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On July 07 2009 16:58 hymn wrote:
Wow, Caphe, thank you, that was useful.
I really like the way the Chinese are dealing with this riot. Stomp it and be done with it - that's the way to go with ethnic unrest IMO too. If you're a country that's not sanctioned by NATO that is. Serbia tried to do the same and NATO didn't allow it.
As for becoming a guest in your own house - if the population in Bulgaria changes in a few decades and most of it become gypsies and/or ethnic turkish - so be it. I can stay (most probably I would stay cause I don't mind gypsies and I like turkish people) or if I don't like them I can always pack my bags and say "Goodbye and thank you for the fish!". I can always accept an (inevitable) change.
The ol' taking over of a country without firing a single round.
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As for this massacre for Han Chinese, the reason is also due to these special policies!
Uighur revenge Han Chinese. Why? One week before, in one big factory in Guangdong province, there was a serious conflict between Uighur workers and Han Chinese workers. Two Uighur workers are killed. What's the reason for this conflict? It's due to special policies! Before this conflict, one Uighur worker raped several Han girls, but he was released again and again and police could do nothing for them. Han Chinese can bear other favarable policies, but they can't bear the favarable policy for minority criminals!
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On July 07 2009 17:10 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 16:54 asleepingpig wrote:
Uighur and other minorities are first class citizens in China, here are some facts:
1, Han Chinese family can only bear one child, but the minorities can bear two or more children.
2, Minorities can get favorable policy for University entrance exam.
3, Minorities thieives will not be arrested normally. In every cities, you can see a lot of thievies from Uighur, and the police can do nothing because of government special policy for minorities.
Another fact:
nearly 90% of Chinese are Han Chinese. But from 2000~2005, among 41 millions new borns, there are only 23 millions Han babies, 18 millions are minority babies.
why? Because minority are favored, so if Han people are married to minority, they will declare their babies are minority. Moreover, many pure Han families change their children race form han to minorities by illegal ways, so that their children are more competitive in University entrance exam.
Did BBC or CNN tell you all above facts? China, welcome to Europe! 
I visited Europe every year for business. It's a good place, but life in Europe is too expensive.
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On July 07 2009 17:05 asleepingpig wrote:
Btw, I am Han Chinese, and my wife is minority. We lives very well. And, according to the policy, we can have two babies, and if I declares my baby's race as minority, when they attend University entrance exam they can get additional 10 points into their total achievements. When they are adults, they can have more benefits.
We benefits from the policy, but I have to say that it's totally unfair.
Uh... wait, so, is it better to be minority than being Han ?
this is not EXACTLY what the protesters are saying....
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Those sneaky minorities somehow oppressing the majority who holds all the power as usual, grrn!!
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I visited Europe every year for business. It's a good place, but life in Europe is too expensive.
Agreed.
Depends on the country but in general, Europe is the best place to live.
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On July 07 2009 17:26 asleepingpig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 17:10 Aegraen wrote:On July 07 2009 16:54 asleepingpig wrote:
Uighur and other minorities are first class citizens in China, here are some facts:
1, Han Chinese family can only bear one child, but the minorities can bear two or more children.
2, Minorities can get favorable policy for University entrance exam.
3, Minorities thieives will not be arrested normally. In every cities, you can see a lot of thievies from Uighur, and the police can do nothing because of government special policy for minorities.
Another fact:
nearly 90% of Chinese are Han Chinese. But from 2000~2005, among 41 millions new borns, there are only 23 millions Han babies, 18 millions are minority babies.
why? Because minority are favored, so if Han people are married to minority, they will declare their babies are minority. Moreover, many pure Han families change their children race form han to minorities by illegal ways, so that their children are more competitive in University entrance exam.
Did BBC or CNN tell you all above facts? China, welcome to Europe! I visited Europe every year for business. It's a good place, but life in Europe is too expensive.
My point was, that the minority, or immigrant birth rates are much higher than the native people's birth rates. In fact, Europes native birth rates is actually NEGATIVE. The population is rapidly aging and the vast majority of births are coming from Middle Eastern and Muslim populations.
It is for all intents and purposes an invasion, thats usually why America had immigration quota's, but those pesky congress-critters want Amnesty so we can be like Europe. I'll pass, and I'm sure you'll government will awake one day. Wouldn't want that Chinese Culture to become a minority in the future. The government however, would be one happy day for me if it dissolved and formed itself a constitutional republic...I digress..
