EPTThe Process Of Becomming Gosu
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
| ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28701 Posts
 ) and either you're talented (in which case you will become very good/gosu) or you're not talented, in which case you will never transcend above "good". for example nazgul played with a goal to improve and his natural talent coupled with the fact that he was playing a lot with people with higher skill than himself made him "gosu". | ||
|
Bizkit
Sweden1137 Posts
That's the tricky part, now that u don that let's move on. Now u install broodwar, set windows mouse speed fastest and then U go to famous replay sites/download and watch maybe 50 replays a day at 2X speed or Fastest, simply to learn strats and build orders. Now after u watch reps u play 12hours straight witouth no stop. I mean u can't sit in the Channel and Chat with other people. U get a maximum of 5 minutes to rest for each game. Focus and meditate, suck your fingers to get em warm or something. After a hard day at work training u eat(u get like 15minutes to eat, i sugest u call for pizza, takeout food so u can play meanwhile some asian guy is making ur Chinese Soup or something) and then u sleep, 6 hours no more no less. Then u wake up and we do a loop now to begin with the Replay sites/dowload part. After 4-6 months of hardcore training u shoul become realy gosu and win every shitty tournamnet around and get invitet to korea and play there as a ProGamer. The end - -; | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28701 Posts
| ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
 I like your discription Drone but where exactly do you find gosu who want to actually play with you? Heh, that's the hard part. | ||
|
HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
 | ||
|
dudex
Korea (South)31 Posts
u need knowledge and speed knowledge can come from experience, but if u get a great gosu tutor u'll have it in less time... and you improve faster if u have method too, if u think between games and practice certain details (say micro for example) even in your own ums maps u save time too the closest thing to talent would be creativity ( = boxer  )that is above knowledge cause there's less and less creativity going on, don't u think? the game has been explored very much. i think an interesting question is if it hasn't been explored TOO much. i mean, wouldn't it be funnier more variety of strats, when it wasn't common sense almost all the possibilities each races has in each matchup? argh, to do well in korea does take a shitload of many things, yes | ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
| ||
|
bi11y
United States169 Posts
 | ||
|
distant_voice
Germany2521 Posts
Dyou really think so? I think thats close to sayin "Anyone can be an actor/author/musician (artist of any sort)" Anyone can define what he's done as "art", but then again, what is art? Is that  ?Hmmmmm..... | ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
| ||
|
tenbagger
United States1289 Posts
1) hand speed 2) incredible clicking accuracy 3) quick thinking - ex. the ability to decide in a split second whether to push or retreat 4) deep thinking - ex. the ability to recognize what the opponent has based on limited scouting information, and what the opponent might do I can practice 24 hr/day for the rest of my life and I will never come close to as good as korean pros, because I'm jsut not as "talented". Its obvious that most normal people just cannot move as fast or click as accurately as the pros. I even get dizzy looking at their 1st person screen, but I think generally, the importance of points 3 and 4 are underestimated by most average players. If you look at pro replays or vods, their timing is almost magical, and that can be attributed to points 3 and 4. Its not just knowing to make temps against mass hyrdas and such. To play at that level you need to be able to think much much deeper, to calculate things to an incredible level of accuracy, and we can practice forever, and get tutored by gosus and such. It takes natural abilty = talent to compete at that level, not just practice. | ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
| ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
| ||
|
maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
