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Software Livre

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Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-28 19:40:15
April 28 2009 16:45 GMT
#1
I've read a very interesting article in the Linux Magazine the other day and I thought I'd share it with you as it might lead to quite a discussion.


Would maddog use Windows, if it would be free software?


by Jon "maddog" Hall

      Recently, I took part in a meeting for 4Linux company from Sao Paulo in Brasil. One of its parts were questions from audience. There was a lot of them and unfortunately, because of the time restrictions, I couldn't answer them all. However, after the meeting was closed, 4Linux director, Marcelo Marques, has sent me a question asked by a young student - Lucas Schenkel Schieferdecker - and asked about my comments. I've concluded that it was interesting enough, for me to write an article about it this month.
      The question was: "Would you use Windows, if it were Software Livre (free software)?".
      As a matter of priority, I have to explain what do I mean, when I say Software Livre. In this case, it's something different than we usually mean when we're using the term open software. For many years I've been using open source programs under the native versions of BSD Unix and other operating systems, where software distributors are not obliged to release the source code. Usually, this programs were very good, but sooner or later, I needed their source, to fix some problem or to make slight modifications, and unfortunately, I didn't have such an option.
      If I were to even think about using Windows software, my first term would be, for this software to be really "free" (free, as in the word freedom). Its source code readily available, and its licence not limiting me in any way as to the ways of using it. I think, that such freedom is found in GPL. Some say, that GPL is more restrictive than BSD, but Lucas' question was about the terms, Windows would have to comply to, for me to start using it. My basic criteria then, is: Windows would have to be "free software" under the GPL licence, and not just "open software".
      I have nothing against paying for software. In my life, I have bought a lot of programs, cheaper and more expensive ones. Because of my education (and my nature) I've never bought many of them, as I was able to write down or modify software, that I needed at the time, myself, and operating systems like Unix or GNU/Linux, provided me with necessary tools. I think, that software developers have the right to decide, what do they do with it, so if they want to sell it as a product, and their creation fulfills my needs and seems worth its price, I will certainly pay for it. Unfortunately, quite often, very restrictive licences are lowering the products worth to zero, and because I'm for following the licence to the letter, I can't use their programs.
      If I would be using Windows, would depend majorly on its worth. The fact is, however, that Microsoft Windows is worth very little, as majorly it's just an operating system; it doesn't contain any compilators or any really useful programs. Many products, that user gets free of charge when buying new computer, is just creators way to force him to buy costly upgrades/extensions. They give us a shaver, and wait until we buy the blades. When we finally buy the rest of the programs, that will make our system worth anything (for example Microsoft Office, Adobe Photoshop or software for multimedia development), it may occur to us, that our expenses have reached hundreds or even thousands of dollars per computer. Assuming, that some of those programs are also Software Livre, I wouldn't mind paying for them, under the condition, that I could all by myself upgrade, extend and even copy them temporarily on another machine without triggering anti-piracy alarms.
      GNU/Linux meanwhile, provides me with all the tools I need at work, every day some new show up. So, my next term would be for most - if not all - software working under Windows (especially those, that I need), to also be Software Livre.
      Third term is more of a personal thing: I like to have several user interface options. I have nothing against learning how to use new interface or familiarising with command line program, if it's gonna help me in my work. Many people avoid the command line, preferring the graphical interface in the style of Microsoft Windows, however, I'm not one of them. For me to think about using Microsoft products, they would need to have rich, fully functional and system integrated command line interface.
      Last, important in my eyes element is quality. I was once working for a software development company, so I know how hard it is to create a good quality product, that would meet the expectations of hundreds of millions of customers. I also understand problems associated with analysing, testing and distributing actualizations, however, I like to decide myslef, when and which patches to install. It is also mostly available only in open source code.
      Would I use Microsoft Windows if it would be Software Livre then? Perhaps, in the past, but this times have already gone. I have everything I need in readily available Software Livre products, so Microsoft would have to do something really spectacular, for me to switch to it.


Sorry for my bad english. I tried to translate as accurately as my lowly language skills allow.

So, what do you guys (and girls) think?
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 28 2009 16:58 GMT
#2
I think I agree with him on pretty much every count (but then again, seeing as I've been running Linux exclusively for about the past 6 months now, thats probably not surprising).
Moderator
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
April 28 2009 17:22 GMT
#3
We'll, he is a programmer tho. From the point of view of a software developer, comparing Linux to Windows is like comparing heaven to hell (and you'd even have to pay to go to hell).
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
April 28 2009 17:23 GMT
#4
weird, i like developing in windows better than in any Linux env.
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
April 28 2009 17:29 GMT
#5
On April 29 2009 02:23 FreeZEternal wrote:
weird, i like developing in windows better than in any Linux env.
My older brother likes driving his old junk from 1970 better than any other car :p
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-28 17:35:13
April 28 2009 17:33 GMT
#6
why is Windows a bad env for software dev? Don't get me wrong I do use Linux at home but I just think a lot of ppl are jumping to the Linux bandwagon
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
April 28 2009 17:55 GMT
#7
On April 29 2009 02:33 FreeZEternal wrote:
why is Windows a bad env for software dev? Don't get me wrong I do use Linux at home but I just think a lot of ppl are jumping to the Linux bandwagon
Because.. it is open source...? And you can change anything you want to fit your specific needs? I made a small patch to my IDE so I could use it see my 3d modeler's API, and patched the 3d modeler so it's native text editor fits the scripting workflow I was used to. Those would either be impossible using windows and windows programs or would take millions of years more than the couple of hours that took me to do all of these. Now I have much more efficient working environment simply because the software and OS I am using are open source. This should be pretty obvious to be honest :p
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
April 28 2009 18:53 GMT
#8
Im such a windows whore.. One of these days though!
I agree with everything. Especially the part about them filling the computer with trials and whatnot
indecision
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Germany818 Posts
April 28 2009 18:58 GMT
#9
I don't know, I've found Visual Studio so much superior to Linux especially when it comes to debugging. What are you guys using to program / debug C,C++,Fortran?