PS. Are the majority of people in China happy under the oppressive government?
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My point was, that the minority, or immigrant birth rates are much higher than the native people's birth rates. In fact, Europes native birth rates is actually NEGATIVE. The population is rapidly aging and the vast majority of births are coming from Middle Eastern and Muslim populations.
that's why in Japan, immigration is a very big issue and usually, people can't "become" Japanese. Also, imo, it's very hard for Alien to actually live in Japan...
PS : strange to think that maybe one day Europe could be muslim.
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On July 07 2009 17:27 MK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 17:05 asleepingpig wrote:
Btw, I am Han Chinese, and my wife is minority. We lives very well. And, according to the policy, we can have two babies, and if I declares my baby's race as minority, when they attend University entrance exam they can get additional 10 points into their total achievements. When they are adults, they can have more benefits.
We benefits from the policy, but I have to say that it's totally unfair. Uh... wait, so, is it better to be minority than being Han ? this is not EXACTLY what the protesters are saying....
According to China race policy, it is. But it doesn't means that there is no discrimination. China history is very complicated. There are 55 miniroties in China, among them there are 2 Muslim races. One of them is Uighurs and another is Hui. In history, there were wars between Uighurs and Hui, so they are hostile.
Nowadays most minorities are not discriminated. But Uighurs might have some problems. There is only one reason, Uighur thieves in every China city who are free from law. Nobody cannot hate them.
But for normal Uighurs, they are treated like foreigners as they say different language and their apprearance is totally different.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On July 07 2009 15:41 eMbrace wrote:
who are Uighurs?
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There is one Uighur restaurant near my office. I have dinner there sometimes. Their language is like Turkish, and many Uighurs cannot say correct Chinese (Han language). So it's quite difficult to communicate with them.
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On July 07 2009 17:51 MK wrote:Show nested quote +My point was, that the minority, or immigrant birth rates are much higher than the native people's birth rates. In fact, Europes native birth rates is actually NEGATIVE. The population is rapidly aging and the vast majority of births are coming from Middle Eastern and Muslim populations. that's why in Japan, immigration is a very big issue and usually, people can't "become" Japanese. Also, imo, it's very hard for Alien to actually live in Japan... PS : strange to think that maybe one day Europe could be muslim.
One day? Try very soon.
Maybe Europe will realize there mistake...
"Famille Chrétienne ask de Villiers : Why are you so focused on the theme of Turkey and Islamization?
"Quite simply because we will see the first transformations of churches into mosques in the coming three years. At any rate, that is what Nicolas Sarkozy told me."
So Nicholas Sarkozy, the president of France, a Christian country, which sent Knights to the Holy Land under order of the Pope to take back Jerusalem and stop persecution of Christians by Muslims is not going to do anything while Islam converts churches to Mosques? I wonder how France's Christian population thinks on this?
Famille Chrétienne ask de Villiers : When?
"I had an in depth discussion with him at Elysée at the end of last year. He said to me: "You have intuition, I have the figures. And your intuition is confirmed by my figures. The Islamization of Europe is inevitable." Careful: it's a process that will not occur overnight, but will take decades."
"Famille Chrétienne ask de Villiers : Why does this issue appear to be of central importance to you?
"Most politicians have a comforting ignorance of what Islam is and propose transforming Europe into a supermarket of competing religions. Unaware that Islam is not only a religion since, by melding the temporal and the spiritual, it imposes a law. But behind this comforting ignorance of politicians, there are those who know. (...) The reality is that we are headed for a criss-cross (chassé-croisé) with, on one side, Europe and its en masse abortions, its promotion of gay marriage, and on the other, immigration en masse" (...)"
"Famille Chrétienne ask de Villiers : Aren't you exaggerating the dimensions of the phenomenon?
"No. The crux of the issue is simple: Europe is refusing its own demographic future. And it is working with a fearsome weapon towards this end, written into the Charter of fundamental rights appended to the treaty of Lisbon: the promotion of gay marriage. This in turn is accomplished through the principle of non-discrimination and the disassociation of marriage from the sex of the spouses (which appears in article 7 of the Charter of fundamental rights). In reality, there are two weapons being used by European leaders to kill Europe demographically: the promotion of gay marriage and en masse abortions. And a third: the recourse to immigration that is 80% Islamic in order to replace the people who are no longer there" (...)"
