EPTHeroes Large General Thread - Page 184
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Discussing HotS' business model is fine Okie doke | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 08 2014 10:56 paralleluniverse wrote: That's why LoL is unfair outside of tournaments. And as has been announced at Blizzcon today, HotS is too. Chess is unfair too, white always has an advantage. Same with Go. The level of unfairness is what matters. LoL feels fair when you play it against other people of similar skill and that is all the matters. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 08 2014 10:58 Plansix wrote: Ok, we get it, you don't like the business model. There was a reason mods banned this discussion a long time ago. Nothing is going to change from this debate and, to be frank, I think we have all made these argument to eachother before and no one changed their minds. You completelys ignore that people are trying to point out different business model ways yet you still say that people want it to be free. I'm sorry but thats a really lazy cop out. There's a difference between making something free and make something a more fair and transparent of a business model. On November 08 2014 10:59 Plansix wrote: Chess is unfair too, white always has an advantage. Same with Go. The level of unfairness is what matters. LoL feels fair when you play it against other people of similar skill and that is all the matters. The fact that tournaments have all heroes unlocked contradicts this though. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Discussing HotS' business model is fine, but this is not a place to debate Dota vs LoL or whether LoL is pay2win. Keep that discussion out of this thread. Lets not forget how this got started. Its all hinges on if the game is P2W, just everyone is avoiding using the word. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On November 08 2014 10:50 paralleluniverse wrote: It is LoL. That's precisely why all heroes are unlocked in LoL tournaments. Riot don't want their tournaments to be pay to win, but they're seemingly fine if their game is. If payng extra money increases your probability of winning by a couple of percent, but I can still have super much fun being a 47-53 underdog against equally skilled players that pay, that's ok for me. At low levels, most people do not know how to optimally pick and select heroes anyway, so the P2P-factor is never really felt. Also, you cannot play ranked in League before level 30. So after level 30 you have played hundreds of games and have thereby been able to afford maybe around 10 heroes that you can play pretty well. Then when you go to the pick-and-ban phase, your not gonna play a champion that you haven't really practiced before just becasue it has a good a matchup. Regardless of how many choices you have, you would prefer to play champions that you have experience with. As you get better, you learn to play more champions, but you will also be able to buy more and more champions and in the end, the P2P win isn't very signifciant. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On November 08 2014 10:51 paralleluniverse wrote: There are at least 5 ways to fix this: 1. Continue to use blind picks. 2. Both teams have the same hero pool, which consists of all heroes that anyone (from either team) have unlocked. 3. The entire hero pool is unlocked in ranked mode. 4. Ranked mode is only accessible to players with all heroes unlocked. 5. Each player is required to pick 4 or 5 different heroes to put into their hero pool (20 or 25 heroes per team), and then drafting occurs with these 20 or 25 heroes per team as before. The point is the equalize the hero pool between both teams. LoooL  4th point is the funniest thing ever ! So you think that forcing everyone to unlock the entire roster in order to play ranked will "fix" something ? The draft is fine as it is. Everyone plays with their own roster as long as they have 10 heroes. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:00 Plansix wrote: Lets not forget how this got started. Its all hinges on if the game is P2W, just everyone is avoiding using the word. OK: HotS as it stands is either going to be P2W or hero variety will be shit because things will be balanced for unequal hero access. BOOM. Still not violating the mod note as I read it. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:00 Plansix wrote: Lets not forget how this got started. Its all hinges on if the game is P2W, just everyone is avoiding using the word. The concept of "tempting to pay" is generally aimed at kids and people that get addicted fast. This is not exclusively about pay to win. It's a question of whether you want to trick your customers into paying more than usual or not. Paying $50 for an alpha and then not getting all the content is certainly not standard in my eyes. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:00 Plansix wrote: Lets not forget how this got started. Its all hinges on if the game is P2W, just everyone is avoiding using the word. If LoL is P2W, as in your quote? The big issue that created that warning is that people were arguing about other games and this is obviously not the place. They could have banned all business model discussions, they explicitly did not. It's obvious that discussion about HotS' business model would involve what people feel is fair to pay for and what isn't. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:02 FHDH wrote: OK: HotS as it stands is either going to be P2W or hero variety will be shit because things will be balanced for unequal hero access. BOOM. Still not violating the mod note as I read it. The advantage provided by a specific hero in a match up is no greater than going first in chess or go. The amount is so small it is barely noticeable compared to the other factors in the game. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:05 Plansix wrote: The advantage provided by a specific hero in a match up is no greater than going first in chess or go. The amount is so small it is barely noticeable compared to the other factors in the game. Doesn't sound like hero selection matters that much then. | ||
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sushiko
197 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:05 Plansix wrote: The advantage provided by a specific hero in a match up is no greater than going first in chess or go. The amount is so small it is barely noticeable compared to the other factors in the game. Yeh, that's also my point. The major advantage related to having all available choices is something that only higher level players can take full advantage of. And those guys have typically played so much, so they have unlocked all (or most) of the choices anyway. So this is more of a theoretical issue than a practical one. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:06 FHDH wrote: Doesn't sound like hero selection matters that much then. It matters about as much as getting one specific hero in dota does. Lycan is not an overwhelming hero, except when RTZ gets it. And these are pub games and we all say "everything works in pubs" in dota all the time. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:06 FHDH wrote: Doesn't sound like hero selection matters that much then. In casual play and soloque it DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL. Hero selection matters only in high-level premade 5s and obviously in Tournaments. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:05 Plansix wrote: The advantage provided by a specific hero in a match up is no greater than going first in chess or go. The amount is so small it is barely noticeable compared to the other factors in the game. You're acting like first turn advantage is nothing in chess or go? Because it actually is and in Go the player going second gets extra points because of that. But anyway, I don't think the two problems are really the same. It is not about going first but rather about having the pool of heroes. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:08 Hider wrote: Yeh, that's also my point. The major advantage related to having all available choices is something that only higher level players can take full advantage of. And those guys have typically played so much, so they have unlocked all (or most) of the choices anyway. So this is more of a theoretical issue than a practical one. Hero match ups matter in pro and high level play, when everyone can play a lot of heroes and they are operating on a level where they are maximizing every aspect of the game. That is when the subtle differences between heroes really start to show. In pubs, we are all shit and really you just need a few basic things, like good lock down, DPS and maybe some push. | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
On November 08 2014 11:05 Plansix wrote: The advantage provided by a specific hero in a match up is no greater than going first in chess or go. The amount is so small it is barely noticeable compared to the other factors in the game. False: the advantage of a specific hero in a matchup is about the same as going first in a single game of Chess but not in chess overall, which is why Chess isn't Bo1 and you can't just play white every game if you paid for a more expensive chess set. Go is actually more or less perfectly balanced between going first and second due to there being a numerical handicap in points that in theory outweighs the first move advantage In both chess an Go that advantage is 100% gamebreaking in high level play if a player could have it every time. | ||
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