Also: I kinda like Microsoft Office, plus it's used everywhere and you won't have to worry about compatibility.

I could probably handle being on a Linux machine, but I'd miss some stuff.
SoulMarine
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States586 Posts
April 28 2009 19:29 GMT
#10
tl, dr ..

I'm into gaming, not modding, so I'm into PC, and linux has no particular highlights (imo).

I'd live, though.

Now mac, what are we going to do with you ..
베이비 폭스 WeMade 파이팅! ~ WeMade 팬 ~ BaBy 팬 ~ щ(゚Д゚щ) Gee Gee Gee Gee BaBy BaBy BaBy ♫♫
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
April 28 2009 19:59 GMT
#11
Dunno those are some extraordinary circumstances. I have never needed to patch my IDE nor play with it's source code. Anways, Visual Studio is a beast if you are in a .NET environment.
b3h47pte
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States1317 Posts
April 28 2009 20:15 GMT
#12
On April 29 2009 02:33 FreeZEternal wrote:
why is Windows a bad env for software dev? Don't get me wrong I do use Linux at home but I just think a lot of ppl are jumping to the Linux bandwagon


I love Visual Studios. Not a fan of the linux stuff, tried to use Code::Blocks before, just wasn't worth the effort. Not saying programming on Linux is bad, i've just never taken the time to try and besides , being a game programmer, programming on linux offers me nothing.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-28 20:36:42
April 28 2009 20:20 GMT
#13
On April 29 2009 03:58 indecision wrote:
I don't know, I've found Visual Studio so much superior to Linux especially when it comes to debugging. What are you guys using to program / debug C,C++,Fortran?

I find that most stuff I work with is either small enough that a text editor is better for being lightweight (e.g. classwork), or large enough that using an IDE would be cumbersome (open source projects). As far as debugging goes, GDB works just fine for most of what I need to work with.

On April 29 2009 03:58 indecision wrote:
Also: I kinda like Microsoft Office, plus it's used everywhere and you won't have to worry about compatibility.

It takes a bit of getting used to, but OpenOffice's interface is fairly intuitive for someone used to Microsoft Office.

Also, any academic writer in a scientific/mathematical field should know LaTeX.
Moderator
b3h47pte
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States1317 Posts
April 28 2009 20:23 GMT
#14
I despise OpenOffice. It runs so slowly...
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
April 28 2009 20:49 GMT
#15

Would I use Microsoft Windows if it would be Software Livre then? Perhaps, in the past, but this times have already gone. I have everything I need in readily available Software Livre products, so Microsoft would have to do something really spectacular, for me to switch to it.


This is the exact reason I use windows and have absolutely nothing to gain from a switch
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 11:08:22
April 29 2009 10:52 GMT
#16
On April 29 2009 05:23 b3h47pte wrote:
I despise OpenOffice. It runs so slowly...


Perhaps. But it has much better word editor, only worse calc than mso (and I never really used excel).

Also a question for you guys, because I've never really been into this stuff: Why all the games are released for DirectX now, and not OpenGL? If I remember correctly, OpenGL was better back in the days (Q3 Arena anyone?).

Edit:
Okay, I've found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D
But could someone explain this to me briefly? (I'm really no good when it comes to graphics and how API's communicate with hardware etc.)
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
April 29 2009 11:24 GMT
#17
There just isn't really any advantage to using linux if you don't know programming.

If you do know programming, then yeah I could see you wanting to be able to rewrite your OS and make tweaks, etc.

Still, seems like a trivial advantage
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15328 Posts
April 29 2009 11:32 GMT
#18
On April 29 2009 20:24 -orb- wrote:
There just isn't really any advantage to using linux if you don't know programming.

If you do know programming, then yeah I could see you wanting to be able to rewrite your OS and make tweaks, etc.

Still, seems like a trivial advantage

Well that is just wrong. The convenience and ease of modern linux systems is appealing to many people who have no programming or technical background at all.

My sis for example would never go back to Windows I bet because she wants her computer to just work for her daily tasks.

Granted, for programmers, Linux is especially interesting.

Btw shouldn't it be Software Libre?
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 11:55:09
April 29 2009 11:54 GMT
#19
On April 29 2009 19:52 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2009 05:23 b3h47pte wrote:
I despise OpenOffice. It runs so slowly...


Perhaps. But it has much better word editor, only worse calc than mso (and I never really used excel).

Also a question for you guys, because I've never really been into this stuff: Why all the games are released for DirectX now, and not OpenGL? If I remember correctly, OpenGL was better back in the days (Q3 Arena anyone?).

Edit:
Okay, I've found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D
But could someone explain this to me briefly? (I'm really no good when it comes to graphics and how API's communicate with hardware etc.)
There are zero technical reasons. Both have the same capabilities. The reason why most games use windows and directx instead of linux and opengl is the same reason why this guy is saying this:
On April 29 2009 03:58 indecision wrote:
Also: I kinda like Microsoft Office, plus it's used everywhere and you won't have to worry about compatibility.
And why this guy is saying this:
On April 29 2009 05:15 b3h47pte wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2009 02:33 FreeZEternal wrote:
why is Windows a bad env for software dev? Don't get me wrong I do use Linux at home but I just think a lot of ppl are jumping to the Linux bandwagon
I love Visual Studios. Not a fan of the linux stuff, tried to use Code::Blocks before, just wasn't worth the effort. Not saying programming on Linux is bad, i've just never taken the time to try and besides , being a game programmer, programming on linux offers me nothing.
The reason is very simple: Monopoly. Proprietary software uses compatibility to create a monopoly. And you guys bite the bait like little mice running blindly into a trap. And as you can read from this thread, most mice actually think "I'm so smart, I found a cheese!".

