna happen, but it can end up with multiple people learn new points of view.
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On May 19 2015 23:07 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol people are arguing about the HOTS business model from pretty much the start. Is it too expensive, is the gold gain too slow... Maybe it's better than LoL or it isn't. And it was all pointless. At the end of the day the market will decide. If people are playing it - it's totaly fine, if they don't it's not. Pretty simple.
For people that want all heroes free and all. Why dont you just play Dota or Smite ?
lol only a clueless person would argue its better than in league, hots gold gain per game is terrible and provides no progress at all, after doing my dailes there basically no reason to play if u want to grind new heroes
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On May 19 2015 21:51 mordek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 21:33 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I think everyone in here underestimates the other function of gold gain/hero acquisition: goal fulfillment.
People like to have goals and to feel like they completed them and games that do that are popular. The potential examples here are endless. Some people can create their own goals in a game but many prefer to have a least some structure.
Heroes has this in several ways, and I think it's one of the reasons it will be successful. Some of the goals are: talent access (initially), daily quests, skin variations, mount variations, HL access, HL rankings, and, you guessed it, hero acquisition. A lot of people like the feeling of finally getting enough gold to unlock that hero you've been eyeing across the store. "Oh yes, Sylvanas, you are looking good with that bow and arrow. What? It takes 10,000 gold to take you to dinner? Well look what I just happen to have here in my wallet."
Getting that new hero gives one a sense of progression. A "look where I am now!" feeling that makes them proud of what they accomplished. It's not just about money... well, actually it is, but it's not just about the money for the heroes. It's about trying to hook people on the game and the goals that they can achieve in the game and then getting them to want to keep playing, both for the game itself and the goals in the game. That means a larger player base and more people who can spend more money. Fantastic post. This is a huge reason I still play Hearthstone as well and if I had to guess the people this fits are in the majority.
Glad somebody read it mordek! It looks like I'll fail of my goal to influence the general "HoTS vs. LoL vs. DOTA" argument with a more nuanced understanding both of game design and human nature, but if at least one person read it I can be happy. Hope you have a great day too.
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On May 19 2015 21:39 FreeZEternal wrote:Open beta! Time to troll with Nova
I think many Assassins are going to shine against new players.
Going to have some fun with Kerrigan, dragging clueless heroes to a spiky death. 
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On May 20 2015 00:07 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 23:07 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol people are arguing about the HOTS business model from pretty much the start. Is it too expensive, is the gold gain too slow... Maybe it's better than LoL or it isn't. And it was all pointless. At the end of the day the market will decide. If people are playing it - it's totaly fine, if they don't it's not. Pretty simple.
For people that want all heroes free and all. Why dont you just play Dota or Smite ? lol only a clueless person would argue its better than in league, hots gold gain per game is terrible and provides no progress at all, after doing my dailes there basically no reason to play if u want to grind new heroes
After your IP boots/first win of the day, you still gain marginal IP on LoL as well.
Both are an incredibly tedious grind, and any difference in numbers between LoL and HotS are marginal enough to be functionally insignificant. You still have to play a lot of fucking games in LoL to get a hero, just like in HotS, and there are even more heroes to get in LoL.
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On May 20 2015 00:33 LaughingTulkas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 21:51 mordek wrote:On May 19 2015 21:33 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I think everyone in here underestimates the other function of gold gain/hero acquisition: goal fulfillment.
People like to have goals and to feel like they completed them and games that do that are popular. The potential examples here are endless. Some people can create their own goals in a game but many prefer to have a least some structure.
Heroes has this in several ways, and I think it's one of the reasons it will be successful. Some of the goals are: talent access (initially), daily quests, skin variations, mount variations, HL access, HL rankings, and, you guessed it, hero acquisition. A lot of people like the feeling of finally getting enough gold to unlock that hero you've been eyeing across the store. "Oh yes, Sylvanas, you are looking good with that bow and arrow. What? It takes 10,000 gold to take you to dinner? Well look what I just happen to have here in my wallet."
Getting that new hero gives one a sense of progression. A "look where I am now!" feeling that makes them proud of what they accomplished. It's not just about money... well, actually it is, but it's not just about the money for the heroes. It's about trying to hook people on the game and the goals that they can achieve in the game and then getting them to want to keep playing, both for the game itself and the goals in the game. That means a larger player base and more people who can spend more money. Fantastic post. This is a huge reason I still play Hearthstone as well and if I had to guess the people this fits are in the majority. Glad somebody read it mordek! It looks like I'll fail of my goal to influence the general "HoTS vs. LoL vs. DOTA" argument with a more nuanced understanding both of game design and human nature, but if at least one person read it I can be happy. Hope you have a great day too.