Nicolas Sarkozy's own words...Europe might want to heed these and all other countries might want to watch and take notes :cough: America.
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On July 07 2009 17:54 Clasic wrote:
One of the Muslim races in China.
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On July 07 2009 17:46 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 17:26 asleepingpig wrote:On July 07 2009 17:10 Aegraen wrote:On July 07 2009 16:54 asleepingpig wrote:
Uighur and other minorities are first class citizens in China, here are some facts:
1, Han Chinese family can only bear one child, but the minorities can bear two or more children.
2, Minorities can get favorable policy for University entrance exam.
3, Minorities thieives will not be arrested normally. In every cities, you can see a lot of thievies from Uighur, and the police can do nothing because of government special policy for minorities.
Another fact:
nearly 90% of Chinese are Han Chinese. But from 2000~2005, among 41 millions new borns, there are only 23 millions Han babies, 18 millions are minority babies.
why? Because minority are favored, so if Han people are married to minority, they will declare their babies are minority. Moreover, many pure Han families change their children race form han to minorities by illegal ways, so that their children are more competitive in University entrance exam.
Did BBC or CNN tell you all above facts? China, welcome to Europe! I visited Europe every year for business. It's a good place, but life in Europe is too expensive. My point was, that the minority, or immigrant birth rates are much higher than the native people's birth rates. In fact, Europes native birth rates is actually NEGATIVE. The population is rapidly aging and the vast majority of births are coming from Middle Eastern and Muslim populations. It is for all intents and purposes an invasion, thats usually why America had immigration quota's, but those pesky congress-critters want Amnesty so we can be like Europe. I'll pass, and I'm sure you'll government will awake one day. Wouldn't want that Chinese Culture to become a minority in the future. The government however, would be one happy day for me if it dissolved and formed itself a constitutional republic...I digress.. PS. Are the majority of people in China happy under the oppressive government?
Yes, we heard many news for Muslims in France. I will not be suprise if one day France bacome a Muslim country.
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On July 07 2009 17:17 asleepingpig wrote:
As for this massacre for Han Chinese, the reason is also due to these special policies!
Uighur revenge Han Chinese. Why? One week before, in one big factory in Guangdong province, there was a serious conflict between Uighur workers and Han Chinese workers. Two Uighur workers are killed. What's the reason for this conflict? It's due to special policies! Before this conflict, one Uighur worker raped several Han girls, but he was released again and again and police could do nothing for them. Han Chinese can bear other favarable policies, but they can't bear the favarable policy for minority criminals!
Uighurs should go to Afghanistan : rape is legal there 
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The Chinese do not fear multiculturalism as such, what they fear is is political nationalism under any pretension other than the mainstream "Chinese" one. Both their protection of minority cultures and demographic dilution of minority populations are examples of that. The Chinese nationality policy operates on a complementary principle: loyalty to a central Chinese nation on one hand, and a secondary minority nation on the other, are not mutually exclusive.
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On July 07 2009 17:33 MK wrote:Show nested quote +I visited Europe every year for business. It's a good place, but life in Europe is too expensive. Agreed. Depends on the country but in general, Europe is the best place to live.
Europe is sweet. But there are issues too with immigration in alot of countries and the racism is more hidden than in asian countries
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Religion in Europe is becomeing less and less meaningfull. Alot of people seem to think that we are being invaded or whatever since ethnic people are having less offspring. Alot of people talk about muslim immigrants as a problem since they wont be assimilated as easily as for eksampel eastern europeans. But once you hit the 4th or 5th generation of immigrants they will be about as ethnic as you are, the only thing that makes you different is that you view them differently than pure ethnics.
I belive the problem is that we arent used to having so different cultures this close to home, and this is biggest test modern tolerance will face for a long time. All cultures chance constantly and its not gonna be for better or for worse. All the conservative talking is really anoying me, people need to work with what they got to create a better future not sit around grumbling about how much better things used to be. For most cases, the past sucks way harder than the present or future.
edit: that was more of a rant than i had intended 
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Let me answer some of the questions:
1. Who are the Han Chinese?
Han Chinese are what most people think of when they think of a "chinese person". Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Zhang Ziyi and Gong Li are all examples of Han Chinese.
2. I'm not Han Chinese. What race am I?
There are 2 other races - barbarians and devils.