I think this "thinking" has a much more common name: intelligence. It does take the knowledge of the game and repition in order to learn how to apply your interlligence, and there most certainly are mental shortcuts in this game as in any other, but the bottom line is, some people will never be able to play at the same level because they are limited by their intelligence. If you disagree with me, then what is it that defines a gosu? I am not making the case that all gosus are geniuses, i am saying that i expect the average IQ of a "gosu" to be higher than that of the average person. If each person who plays doesn't have a theoretical cap then nazgul would not be ranked among the top players in the world. He said earlier in a post that he practices about 5 hours a day. Compare that to Patry's 10 hours, or boxer's 12--the point that im trying to make here is that yes dedication is a large part of the game, but just like in all other areas of life, dedication is not what dictates success. It would be a wonderful world if that was so, but success is dictated by chance, by work, an by ability. We can attempt to limit chance through planning and practice, and we can work at our goal all we want, but ultimately ability is necessary to take the final step. As far as ability is concerned, every persons ability or intelligence is different, and that provides the cap on your playing. | ||
|
distant_voice
Germany2521 Posts
maleorderbride, didn't you watch Forrest Gump? I know that movies aren't for real, but look at other people that are "top" at their field, they really aren't all geniouses (<---hows that spelled?) Thinking isnt what decides the outcome of a starcraft-match imo. Ok, there are things you have to keep in mind like lurks + rines = blood but I'd say what counts is predicting what your enemy does, and you predict using your experience, so practice is what counts, its like driving cars, speaking a language and most other things. At that Nazgul plays only half as much as Boxer doesnt say a thing imo because I think that just relates to Boxer being a Korean and Nazgul being no Korean. Didn't we agree in the korean-education-thread some time ago that Koreans are terribly (if terribly is the right word) disciplined? I assume thats just a way of life. So what I think is: You can get really good by practicing (some'll need more some less). Your experience with other games doesnt effect your sc-skills that much, esp not chess since its not real-time... What is most important is WILL. If you really really want to you can achieve most things. | ||
|
iloveo.0
Egypt43 Posts
that is just koreans are nothing special...they are good at starcraft, cuz ppl there promote it. cuz they love games that is all. i really feel korean should brush their teeth. they smell like garlic | ||
|
NoName
United States1558 Posts
My bro was stationed there when he was in the army. | ||
|
NoName
United States1558 Posts
Same reason Americans are good at Basketball. Or other countries are good at football (what I call soccer ). | ||
|
HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On December 10 2002 22:13 maleorderbride wrote: i would have to mainly agree with where this thread is going; handspeed and clicking accuracy can be improved through simply repetition, but quick (corret)responses and "deep" thinking are something that you are basically born with, or at least unable to change at this point in your life. I think this "thinking" has a much more common name: intelligence. It does take the knowledge of the game and repition in order to learn how to apply your interlligence, and there most certainly are mental shortcuts in this game as in any other, but the bottom line is, some people will never be able to play at the same level because they are limited by their intelligence. If you disagree with me, then what is it that defines a gosu? I am not making the case that all gosus are geniuses, i am saying that i expect the average IQ of a "gosu" to be higher than that of the average person. If each person who plays doesn't have a theoretical cap then nazgul would not be ranked among the top players in the world. He said earlier in a post that he practices about 5 hours a day. Compare that to Patry's 10 hours, or boxer's 12--the point that im trying to make here is that yes dedication is a large part of the game, but just like in all other areas of life, dedication is not what dictates success. It would be a wonderful world if that was so, but success is dictated by chance, by work, an by ability. We can attempt to limit chance through planning and practice, and we can work at our goal all we want, but ultimately ability is necessary to take the final step. As far as ability is concerned, every persons ability or intelligence is different, and that provides the cap on your playing. Wow that's some right wing view you got there . I think intelligence certainly plays a role in sc skill but it's not as significant as you make it out to be. I think when ppl say "natural talent" in sc they are referring just as much, if not moreso, to things like hand dexterity and stamina, as opposed to intelligence. | ||
|
japan rules
Japan6 Posts
ROFL...it is just a game. Let;s see where else koreans excel? how about no where? well, not counting making kimchees. they eat kimchee and garlic ( kimchee got load of garlic) and try to scare off vampires and shit | ||
|
Stim_Abuser
United States1277 Posts
| ||
|
A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
