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Software Livre

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Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17743 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-28 19:40:15
April 28 2009 16:45 GMT
#1
I've read a very interesting article in the Linux Magazine the other day and I thought I'd share it with you as it might lead to quite a discussion.


Would maddog use Windows, if it would be free software?


by Jon "maddog" Hall

      Recently, I took part in a meeting for 4Linux company from Sao Paulo in Brasil. One of its parts were questions from audience. There was a lot of them and unfortunately, because of the time restrictions, I couldn't answer them all. However, after the meeting was closed, 4Linux director, Marcelo Marques, has sent me a question asked by a young student - Lucas Schenkel Schieferdecker - and asked about my comments. I've concluded that it was interesting enough, for me to write an article about it this month.
      The question was: "Would you use Windows, if it were Software Livre (free software)?".
      As a matter of priority, I have to explain what do I mean, when I say Software Livre. In this case, it's something different than we usually mean when we're using the term open software. For many years I've been using open source programs under the native versions of BSD Unix and other operating systems, where software distributors are not obliged to release the source code. Usually, this programs were very good, but sooner or later, I needed their source, to fix some problem or to make slight modifications, and unfortunately, I didn't have such an option.
      If I were to even think about using Windows software, my first term would be, for this software to be really "free" (free, as in the word freedom). Its source code readily available, and its licence not limiting me in any way as to the ways of using it. I think, that such freedom is found in GPL. Some say, that GPL is more restrictive than BSD, but Lucas' question was about the terms, Windows would have to comply to, for me to start using it. My basic criteria then, is: Windows would have to be "free software" under the GPL licence, and not just "open software".
      I have nothing against paying for software. In my life, I have bought a lot of programs, cheaper and more expensive ones. Because of my education (and my nature) I've never bought many of them, as I was able to write down or modify software, that I needed at the time, myself, and operating systems like Unix or GNU/Linux, provided me with necessary tools. I think, that software developers have the right to decide, what do they do with it, so if they want to sell it as a product, and their creation fulfills my needs and seems worth its price, I will certainly pay for it. Unfortunately, quite often, very restrictive licences are lowering the products worth to zero, and because I'm for following the licence to the letter, I can't use their programs.
      If I would be using Windows, would depend majorly on its worth. The fact is, however, that Microsoft Windows is worth very little, as majorly it's just an operating system; it doesn't contain any compilators or any really useful programs. Many products, that user gets free of charge when buying new computer, is just creators way to force him to buy costly upgrades/extensions. They give us a shaver, and wait until we buy the blades. When we finally buy the rest of the programs, that will make our system worth anything (for example Microsoft Office, Adobe Photoshop or software for multimedia development), it may occur to us, that our expenses have reached hundreds or even thousands of dollars per computer. Assuming, that some of those programs are also Software Livre, I wouldn't mind paying for them, under the condition, that I could all by myself upgrade, extend and even copy them temporarily on another machine without triggering anti-piracy alarms.
      GNU/Linux meanwhile, provides me with all the tools I need at work, every day some new show up. So, my next term would be for most - if not all - software working under Windows (especially those, that I need), to also be Software Livre.
      Third term is more of a personal thing: I like to have several user interface options. I have nothing against learning how to use new interface or familiarising with command line program, if it's gonna help me in my work. Many people avoid the command line, preferring the graphical interface in the style of Microsoft Windows, however, I'm not one of them. For me to think about using Microsoft products, they would need to have rich, fully functional and system integrated command line interface.
      Last, important in my eyes element is quality. I was once working for a software development company, so I know how hard it is to create a good quality product, that would meet the expectations of hundreds of millions of customers. I also understand problems associated with analysing, testing and distributing actualizations, however, I like to decide myslef, when and which patches to install. It is also mostly available only in open source code.
      Would I use Microsoft Windows if it would be Software Livre then? Perhaps, in the past, but this times have already gone. I have everything I need in readily available Software Livre products, so Microsoft would have to do something really spectacular, for me to switch to it.


Sorry for my bad english. I tried to translate as accurately as my lowly language skills allow.