That has a name, it's called Vendor Lock-in in economics, and wikipedia explains it really well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in
"vendor lock-in, also known as proprietary lock-in, or customer lock-in, makes a customer dependent on a vendor for products and services, unable to use another vendor without substantial switching costs.
[...]
Since the late 1990s[citation needed], the use of free and open source software (FOSS) has been pushed[who?] as a stronger solution. Because FOSS can be modified and distributed by anyone, the availability of functionality cannot tie a user to one distributor. Also, FOSS tends to adhere faithfully to standards[citation needed]. The ineffectiveness of distributor lock-in means there's no incentive for FOSS developers to invent new data formats if usable (royalty-free) standards exist."

It's funny that some people think linux has problems with compatibility? hehe it's the other way around actually. Linux is actually compatible with everything in the planet, it is the proprietary software that is incompatible with anything else other than itself. But since you guys started using proprietary software in the first place, now you're chained to it and now you're incompatible to linux because you're too lazy to be more efficient.
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
April 29 2009 12:01 GMT
#20
Maddog put forth some very solid arguments for open source. Unfortunately the real battle for Windows vs Linux has nothing to do with technical or quality superiority.

Work in vendor distribution for a few months and watch how the fucktards make a science out of how to upsell and leech the poor people who are forced to use Windows.

There are nothing wrong with Window as a product but the way they control the market is disgusting.

As for programming, I like the single framework and consistencies of Windows Development. Visual Studio is imo the best IDE out there, I've being using Linux for counting 4 years now and I can't stand any of the IDEs on there. I just went and use command line and i miss code completion features >.<
Rillanon.au
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
April 29 2009 12:08 GMT
#21
Microsoft's historic advantage in compatibility has nothing to do with their innovation or engineering.
They ran a partner business model that basically tie themselves to this gigantic alliance of technology vendors which privilege them to informations. Linux development have to count on reverse engineering and manufacturer handout to write their drivers.

What would happen when a vendor goes out of business? You are fucked because the driver is close sourced and no updates will happen.

You can't win versus corporations that had centuries of experiences on how to screw you.
Rillanon.au
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 12:14:30
April 29 2009 12:12 GMT
#22
On April 29 2009 21:01 haduken wrote:
As for programming, I like the single framework and consistencies of Windows Development. Visual Studio is imo the best IDE out there, I've being using Linux for counting 4 years now and I can't stand any of the IDEs on there. I just went and use command line and i miss code completion features >.<
Are you saying linux IDEs don't have code completation? O.o Hope I misunderstand you, because there are thousands of free IDEs with code completation for both windows and linux and have been for over 10 years.

Check:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
distant_voice
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Germany2521 Posts
April 29 2009 12:22 GMT
#23
off topic: currently when you run Starcraft in Wine, there's a noticable delay when using the mouse. I thought I could circumvent that when I installed Starcraft inside a virtual machine using Virtualbox, but the delay there is the same. Is that ever going to go away or is there no way to fix it?
This is my truth, tell me yours!
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 12:39:43
April 29 2009 12:34 GMT
#24
On April 29 2009 21:22 distant_voice wrote:
off topic: currently when you run Starcraft in Wine, there's a noticable delay when using the mouse. I thought I could circumvent that when I installed Starcraft inside a virtual machine using Virtualbox, but the delay there is the same. Is that ever going to go away or is there no way to fix it?


Have you tried Cenega? I've heard it can work wonders in this department (although it's not free as I understand it).

On April 29 2009 20:32 zatic wrote:

Btw shouldn't it be Software Libre?


I just used the same form as maddog in his artice. I guess he opted for livre instead of libre because the meeting he was answering the questions at was in Brasil. Hence, portuguese instead of spanish.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
April 29 2009 12:38 GMT
#25
On April 29 2009 21:12 VIB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2009 21:01 haduken wrote:
As for programming, I like the single framework and consistencies of Windows Development. Visual Studio is imo the best IDE out there, I've being using Linux for counting 4 years now and I can't stand any of the IDEs on there. I just went and use command line and i miss code completion features >.<
Are you saying linux IDEs don't have code completation? O.o Hope I misunderstand you, because there are thousands of free IDEs with code completation for both windows and linux and have been for over 10 years.

Check:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments


of course, code completion is not exactly new. i was giving a comparison based on my own experience. i still find that programming under linux is better done with just vi and gcc (sorry i'm c/c++ program). I liked code blocks but never got into it, i liked eclipse and netbeans but they both too slow for my needs. there are more out there of course but you can't argue as an IDE, visual studio is pretty good.
Rillanon.au
distant_voice
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Germany2521 Posts
April 29 2009 12:50 GMT
#26
On April 29 2009 21:34 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2009 21:22 distant_voice wrote:
off topic: currently when you run Starcraft in Wine, there's a noticable delay when using the mouse. I thought I could circumvent that when I installed Starcraft inside a virtual machine using Virtualbox, but the delay there is the same. Is that ever going to go away or is there no way to fix it?


Have you tried Cenega? I've heard it can work wonders in this department (although it's not free as I understand it).