If your ancestors invaded China mainly from the Eastern coast, you're probably a devil. You might be an "old devil" or a "red haired devil" if you're white. If you're Jap you're a "small Jap devil" and so on.
If your ancestors (a) raped and pillaged their way across China from the North or West and (b) lived in tents and rode horses, you're probably a barbarian. And just because your ancestors actually managed to conquer China, like the Mongols and the Manchus, that doesn't make you any less of a barbarian. Just a more successful one that eventually saw the superiority of Chinese culture and was absorbed into it.
If your ancestors didn't try to attack China, you don't really fit into a category, but you're probably classed as a barbarian anyway.
3. So, who are the Uighurs?
They're a minority in China of Turkish descent living in the Northwest of China, so not only did their ancestors live in tents and ride horses, they have white skin too! Talk about not fitting in! They're also mostly Muslim, but that is not really a problem as we will see...
4. Where is Xinjiang?
Xinjiang is the Uighur's home in Northwestern China. It is one of the poorest provinces and is huge but sparsely populated.
5. Is religion a problem?
The Uighurs are mainly Muslim, unlike the Han Chinese. I don't know if this was a concern during the communist era, but it's certainly not a concern now. The Chinese government doesn't care about its people's religion as long as there is no conflict with loyalty to China. So Catholicism is seen as a threat because Catholics are technically loyal to the Pope, who is not under China's control. It's like a more extreme version of outlawing Jehovah's Witnesses. Buddhism is NOT a problem, except in Tibet where buddhists are seen to owe their loyalty to the Dalai Lama, who again is not under China's control. As far as I know, the Muslims in Xinjiang face no such problems.
6. What's the problem in Xinjiang?
There are ethnic tensions in Xinjiang between the Uighurs and Han Chinese. This could be because Xinjiang is a very poor place, and both sides blame each other for stealing jobs and so forth. Poverty breeds extremism, after all.
To make matters worse, the Chinese government feels threatened by the Uighurs because some of them agitate for an independent state. So it's been encouraging Han Chinese to move to Xinjiang so that the Uighurs are no longer as dominant as they used to be. This is why the Tibetans hate the idea of the new railroad linking China to Tibet - they fear a huge influx of Han Chinese, thus eventually making them a minority.
Agitating for an independent state is a big no no in China. Almost every single dynasty has fallen because someone decides to rebel and make himself emperor. As a result, the Chinese government (and, indeed, the people of China themselves) are desperate for a strong, united China. Naturally, Uighurs wanting an independent state makes the Chinese very uncomfortable.
So of course, with the Uighurs perceiving themselves as being under threat, they start eying the Han Chinese with suspicion and agitate even more for an independent state.
Since Xinjiang is such a poor place, some Uighurs have immigrated to other parts of China, and some cause trouble and are immediately identified because they look so different. That has led to some Han Chinese labelling Uighurs as thieves and so on (the same way blacks used to be labelled as thieves in South Africa or America).
But the thing is, the Chinese government doesn't care about the Uighurs as a race. All it cares about is that they don't make trouble, especially in Xinjiang. Elsewhere, they're not numerous enough to be a threat. So Uighurs get the same priviledges as other minorities in China - they can have more than one child and so on (asleepingpig pointed them out). So the Han Chinese see a bunch of perceived thieves getting special priviledges and they don't like that either.
So it's complicated and messy.
7. What started these riots?
2 Uighur migrants in Guangdong were accused of attacking a Han Chinese woman. They were killed by a mob. Uighurs aren't happy with the police reaction so they decided to riot.
Some Han Chinese are convinced that the 2 Uighurs were guilty as sin and they deserved to be torn apart, others think otherwise... and it's worth bearing in mind that the Chinese criminal justice system is pretty inefficient. I don't want to go into a whole examination of the Chinese psyche and justice system and what have you... it's just complicated.
The Chinese government is blaming the World Uighur Congress, an overseas group, of having masterminded the riots. Smells of bullshit to me. The Chinese government needs better spin doctors, seriously.
8. Uighur... Uighur... where have I heard that before?
Some of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners are Uighurs. The US wanted to ship them back to Xinjiang, but is unable to because China claims that they ARE terrorists and there's a chance they will face human rights abuses. It would be bad to hand them over, but nobody else really wants to take them because that would piss China off.
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EPT