About the idea of talent though. Yes there is a cap. But I don't think many people reach their actual cap. I'd say attitude is the number one factor in determining "talent". Especially in a game like BW where its not physical talent. There have been lots of times where I've felt "stuck" in terms of getting better. But I kept playing and trying to figure out ways to get better, and I broke through. The point is, if you stick with something, you can be very very good at it. Just don't quit. | ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
| ||
mensrea
Canada5062 Posts
Korea has without doubt the largest pool of gosu BW gamers in the world. That's a fact and I think it tells us a bit about "what makes a gosu" in this game. The fact that there are disproportionately large numbers of gosu players here tells me that "gosuness" is a result of practice and a supportive environment, not some ingrained "sense" of how the game works. If you believe that "natural talent" plays such an essential role in a gamer's abilities in a game like SC, what you're basically saying (at least in part) is that Koreans are SOMEHOW naturally talented at SC - more than peoples in any other culture. It may well be true, but I personally don't think so. Just more people are crazy about it here and will go to lengths to improve that people in other places wouldn't try (or at least a lot fewer would). It's called prioritization, and for more people here than in other countries, SC is at a higher order of priority. Not everyone can be Boxer. But I believe, with the proper attitude, the right environment, dedication and LOTS of practice, there may be more who can be "Just Like Mike" than we realize. | ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
| ||
|
beowolf7
Korea (South)68 Posts
Then... What about china? I think china exceeds or will exceeds soon korea in number of people playng SC. In addition, they are crazy about SC too. Is China gonna be No.1 gosu country of SC? also Russia is another big Country.  | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28701 Posts
I don't think the average korean is any more talented than the average european.. and there have been players from other countries that have managed to do well in tourneys in korea, however the amount of nonkoreans that have done well in korea is obviously a lot smaller than the number of koreans, simply cause there are more koreans that practice broodwar hard and really try to become gosu than nonkoreans.. I mean, players like grrr, elky, slayer and ntt have all proven that they're talented enough to do well even in korea. it's like football, the #100 player in brazil has more talent for football than the #10 player in norway, cause the pool of brazilian players is much larger than the pool of norwegian players. ^_^ | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
SMALL COUNTRY THAT OWNS AT EVERYTHING!!! --> soccer, swimming, judo, horseriding, volleyball,hockey, tennis, ( a little bit ) ETC ETC!!! | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28701 Posts
| ||
|
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
good keyboard control, good mouse control. you must know how to type, this is a basic keyboard skill and is 100% required. average to above average reflexes, average to above average dexterity and hand size. good vision. intelligence: ability to identify errors and learn from them. ability to rapidly sublimate game knowledge and imitate techniques stolen from others. ability to adapt. ability to think creatively. ability to anticipate. ability to visualize (see stuff before it happens and have responses prepared, then responses to his reponses and so forth). dedication: willing to put in countless hours of mind-dulling repetition. this is what practice is; doing fundamental tasks over and over and over until it becomes 2nd nature. willingness to lose alot. willingness to persevere. see elky. see boxer. i guess those are the basics. having confidence and believing in yourself is probably even more important but success cannot happen without the fundamentals. | ||
|
[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
On December 11 2002 16:52 Casper... wrote: basic physical ability: good keyboard control, good mouse control. you must know how to type, this is a basic keyboard skill and is 100% required. average to above average reflexes, average to above average dexterity and hand size. good vision. intelligence: nicely put ability to identify errors and learn from them. ability to rapidly sublimate game knowledge and imitate techniques stolen from others. ability to adapt. ability to think creatively. ability to anticipate. ability to visualize (see stuff before it happens and have responses prepared, then responses to his reponses and so forth). dedication: willing to put in countless hours of mind-dulling repetition. this is what practice is; doing fundamental tasks over and over and over until it becomes 2nd nature. willingness to lose alot. willingness to persevere. see elky. see boxer. i guess those are the basics. having confidence and believing in yourself is probably even more important but success cannot happen without the fundamentals. | ||