I tried cedega 2 years ago and it didn't really live up to my expectations so I unsubscribed my membership. maybe they improved but by now I bought my version of windows so I don't want to pay another 45€ a year just to get around a reboot. if cedega can do what I want now wine will be able to do it in a couple of months (I hope).
my question was: can you get rid of the delay or is the no way around it because of the nature of emulators (or something like that...)?
This is my truth, tell me yours!
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
April 29 2009 13:13 GMT
#27
it's very unlikely that you would get the same performance under Linux which is a real shame consider how popular Starcraft is. Counter strike on the other hand is working pretty much flawlessly.

This is another example of close source awesomeness. the community have extended their needs of the original product but the company who made them don't give a shit >.<

Rillanon.au
prOxi.swAMi
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Australia3091 Posts
April 29 2009 13:31 GMT
#28
Third term is more of a personal thing: I like to have several user interface options. I have nothing against learning how to use new interface or familiarising with command line program, if it's gonna help me in my work. Many people avoid the command line, preferring the graphical interface in the style of Microsoft Windows, however, I'm not one of them. For me to think about using Microsoft products, they would need to have rich, fully functional and system integrated command line interface.

It's called windows powershell Oo... (and it's free)
Oh no
0xDEADBEEF
Profile Joined September 2007
Germany1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 13:46:43
April 29 2009 13:42 GMT
#29
On April 29 2009 20:54 VIB wrote:
And you guys bite the bait like little mice running blindly into a trap. And as you can read from this thread, most mice actually think "I'm so smart, I found a cheese!".
[...]
"vendor lock-in, also known as proprietary lock-in, or customer lock-in, makes a customer dependent on a vendor for products and services, unable to use another vendor without substantial switching costs.
[...]
It's funny that some people think linux has problems with compatibility? hehe it's the other way around actually. Linux is actually compatible with everything in the planet, it is the proprietary software that is incompatible with anything else other than itself. But since you guys started using proprietary software in the first place, now you're chained to it and now you're incompatible to linux because you're too lazy to be more efficient.


The last part is completely true.
But still you fail to see the real reasons, and most often it's not stupidity or laziness.
Windows has 2 key advantages over Linux, and those two are the main reasons why people use it instead of Linux: applications and look+feel+integrity.

I'll start with the second.

In Windows, everything is seamlessly integrated. That's a huge, HUGE bonus. There is no such thing as different look+feel for the most part. And if you know Apple, if you have used OSX or an iPhone, you'll realize what look+feel really means. It's not just something irrelevant. It makes the difference between people completely enjoying to use a program, merely using it because they have to, or totally hating to use it (so they'll ditch it and move on to a "better" one ASAP).

And in case you didn't know, most people really do prefer and want beautiful and usable desktops. In any forum, the screenshot thread is probably one of the most active and most-viewed threads, even in Linux forums people are proud to show off with their desktops.
Why is MacOS gaining ground much more quickly than Linux, despite having way more security issues, and pretty much no advantage in applications? Simple: much better look+feel. People love Apple's designs for almost everything, and people hate ugly Linux apps/desktops.

Now to the first and most important aspect.

Windows is not that big because it's totally superior or something, it's big because most applications are only written for Windows. If you need any such application, you're tied to it. And this has nothing to do with "being too lazy" or even "being stupid and walking into that trap"... because sometimes there are simply no equivalents, so you HAVE to use it because otherwise you can't get done what you want to do.

The world isn't perfect. Some Windows-only programs already turned into an "industry standard". Programs like Photoshop, 3D Studio Max, Premiere, or other similarly big and widely used tools. You can find great job offers if you're good at any such program. You could also try to come along and say "Yeah fine but hey I'm good with Blender or Gimp! Hire me!" ... well guess what, it doesn't matter... you won't get a job for that, you won't find certificates or courses using that, and you'll realize that if you had learned Photoshop or 3D Studio Max instead you'd be better off in a lot of ways. Industry standard pretty much means standard, whether it's a real standard or not.

I know that this sucks, and I would really like things to change, but to be honest I think it won't ever happen (I did think differently in the past). Things are pretty much set into stone and not ever going to move.
Always remember the real reason why things are like they are: people don't want to use computers, or operating systems. People want to use applications, and they want to use the best and easiest ones, no matter if they cost a small fortune, are totally unfree or incompatible with other software.

Linux simply has no equivalents in some areas. As a Linux advocate you'll probably try and link to things like OpenXchange, OpenOffice, Gimp etc... and try to convince everyone else that these are not only completely equivalent and compatible but maybe even superior. But the problem is all of these have one or more significant weaknesses compared to the "industry standard" programs, so no matter how hard you try, people are still only going to use the one program which will get their job done in the fastest and easiest way possible. And most Linux advocates haven't actually tried all the programs they want to recommend, they just Google around and see "oh nice there's this Exchange replacement which is totally free, fuck Exchange who needs that now"... but in reality it's not gonna compare.

Of course some apps are theoretically sufficient for many people, for example OpenOffice or Gimp, but most people seem to prefer the look+feel of e.g Photoshop (compared to Gimp). So what do you think they will use? Gimp, because it's free as in speech and beer? Nope... they'll take better look+feel over "freedom" in an instant and are even willing to pay for it at a premium (c.f. pretty much anything Apple produces).

Plus, everyone uses a different subset of features in a program, so programs which can do almost anything (and offer multiple ways to do a certain task) have yet another advantage over programs which can't do everything but are theoretically "sufficient for everyone".

Another problem which makes Windows unlikely to go away (or Linux to replace it on the desktop) is that most top-notch free software applications (Firefix, OpenOffice, Pidgin, Gimp, Apache, PHP, Python, and many more...) are ALSO available on Windows.