Well everyone has different likes and dislikes. I mean the Daily quest system shifts gold gain to demotivate farming abuse and rushing games and encourages playing different heroes. It is really good for the person that plays 1 or 2 games every day. But for hardcore rushers, that play games in burst it is not a good system.
And those are also the type that is most likely to invest tons of money into a game to reduce the time they have to play the game so they can move on to the next game.
Obviously you don't want to cater to this player type in a multiplayer game that needs huge numbers to be lasting, because they throw money at you to play for a minute and move on. You rather want people that play your game and occasionally buy something and that convince their friends to play the game.
The Rushers still can complain about a model being to expensive for how they enjoy games, even if they are the cause of it because they are marketings best friends. In the end they are the ones using the payment options the most.
Shortly said it is a clash of two different types of gamers, that both enjoy games in different ways.
Still dislike them, as they turn MMOs into low population pay 300 euro a month to have a shot games. So I am a bit bitter.
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On May 20 2015 01:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2015 00:07 kongoline wrote:On May 19 2015 23:07 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol people are arguing about the HOTS business model from pretty much the start. Is it too expensive, is the gold gain too slow... Maybe it's better than LoL or it isn't. And it was all pointless. At the end of the day the market will decide. If people are playing it - it's totaly fine, if they don't it's not. Pretty simple.
For people that want all heroes free and all. Why dont you just play Dota or Smite ? lol only a clueless person would argue its better than in league, hots gold gain per game is terrible and provides no progress at all, after doing my dailes there basically no reason to play if u want to grind new heroes After your IP boots/first win of the day, you still gain marginal IP on LoL as well. Both are an incredibly tedious grind, and any difference in numbers between LoL and HotS are marginal enough to be functionally insignificant. You still have to play a lot of fucking games in LoL to get a hero, just like in HotS, and there are even more heroes to get in LoL.
its not even close to how tedious it is in hots,not to mention in hots there are almost no cheap heroes so u get pigeon-holed into grinding for 10k heroes super fast, theres plenty of cheap choices in league and grinding for the most expensive one still takes 1/4 of games it takes in hots, dont even get me started how dull playing with 1 champion for large amount of games is in hots compared to league where theres actually point in practising matchups and much more depth what u actually can do (with some exceptions like zeratul)
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On May 20 2015 03:03 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2015 01:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 20 2015 00:07 kongoline wrote:On May 19 2015 23:07 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol people are arguing about the HOTS business model from pretty much the start. Is it too expensive, is the gold gain too slow... Maybe it's better than LoL or it isn't. And it was all pointless. At the end of the day the market will decide. If people are playing it - it's totaly fine, if they don't it's not. Pretty simple.
For people that want all heroes free and all. Why dont you just play Dota or Smite ? lol only a clueless person would argue its better than in league, hots gold gain per game is terrible and provides no progress at all, after doing my dailes there basically no reason to play if u want to grind new heroes After your IP boots/first win of the day, you still gain marginal IP on LoL as well. Both are an incredibly tedious grind, and any difference in numbers between LoL and HotS are marginal enough to be functionally insignificant. You still have to play a lot of fucking games in LoL to get a hero, just like in HotS, and there are even more heroes to get in LoL. its not even close to how tedious it is in hots,not to mention in hots there are almost no cheap heroes so u get pigeon-holed into grinding for 10k heroes super fast, theres plenty of cheap choices in league and grinding for the most expensive one still takes 1/4 of games it takes in hots, dont even get me started how dull playing with 1 champion for large amount of games is in hots compared to league where theres actually point in practising matchups and much more depth what u actually can do (with some exceptions like zeratul)
1/3 of the heroes cost 2k or 4k. And the price of a hero has no correlation to how strong the hero is (speaking overall, of course there are strong 10k heroes and crap 2k heroes)., so I don't see how you get pigeon-holed.
Overall with hero rotation and the initial gold gain you should be able to choose from a large proportion of the existing heroes within your first 2 weeks of play.
If that's still boring to you, then that's more a function of Heroes just having less to choose from than Dota2 / LoL. Heroes have been coming out pretty slowly so this is a valid point of concern (from what I can tell, Smite is still releasing champs faster than Heroes is). And of course this isn't completely separate from gold gain since you could get variety with either % or # of unlocked heroes.