|
Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 11 2002 16:52 Casper... wrote: basic physical ability: good keyboard control, good mouse control. you must know how to type, this is a basic keyboard skill and is 100% required. average to above average reflexes, average to above average dexterity and hand size. good vision. intelligence: ability to identify errors and learn from them. ability to rapidly sublimate game knowledge and imitate techniques stolen from others. ability to adapt. ability to think creatively. ability to anticipate. ability to visualize (see stuff before it happens and have responses prepared, then responses to his reponses and so forth). dedication: willing to put in countless hours of mind-dulling repetition. this is what practice is; doing fundamental tasks over and over and over until it becomes 2nd nature. willingness to lose alot. willingness to persevere. see elky. see boxer. i guess those are the basics. having confidence and believing in yourself is probably even more important but success cannot happen without the fundamentals. Almost exactly my thoughts. If with ability to adapt you not only mean in-game stuff, but also to adapt depending on which map you're playing then I agree completely. | ||
|
tenbagger
United States1289 Posts
1) They practice like crazy and are very disciplined 2) They are skilled at strategy games | ||
|
tenbagger
United States1289 Posts
- china has maybe 30x as many people as korea and japan maybe 3x and korea still kicks their ass in GO. For those who don't kno, GO is the premier strategy game in the world with the top players making millions a year. And Go is just as big if not bigger in china and japan as in korea and they have the same infrastructure so you cant use the BW excuse there. I find this fact more amazing than korean domination in BW. In brood war you can make the claim that other cuontries don't have the "gaming environment". So despite the fact that there are propbably more BW gamers worldwide than in korea, most of those are BGH players rather than people who follow it on TV. So this gives koreans an advantage. However, in GO china and japan have the same playing field and many times as many people. It is just as important in those countries, yet koreans just keep on producing these 15 year old geniuses who can't be beaten. 3) Good hand-eye coordination - look at who won the gold medal in sports like archery, and air-pistol shooting or whatever it is. Not saying that they are superior to everyone else in the world, but that they have a natural inclination towards that area. Just like scandinavians are the world's strongest men and blacks rule track and field events. | ||
|
z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
doesn't make you good,it makes you worse. you need healthy lifestyle to be able to think to your full potential, smuft can back me up on that.. --; | ||
|
japan rules
Japan6 Posts
| ||
|
NoName
United States1558 Posts
But seriously, admins  | ||
|
iloveo.0
Egypt43 Posts
| ||
|
MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
I left Russia 3 years ago, Average pay there was about 100-150 USD a month and connection to internet cost about 50 USD a month - more expensive than in US or Canada! I believe it's still the same way. | ||
|
]TP[-EnvoY
Netherlands4 Posts
) then u should have talent (like a great advance of finding new strategies by yourself, (not just copy strategies in replays and play em 1000 times) or build orders by yourself, my friend ]TP[-TheConfed wich i played 2 years ago many starcraft, had also very good build orders, micro and a very good look on things, (he could b certainly in korea by now) but he also quit starcraft because every hour he was at home he spend it on starcraft, that why he quit, cause it isnt the game where u live for but after all, it think you can b gosu if you have talent (not certainly fast with the hand, cause all the koreans click like 1000 times on their mineral field, or send a unit 1000 times somewhere, if u click at once it should be good )gg~~ out, | ||
|
Villaret
Albania222 Posts
| ||
|
Veg
Canada2945 Posts
| ||
|
Stim_Abuser
United States1277 Posts
| ||
|
c19h28o2
United States17 Posts
| ||
|
c19h28o2
United States17 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28701 Posts
there are tons of players that play just as much as the pros, with just as much dedication, however they're just not talented enough to achieve the same level as them. =[ | ||
|
Gryffindor_us
United States5606 Posts
 | ||
|
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