So in a way, Windows users are actually very smart. They pay a little bit to gain access to *everything*, while Linux users always have to make compromises and give up on features/games/etc. all in the name of "freedom"/ethics.
Of course, this is not because Linux sucks or Windows is inherently superior, it's just the result of the whole world developing mostly for Windows, and doing so for decades.

Windows clients and at least one Windows server also make a lot of sense in corporate environments because you can *easily* lock down and centrally configure/manage machines via group policies and stuff like that. Plus there's mighty Exchange in combination with Outlook... to which nothing compares at all. And I really do mean nothing.
Again: integrity and application advantage.
Do you think people will feel more free when they give up on these things and use Open Source software instead? No... quite the opposite. That's one huge problem for Linux advocates - you simply cannot gain new users if you go with the "free" or "ethical" route. People don't care about that - they just care about *getting things done*.

I've just read that Andrew S. Tanenbaum, author of Minix, is now trying to make Minix the most secure and technologically advanced OS (kernel) on the planet. I even think he might succeed with that, seeing that Minix has probably the cleanest and most efficient kernel architecture of all operating systems.
But no one uses Minix, and I predict no one will ever start using it except very few technically interested people. And why is that? Well, duh... the reason is, of course, APPLICATIONS. Minix has zero, not counting some Unix/GNU ports.
In comparison, Linux has quite a surprisingly large amount but nowhere near enough to provide everything that people need. Almost no games too.
MacOS also doesn't have everything, it's similar to Linux application-wise.
So which system has *everything* (and for each category at least one application which is really insanely good and very usable, unlike - say - video editing apps on Linux)?
That's right - Windows.

Next time you laugh about Windows users, keep that in mind. Sure there are many really stupid Windows lusers, and many Windows users who could (and should) use something else instead but they just don't know better. But TONS of normal users, IT professionals, developers, admins, etc. etc. also have really good reasons to stick to Windows as long as the general situation (that apps are primarily developed for Windows) doesn't change.

Also notice that I didn't went into detail about CSS vs. OSS... because people don't care about that. They just want to *use* *applications* which *get a job done*.

Linux is good for servers because there are a lot of good server applications, and it's secure and reliable, but on the desktop almost no apps pose a threat to Windows' dominance.
However, Windows is also quickly gaining ground on servers... it's becoming increasingly reliable and secure while offering the possibility to run any apps (commercial or OSS ones).
Tough times ahead...

This is written from the viewpoint of a (pragmatic) ex-Linux enthusiast btw. I still use both systems, but currently I have to use Windows 100% of the time on desktops and 50% of the time on servers. I recommend everyone to use Linux *if they can* (yes you really should try it), but there are a lot of cases in which you simply can't.
There are also a lot of possible situations where you have to jump between multiple OSes in order to get your job done in the best way possible (or use multiple ones at the same time via virtualization).
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 29 2009 14:30 GMT
#30
On April 29 2009 21:22 distant_voice wrote:
off topic: currently when you run Starcraft in Wine, there's a noticable delay when using the mouse. I thought I could circumvent that when I installed Starcraft inside a virtual machine using Virtualbox, but the delay there is the same. Is that ever going to go away or is there no way to fix it?

Its a mouse driver issue, IIRC. What distro are you using?
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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 14:49:45
April 29 2009 14:40 GMT
#31
On April 29 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
In Windows, everything is seamlessly integrated. That's a huge, HUGE bonus. There is no such thing as different look+feel for the most part. And if you know Apple, if you have used OSX or an iPhone, you'll realize what look+feel really means. It's not just something irrelevant. It makes the difference between people completely enjoying to use a program, merely using it because they have to, or totally hating to use it (so they'll ditch it and move on to a "better" one ASAP).

And in case you didn't know, most people really do prefer and want beautiful and usable desktops. In any forum, the screenshot thread is probably one of the most active and most-viewed threads, even in Linux forums people are proud to show off with their desktops.
Why is MacOS gaining ground much more quickly than Linux, despite having way more security issues, and pretty much no advantage in applications? Simple: much better look+feel. People love Apple's designs for almost everything, and people hate ugly Linux apps/desktops.

Except this is laziness. Look and feel is more freely changed in Linux than in any other operating system (just look at all the huge variation between desktop environments). It just generally takes a little more work to do.

On April 29 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Windows is not that big because it's totally superior or something, it's big because most applications are only written for Windows. If you need any such application, you're tied to it. And this has nothing to do with "being too lazy" or even "being stupid and walking into that trap"... because sometimes there are simply no equivalents, so you HAVE to use it because otherwise you can't get done what you want to do.

The world isn't perfect. Some Windows-only programs already turned into an "industry standard". Programs like Photoshop, 3D Studio Max, Premiere, or other similarly big and widely used tools. You can find great job offers if you're good at any such program. You could also try to come along and say "Yeah fine but hey I'm good with Blender or Gimp! Hire me!" ... well guess what, it doesn't matter... you won't get a job for that, you won't find certificates or courses using that, and you'll realize that if you had learned Photoshop or 3D Studio Max instead you'd be better off in a lot of ways. Industry standard pretty much means standard, whether it's a real standard or not.

I know that this sucks, and I would really like things to change, but to be honest I think it won't ever happen (I did think differently in the past). Things are pretty much set into stone and not ever going to move.
Always remember the real reason why things are like they are: people don't want to use computers, or operating systems. People want to use applications, and they want to use the best and easiest ones, no matter if they cost a small fortune, are totally unfree or incompatible with other software.