But I do think the small hero pool is a bigger annoyance for people than poor gold gain.
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Caldeum1977 Posts
All the hots vs league debate for how much it takes to buy a hero isn't even taking into account the rune system in league, which takes a massive amount of IP to get up to par with, and is required to have any chance in a real game.
The gold gains in my opinion are perfectly fine. Anyone who plays casually gets daily quests, which boost gold gains significantly and helps them a ton. Anyone who binge plays for days on end get a free stim pack when they hit level 10 (i think it's 10) that, if they are playing a ton, results in a massive gold gain per game. Playing a lot will also let you get to level 5 with every hero in the weekly rotation the first time the hero is available, giving more gold.
I've played like 350 games and have 17 heroes and 18k gold atm saved up for kael when he goes down to 10k and Johanna the instant she's released. And I've bought Jaina and Sylvanas when they were 15k, so that's another 1-2 heroes I could have bought. I also don't own Raynor, Malf, Muradin, or Li Li, and those are the cheapest heroes.
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On May 20 2015 05:27 Valiver wrote:
All the hots vs league debate for how much it takes to buy a hero isn't even taking into account the rune system in league, which takes a massive amount of IP to get up to par with, and is required to have any chance in a real game.
The gold gains in my opinion are perfectly fine. Anyone who plays casually gets daily quests, which boost gold gains significantly and helps them a ton. Anyone who binge plays for days on end get a free stim pack when they hit level 10 (i think it's 10) that, if they are playing a ton, results in a massive gold gain per game. Playing a lot will also let you get to level 5 with every hero in the weekly rotation the first time the hero is available, giving more gold.
I've played like 350 games and have 17 heroes and 18k gold atm saved up for kael when he goes down to 10k and Johanna the instant she's released. And I've bought Jaina and Sylvanas when they were 15k, so that's another 1-2 heroes I could have bought. I also don't own Raynor, Malf, Muradin, or Li Li, and those are the cheapest heroes.
This is a really good point. In HotS, you can earn additional gold by leveling each individual hero. Also, the rune system in LoL fucking sucks; I absolutely hate that thing, as it takes a shitload of IP, leaving you not truly competitive for ages, even when you reach max level, and it also takes IP away from heroes that you want to buy.
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On May 20 2015 05:27 Valiver wrote:
All the hots vs league debate for how much it takes to buy a hero isn't even taking into account the rune system in league, which takes a massive amount of IP to get up to par with, and is required to have any chance in a real game.
HotS might have the dumb talents lock, but at least it doesn't have idiotic rune system.
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On May 20 2015 06:23 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2015 05:27 Valiver wrote:
All the hots vs league debate for how much it takes to buy a hero isn't even taking into account the rune system in league, which takes a massive amount of IP to get up to par with, and is required to have any chance in a real game.
HotS might have the dumb talents lock, but at least it doesn't have idiotic rune system.
Oh god yes. I never played LoL but when I heard about that I figured I wouldn't even give the game a shot. I hate multiplayer "competitive" games that require some sort of grinding before you can be at even play with others players.
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I agree that the runes are a pretty huge hurdle in LoL and combined with the rune pages, it's easily the worst aspect of the game.
Heroes, though. It's not fair to compare the current game to how it was on release.
Let's just take a look at the IP costs of the champions when the game was actually released(no new champions included).
450 6
1350 17
3150 12
6300 5
In my opinion, it was very reasonable and balanced. Feel free to compare it to how it currently is for HotS, considering that an average match would be around 75 IP.
On May 19 2015 23:45 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 23:31 TMG26 wrote:On May 19 2015 23:07 Pr0wler wrote:
Lol people are arguing about the HOTS business model from pretty much the start. Is it too expensive, is the gold gain too slow... Maybe it's better than LoL or it isn't. And it was all pointless. At the end of the day the market will decide. If people are playing it - it's totaly fine, if they don't it's not. Pretty simple.
For people that want all heroes free and all... Why dont you just play Dota or Smite ? So, people aren't allowed to enjoy HotS but wishing it had a better business model? Can't people argue that HotS could be more successful with a better model? Isn't this a discussion board or a circle jerk board? You can do whatever you want. All I'm saying is that it's pointless.
Just because people play or don't play it doesn't mean the format is perfect or optimal. It could have more players if it was better, it could have less players if it was worse.
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EPT