a player who can move his mouse faster with the same accuracy as another player and think thru a situation faster but reach the same conclusion will win vs a player of the same technical skill and strategic knowledge. speed, intelligence, visual acuity, body control: this stuff is natural ability. not everyone is the same. however bw does not reward physical skills to the overwhelming extent that, say, quake3 does. it is an advantage tho. NO IM NOT DONE POUNDING THIS INTO YOUR THICK SKULLS player 1: visual acuity 80, handspeed 80, accuracy 80 player 2: visual acuity 60, handspeed 70, accuracy 90 scenario: player is terran, and has fast expanded vs protoss. protoss suicides a shuttle to land a reaver in his main peon line. now, player 1 sees the shuttle at say, 80% of it's actual appearance on the minimap. he selects 12 peons and right clicks them on his natural minerals. he goes back and repeats with the other scvs. player 1 will lose max 5 scvs, eating maybe 2 scarabs, but probably 1. player 2 will definitely eat 3 scarabs and lose at least 7 or 8 scvs. stuff like this happens every game, over and over. how fast you see the lurks and back up. how fast you react to a drop. how fast you react to a shuttle appearing on the edge of your screen. how fast you stim your rines. how fast you seige your tanks. how fast you lay mines. losing 2 less vults before doubling back and going around means you can kill alot more probes at that expansion before he gets there or have more vults in the exp after racing past cannons. stuff like this is very easy to understand. do not delude yourselves into thinking that you can be a professional just because you play all day. but in my original post i very clearly stated that pretty much any average person can become "gosu". so don't even bother trying to argue with me on this as i've already covered both sides. | ||
|
mensrea
Canada5062 Posts
Like I said, Boxer himself says "there's no substitute for practice." | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
While hand speed is a quality needed by any good SC player, I disagree that it is the greatest of all traits. Chojja, what about him? Having the reputation of the "Fastest Hands in SC" but he is still not ranked within the top 10 of players. To further argue against your point (heh, I might just be arguing for arguement's sake. I bother to try.) I believe Drone makes a better point that timing and intuition is a more important advantage than hand speed. Example: You choose to expand at the 3 position during mid-game; your main is 6 position. You bring the majority of your forces to about the middle of the map to intercept any hits on your main or your expansion. Your opponent comes into your base with a drop. You are bound to lose quite some, regardless of how good your hand speed is. With the drop position and timing, he is able to knock you down more than you can fend off the attack.And how do you get better at timing and intuition? By practicing, but at a higher level. SC is a game, true, but it's an RTS. It revolves around strategy and analysis. | ||
|
A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
| ||
|
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Macro is the broadest definition of a player's trait or style of gaming IMO. Macro in what sense? Resource based or unit based? And even then, macro of what types of units? | ||
|
MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
| ||
|
[orion]Jung Terran
Korea (South)7 Posts
| ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
1)Practice/Determination w/ Good Players 2)Intelligence/Knowledge 3)Hand Speed/Accuracy If you have all 3 of these, then you are bound to be a good SC player. If you are lacking in one of these areas, you have to be really good in the other 2 in order to make up for that. | ||
|
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
On December 13 2002 01:52 NeoIllusions wrote: Casper..., While hand speed is a quality needed by any good SC player, I disagree that it is the greatest of all traits. Chojja, what about him? Having the reputation of the "Fastest Hands in SC" but he is still not ranked within the top 10 of players. To further argue against your point (heh, I might just be arguing for arguement's sake. I bother to try.) I believe Drone makes a better point that timing and intuition is a more important advantage than hand speed. Example: You choose to expand at the 3 position during mid-game; your main is 6 position. You bring the majority of your forces to about the middle of the map to intercept any hits on your main or your expansion. Your opponent comes into your base with a drop. You are bound to lose quite some, regardless of how good your hand speed is. With the drop position and timing, he is able to knock you down more than you can fend off the attack.And how do you get better at timing and intuition? By practicing, but at a higher level. SC is a game, true, but it's an RTS. It revolves around strategy and analysis. i never said handspeed is the greatest of all traits. i said speed is the single greatest advantage one can have, all other things being equal. your 2nd paragraph reiterates your flawed interpretation of my initial statements. go re-read my stuff. yes sc is strategy and analysis. yes speed is an advantage. this is stuff i've already said. what exactly are you trying to say? that handspeed means less then strategy and analysis? i've already said that, and also noted that speed is an advantage. what exactly are you arguing? | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28701 Posts