Linux simply has no equivalents in some areas. As a Linux advocate you'll probably try and link to things like OpenXchange, OpenOffice, Gimp etc... and try to convince everyone else that these are not only completely equivalent and compatible but maybe even superior. But the problem is all of these have one or more significant weaknesses compared to the "industry standard" programs, so no matter how hard you try, people are still only going to use the one program which will get their job done in the fastest and easiest way possible. And most Linux advocates haven't actually tried all the programs they want to recommend, they just Google around and see "oh nice there's this Exchange replacement which is totally free, fuck Exchange who needs that now"... but in reality it's not gonna compare.

Of course some apps are theoretically sufficient for many people, for example OpenOffice or Gimp, but most people seem to prefer the look+feel of e.g Photoshop (compared to Gimp). So what do you think they will use? Gimp, because it's free as in speech and beer? Nope... they'll take better look+feel over "freedom" in an instant and are even willing to pay for it at a premium (c.f. pretty much anything Apple produces).

Plus, everyone uses a different subset of features in a program, so programs which can do almost anything (and offer multiple ways to do a certain task) have yet another advantage over programs which can't do everything but are theoretically "sufficient for everyone".

I agree with you on this, but how is this still not laziness and stubbornness? Maybe not of individuals, but industries as a whole being resistant to growth and change.

Admittedly, its sort of an issue of how much one values his/her time. Someone who makes $100 an hour isn't going to want to learn their way through Linux because the opportunity cost of doing it is greater than the cost of just paying someone to fix it for him/her. I do it because I'm a college student, and my time is cheap.

On April 29 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Another problem which makes Windows unlikely to go away (or Linux to replace it on the desktop) is that most top-notch free software applications (Firefix, OpenOffice, Pidgin, Gimp, Apache, PHP, Python, and many more...) are ALSO available on Windows.

So in a way, Windows users are actually very smart. They pay a little bit to gain access to *everything*, while Linux users always have to make compromises and give up on features/games/etc. all in the name of "freedom"/ethics.
Of course, this is not because Linux sucks or Windows is inherently superior, it's just the result of the whole world developing mostly for Windows, and doing so for decades.

ecades* makes it sound a lot longer than it is. Computers haven't been around long enough that things ought not to be set in stone this early in their existence.

All in all, IMO you have a rather grim outlook of things. I agree with your analysis of the present, but I have faith in the development of the future. Even if Linux doesn't break into the mainstream soon, there are significant areas of use that its seeing that might help that in the future (e.g. Linux is seeing great use as an operating system among research scientists).
Moderator
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
April 29 2009 15:03 GMT
#32
oh come on guys, not a religious war of Linux vs Windows. Both are reasonably good OS's and they have their pros and cons. We are talking about programming environment. I am not saying linux SUCKS or something, i'm just saying developing on Windows seems to be easier because of all the nice tools out there. When you are on a project and need to write code under a lot of stress and time constraint, the last thing you want to worry about is how you IDE looks, etc.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
April 29 2009 15:10 GMT
#33
@deadbeef: Really nice writeup. What I don't get is how can you say that Windows desktop looks better than Linux... With the release of KDE 4.x your Linux looks way better than Vista right off the bat + you have a shitton of possibilities to customize it and compiz owns Aero...
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 15:38:03
April 29 2009 15:33 GMT
#34
To be honest Deadbeef, I think you completely missed the whooole point. The argument was here and you are talking about something else that is miles away. 3 key points:

1) You are talking about the whole issue too locally, you need to look at it at a broader global perspective. You are thinking about the high end users, workers and customers. You need to think about the whole production workflow. It is not only the end user who are being inefficient using proprietary software only because he couldn't get job otherwise. You need to look at the next step in the ladder. Why is his boss being inefficient using proprietary software and only hiring people who use it in the first place? Because his end product needs to be compatible with his client? But that is exactly the advantage of linux, what you produce on it is compatible with everything else.

The reason why is still ignorance and laziness, I've experienced that first hand and saw it many times with my own eyes. Many companies already increased their profits changing their whole workflow to free softwares. Why many others still didn't? From my experience: mostly ignorance, secondly laziness from some people inside who doesn't want to move their arse even if it would make them more money in the long run.

They're human beings as well. And most human beings will prioritize the shortest term profit with the least possible amount of work. No matter on what part of the food chain they are.

2) You missed the point completely about the quality of open software. It has nothing to do with googling it and finding stuff that you never used. I work everyday with code:blocks, blender, inkscape and gimp. I know them well enough to the point that I touched the source code of the first two a few times to patch it for my needs. I work with them and make money with them. I know some of these from the inside out.

It's jaw dropping to me when I read on this thread people saying "Visual Studio is a beast and code:blocks wasn't good enough". One is a proprietary software with at most a dozen of developers updating it once every couple of years on market demands and the other is an open source application that has hundreds of active developers updating it every day. Which one is is better?

That is pure ignorance. This could be a valid argument a couple of years ago. But today, in almost the middle of 2009 we grew to a point where there are a bunch of open source software that are simply superior. You guys should really take a better look at the open source alternatives... you're missing on a lot.

3) When you said that windows will not go away because everything from linux works on windows. You just missed the point by liiiight years away. You got it all completely inverted. That reason you pointed is exactly the reason why, one day, open source will win. That is the reason why proprietary software are doomed to extinction. Every time you use gimp or blender on windows. That is a HUGE victory for linux. You are untying your chains you are becoming free. Soon you'll be able to move to linux and say "hey, I don't miss anything!". That's the whole point!

Look at the broader picture. Think about the long term for once instead of the short term as everyone does as usual.
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
0xDEADBEEF
Profile Joined September 2007
Germany1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 16:00:01
April 29 2009 15:58 GMT
#35
@Manit0u and Yango:
I don't call it laziness or stubbornness because these people NEED the respective app to get their stuff done, and if that app only works on Windows then they're not going to use Linux.
Also, I wouldn't call it lazy if someone is e.g. a Photoshop expert, then along comes a Linux advocate and insults him by saying "lol you lazy retard, get your ass over to Gimp and start using that, you'll be free!". I would say it's common sense that that person sticks to Photoshop for like ever if that's how he earns his money. You know, Linux advocates sometimes talk as if it were a matter of seconds/hours/days to change/adapt their complete workflow to new apps on a new platform, but when looking at such huge, complex apps, then it's a change that could take several years to happen, and people aren't going to invest that time to re-learn what they already can do.

So in a way, Linux came too late. Most significant apps were already in place for Windows, and developers have few reasons to port their app for 1% of the market.

Linux is great in many areas... except the desktop. Which just happens to be the most public-visible and interesting one. Linux already IS a complete success in the server and embedded realm, and in certain special (scientific) areas. But I really doubt it's going to get big as a mainstream desktop system. Somehow, the openness and tons of developers only leads to fragmentation, and fragmentation leads to no clear usability directions, and that means death on the desktop.

And no I don't think KDE 4.x looks that great, but it's getting there, slowly. In any case, you still have the problem that apps look and feel different because you're probably not only using KDE apps but also some GTK/Gnome apps, and although the "look" issue is mostly fixed these days (i.e. your KDE theme will be applied to GTK apps easily and almost un-noticeably) the app still feels different, doesn't offer all KDE features, isn't as well-integrated into KDE (simple example: different "save file" dialogs) and so on...

About Compiz... well yeah it has more features, but if you use most of these features then your desktop is really irritating and extreme. Best to have just a few subtle effects on, and then it's not much different from Aero.
A lot of people have stability problems with Compiz though, I'd say that's the main disadvantage.
KDE, for example, integrated 3D effects into the KWin window manager so it doesn't have to use Compiz at all, and that's probably a good choice.
But those 3D effects are only one part of "look+feel"... in most other parts Linux doesn't look so bright in comparison.




I'll read VIB's post later...
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 16:11:27
April 29 2009 16:08 GMT
#36

It's jaw dropping to me when I read on this thread people saying "Visual Studio is a beast and code:blocks wasn't good enough". One is a proprietary software with at most a dozen of developers updating it once every couple of years on market demands and the other is an open source application that has hundreds of active developers updating it every day. Which one is is better?


Give me a break, name one IDE that has all of VS features and framework integration with .NET that's free and open source? You could argue there are a lot of alternatives in Java (Eclipse, Netbeans), but do they come close to what VS is? There's a reason a lot of ppl use VS, and it's not vendor lock up, it's choice and productivity. The only Java IDE that does come close to VS is Intellij IDEA and guess what, it's not free...

Disclaimer: I'm a linux user -.-;; but come on, you have to take a look at reality, especially at software development tools in the corporate world.
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
April 29 2009 16:16 GMT
#37
Come on you don't need all the Compiz crap to run Linux. Just have it simple and stable. Once you start playing with Compiz there's no end, and come on, it's just a toy that doesn't add any value.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
April 29 2009 16:31 GMT
#38
On April 30 2009 01:16 FreeZEternal wrote:
Come on you don't need all the Compiz crap to run Linux. Just have it simple and stable. Once you start playing with Compiz there's no end, and come on, it's just a toy that doesn't add any value.


I was merely pointing out how void the 'Windows looks better' argument is. I'm not using Compiz features myself, as I don't really like all this fancy 3D effects and stuff, but some people do. Right now, you can't really say that Windows desktop looks better than Linux.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
April 29 2009 16:32 GMT
#39
Except this is laziness.
Lazy or not doing work that doesn't need to be done. Take your pick.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
April 29 2009 16:39 GMT
#40
On April 30 2009 01:31 Manit0u wrote:
I was merely pointing out how void the 'Windows looks better' argument is. I'm not using Compiz features myself, as I don't really like all this fancy 3D effects and stuff, but some people do. Right now, you can't really say that Windows desktop looks better than Linux.


Of course, i'm just saying Compiz is not a required feature.
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 17:03:36
April 29 2009 17:02 GMT
#41
On April 30 2009 01:08 FreeZEternal wrote:
Show nested quote +

It's jaw dropping to me when I read on this thread people saying "Visual Studio is a beast and code:blocks wasn't good enough". One is a proprietary software with at most a dozen of developers updating it once every couple of years on market demands and the other is an open source application that has hundreds of active developers updating it every day. Which one is is better?
Give me a break, name one IDE that has all of VS features and framework integration with .NET that's free and open source?
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, so pardon me if I'm mistaken. But you do know that .net integration is simply a matter of telling your compiler where the libs and includes from the sdk are so it can see it's structure and do w/e with it. Which is something that any of the dozens of compilers around can do, you know that right? Please correct me if I didn't understand your question. As for which one has more 'features' I already told you that.

On April 30 2009 01:32 L wrote:
Show nested quote +
Except this is laziness.
Lazy or not doing work that doesn't need to be done. Take your pick.
That's where you're missing an important detail. While it's work that doesn't need to be done, it's work that could be done to increase your efficiency. On the long run, you'd have more profit. Most people tho, do think like you "why would I move my ass if it's more comfortable to be inefficient?". At the end of the day, you do are being inefficient. But, like I said before. Most humans being go for the "the shortest term profit for the lower amount of work", regardless if they're an end user playing games or the head of a large corporation. And that's open source software takes so slow to overcome commercial competitors.
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 17:55:46
April 29 2009 17:55 GMT
#42
it's work that could be done to increase your efficiency.
Well, not if windows provides everything I need. If windows is a complete solution for me as an end user, then spending time looking at alternatives is lost time and wasted energy. Setting up a system and learning how to do so in order to make a first hand comparison, again, is wasted time and lost energy if I don't actually get something I need out of it. It has nothing to do with efficiency on a per user basis, and it will never have anything to do with efficiency on a per user basis.