| ||
|
0x64
Finland4574 Posts
Assimilation has been pointed out few times and it is how fast you will learn from your mistake, how much can you learn in a period of time. Stamina is really underestimated, if you are not in good shape you won't do good, you will tend to lose concentration (->bad timing -> intuition zerg is making mass bc...) and lose mouse speed. It doesn't mean that been good in sport is needed to be good in broodwar but that you have to do sports to be able to compete at your best (And I'm pretty sure boxer do physical exercices at least 1 hour a day). One last thing, experience, how much and how long have you been playing, affect your ability to manage pressure and stress. ps. the ability to play better under pressure...is a part of talent i think | ||
|
Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 13 2002 18:23 0x64 wrote: ps. the ability to play better under pressure...is a part of talent i think yes and a very important one too | ||
|
Majicou
United States106 Posts
On December 13 2002 16:45 Liquid`Drone wrote: mensrea honestly I think boxer is just saying that to be diplomatic. if the worlds greatest player said that he was the best player in the world cause he was the most talented player in the world (which I think is probably true ;/ ) then he'd be regarded as cocky.. when he says practice is more important he makes it seem like he's a hard worker instead, and nobody will regard him as cocky cause of that. ^_^ Perhaps you're right, but that doesn't mean what he's saying isn't true. Ask any olympic athlete what brought them to the top. It's the hard work. Now, natural talent is what helps get you going fast, and often dictates where you level off in improvement (how good you could possibly get). Not everyone of us can be Boxer but you don't need to be Boxer to be gosu . Talent, you can't control, but might as well do the best you can with what you can control . | ||
|
Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
noone on this forum could be better than Boxer not even if we played 20 hours a day | ||
|
Majicou
United States106 Posts
| ||
|
FrEaK[S.sIR]
2373 Posts
thats right, you all know who im talking about... MUMYUNG! hes a chubby boy =\ | ||
|
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
a big reason the best practice so hard is because it is neccessary to be able to find ways to win on your worst day. everyone can win when they're well rested, healthy, got pussy the night before, got 3 more bitches aching for your cock, got super practice the week before, etc. it's all about how you perform when you've had shit sleep, got the flu and have the runs and on top of that your bitch is shitting all over you 24/7 and on top of that you haven't been able to get any quality preparation in and now you're on national tv losing the game. can you find a way to win then? boxer and grrrr are the 2 guys who have shown they can win whenever, wherever and comeback from almost anything in the game so long as they are not in-the-ground dead. the fundamentals are what every player holds on to when the situation turns to shit. the more you practice, the stronger your fundamentals. | ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
On December 13 2002 19:06 [pG]Liquid`Nazgul wrote: practise is needed to develop the talent noone on this forum could be better than Boxer not even if we played 20 hours a day I disagree. I believe without a doubt that I can be as good as Lim Yo-whan. It's just that he's so many games of practice ahead of me. But if I were to suddenly get the privilidge of playing with gosu players non-stop, I believe I can get that good. I already have amazing keyboard skills. I can type almost 100 words per minute. My mouse skills are mediocre at best. What stops me from being good is that I don't have the experience it takes to beat someone as good as you Nazgul ^_^ ... | ||
|
FrEaK[S.sIR]
2373 Posts
Now that thats out of the way. How come if YOU can become as good as Lim Yo-Hwan, then why cant alot of the other pros cant. Theres obviously talent in that kid and you think you have that? Bullshit. Give boxer some credit. Hes got more than just practice in those games, hes got ingenius moves and psychotic maneuvers. Ya...your as good as boxer, thats a laugh. FrEaK | ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
| ||
|
NoName
United States1558 Posts
My eyes can stand the hours of replay watching with no prolem though. | ||
|
Construct
United States33 Posts
| ||
| ||