The net gain from open source software is the collective efficiency gain when everyone switches to it. The fact that most people don't isn't out of laziness, its that they simply have no reason to switch. The people who need to invest the least into the switch are the ones that have done it, and are the ones pushing for others to do it because a larger user base means more free code for them.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
April 29 2009 18:29 GMT
#43
On April 30 2009 02:55 L wrote:
Show nested quote +
it's work that could be done to increase your efficiency.
Well, not if windows provides everything I need. If windows is a complete solution for me as an end user, then spending time looking at alternatives is lost time and wasted energy.
[...]
The net gain from open source software is the collective efficiency gain when everyone switches to it.
Well if you do understand the collective efficiency gain. Don't you think it would be smarter to contribute to the collective as an individual who is part of it? Even if it's in the long run?

Also, everything you need is a little bit relative. Food and water is everything you need in life, but it could be better. Windows might provide everything you 'need', but it could be better, it could be more efficient. There is no limit to 'efficiency', it always could be better. You could say you don't care, but you can't say it wouldn't be more efficient if you did care. What if whatever is it that you use on windows had hundreds of developers updating it daily instead of dozens updating it only once a couple of years when the market demands it? Doesn't that sound more efficient to any end user?
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
0xDEADBEEF
Profile Joined September 2007
Germany1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 20:49:14
April 29 2009 20:39 GMT
#44
On April 30 2009 00:33 VIB wrote:
1) But that is exactly the advantage of linux, what you produce on it is compatible with everything else.


First, that's an advantage many don't need. What's important for most is how they produce it (how fast and convenient), but not in which format, because they have the app to read it anyway.

Second, the people who *do* care about the format can relax in many cases: open standards are being used more and more even in proprietary programs.

Third, as an example, what good is encoding your stuff in Ogg when you can't play it on many devices. This happens a lot in the IT world: the best thing is often not the best choice. In this case, the theoretically most compatible choice (Ogg) is the least compatible choice in practice because almost no manufacturer implements support for it, so MP3 is "the" standard even though it's not a completely open standard.

The reason why is still ignorance and laziness, I've experienced that first hand and saw it many times with my own eyes. Many companies already increased their profits changing their whole workflow to free softwares. Why many others still didn't? From my experience: mostly ignorance, secondly laziness from some people inside who doesn't want to move their arse even if it would make them more money in the long run.


There certainly are a lot of users who simply don't know anything else than Windows, are too lazy to try out something different, and thus may be using what's worse for their job.
But I'm more concerned about people who have tried out Linux but now use Win or OSX on purpose, and about their reasoning.

2) You missed the point completely about the quality of open software. It has nothing to do with googling it and finding stuff that you never used. I work everyday with code:blocks, blender, inkscape and gimp. I know them well enough to the point that I touched the source code of the first two a few times to patch it for my needs. I work with them and make money with them. I know some of these from the inside out.

It's jaw dropping to me when I read on this thread people saying "Visual Studio is a beast and code:blocks wasn't good enough". One is a proprietary software with at most a dozen of developers updating it once every couple of years on market demands and the other is an open source application that has hundreds of active developers updating it every day. Which one is is better?


That has nothing to do with what is better.
And I've never really used VS and Code:Blocks, so I can't comment on that, but I do know that VS is the favorite IDE of many programmers, many famous ones included.
Since I only write smaller things and scripts, a good text editor is more than enough for me, and an IDE would only add in more needless complexity. I like Eclipse though.

3) When you said that windows will not go away because everything from linux works on windows. You just missed the point by liiiight years away. You got it all completely inverted. That reason you pointed is exactly the reason why, one day, open source will win. That is the reason why proprietary software are doomed to extinction. Every time you use gimp or blender on windows. That is a HUGE victory for linux. You are untying your chains you are becoming free. Soon you'll be able to move to linux and say "hey, I don't miss anything!". That's the whole point!

Look at the broader picture. Think about the long term for once instead of the short term as everyone does as usual.


No, that just means Open Source gains ground (which is good of course), but not Linux...
Ironically, Windows is the #1 platform for not only CSS but OSS as well. Some very high quality OSS apps (e.g. the Miranda IM program) are only available on Windows, most other high quality OSS apps are cross-platform including Windows. So you can't go wrong, and you have access to everything with Windows.

In some older thread, I have already written an opinion about how the Linuxland developers hurt Linux themselves: by making all their good stuff available on Windows as well, they further reduce the incentive for people to switch away from Windows. And most people have almost no incentive at all to do so in the first place.

And CSS doomed to extinction? Never.
In the future, more OSS apps will be available and used, but CSS will never go away... it'll be a "together", not "either or". And Windows will remain the platform of choice.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 29 2009 23:51 GMT
#45
On April 30 2009 05:39 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
And CSS doomed to extinction? Never.
In the future, more OSS apps will be available and used, but CSS will never go away... it'll be a "together", not "either or". And Windows will remain the platform of choice.

IMO its MUCH to early in the lifetime of the computer for us to be saying that things will "never" go away. We've only had them for less than 40 years, and much more can change. "Never" is a strong term.
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