So, what do you guys (and girls) think?
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 28 2009 16:58 GMT
#2
I think I agree with him on pretty much every count (but then again, seeing as I've been running Linux exclusively for about the past 6 months now, thats probably not surprising).
Moderator
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
April 28 2009 17:22 GMT
#3
We'll, he is a programmer tho. From the point of view of a software developer, comparing Linux to Windows is like comparing heaven to hell (and you'd even have to pay to go to hell).
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
April 28 2009 17:23 GMT
#4
weird, i like developing in windows better than in any Linux env.
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
April 28 2009 17:29 GMT
#5
On April 29 2009 02:23 FreeZEternal wrote:
weird, i like developing in windows better than in any Linux env.
My older brother likes driving his old junk from 1970 better than any other car :p
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-28 17:35:13
April 28 2009 17:33 GMT
#6
why is Windows a bad env for software dev? Don't get me wrong I do use Linux at home but I just think a lot of ppl are jumping to the Linux bandwagon
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
April 28 2009 17:55 GMT
#7
On April 29 2009 02:33 FreeZEternal wrote:
why is Windows a bad env for software dev? Don't get me wrong I do use Linux at home but I just think a lot of ppl are jumping to the Linux bandwagon
Because.. it is open source...? And you can change anything you want to fit your specific needs? I made a small patch to my IDE so I could use it see my 3d modeler's API, and patched the 3d modeler so it's native text editor fits the scripting workflow I was used to. Those would either be impossible using windows and windows programs or would take millions of years more than the couple of hours that took me to do all of these. Now I have much more efficient working environment simply because the software and OS I am using are open source. This should be pretty obvious to be honest :p
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
April 28 2009 18:53 GMT
#8
Im such a windows whore.. One of these days though!
I agree with everything. Especially the part about them filling the computer with trials and whatnot
indecision
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Germany818 Posts
April 28 2009 18:58 GMT
#9
I don't know, I've found Visual Studio so much superior to Linux especially when it comes to debugging. What are you guys using to program / debug C,C++,Fortran?

Also: I kinda like Microsoft Office, plus it's used everywhere and you won't have to worry about compatibility.

I could probably handle being on a Linux machine, but I'd miss some stuff.
SoulMarine
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States586 Posts
April 28 2009 19:29 GMT
#10
tl, dr ..

I'm into gaming, not modding, so I'm into PC, and linux has no particular highlights (imo).

I'd live, though.

Now mac, what are we going to do with you ..
베이비 폭스 WeMade 파이팅! ~ WeMade 팬 ~ BaBy 팬 ~ щ(゚Д゚щ) Gee Gee Gee Gee BaBy BaBy BaBy ♫♫
FreeZEternal
Profile Joined January 2003
Korea (South)3396 Posts
April 28 2009 19:59 GMT
#11
Dunno those are some extraordinary circumstances. I have never needed to patch my IDE nor play with it's source code. Anways, Visual Studio is a beast if you are in a .NET environment.
b3h47pte
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States1317 Posts
April 28 2009 20:15 GMT
#12
On April 29 2009 02:33 FreeZEternal wrote:
why is Windows a bad env for software dev? Don't get me wrong I do use Linux at home but I just think a lot of ppl are jumping to the Linux bandwagon


I love Visual Studios. Not a fan of the linux stuff, tried to use Code::Blocks before, just wasn't worth the effort. Not saying programming on Linux is bad, i've just never taken the time to try and besides , being a game programmer, programming on linux offers me nothing.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-28 20:36:42
April 28 2009 20:20 GMT
#13
On April 29 2009 03:58 indecision wrote:
I don't know, I've found Visual Studio so much superior to Linux especially when it comes to debugging. What are you guys using to program / debug C,C++,Fortran?

I find that most stuff I work with is either small enough that a text editor is better for being lightweight (e.g. classwork), or large enough that using an IDE would be cumbersome (open source projects). As far as debugging goes, GDB works just fine for most of what I need to work with.

On April 29 2009 03:58 indecision wrote:
Also: I kinda like Microsoft Office, plus it's used everywhere and you won't have to worry about compatibility.

It takes a bit of getting used to, but OpenOffice's interface is fairly intuitive for someone used to Microsoft Office.

Also, any academic writer in a scientific/mathematical field should know LaTeX.
Moderator
b3h47pte
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States1317 Posts
April 28 2009 20:23 GMT
#14
I despise OpenOffice. It runs so slowly...
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
April 28 2009 20:49 GMT
#15

Would I use Microsoft Windows if it would be Software Livre then? Perhaps, in the past, but this times have already gone. I have everything I need in readily available Software Livre products, so Microsoft would have to do something really spectacular, for me to switch to it.


This is the exact reason I use windows and have absolutely nothing to gain from a switch
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17743 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 11:08:22
April 29 2009 10:52 GMT
#16
On April 29 2009 05:23 b3h47pte wrote:
I despise OpenOffice. It runs so slowly...


Perhaps. But it has much better word editor, only worse calc than mso (and I never really used excel).

Also a question for you guys, because I've never really been into this stuff: Why all the games are released for DirectX now, and not OpenGL? If I remember correctly, OpenGL was better back in the days (Q3 Arena anyone?).

Edit:
Okay, I've found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D
But could someone explain this to me briefly? (I'm really no good when it comes to graphics and how API's communicate with hardware etc.)
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
April 29 2009 11:24 GMT
#17
There just isn't really any advantage to using linux if you don't know programming.

If you do know programming, then yeah I could see you wanting to be able to rewrite your OS and make tweaks, etc.

Still, seems like a trivial advantage
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15365 Posts
April 29 2009 11:32 GMT
#18
On April 29 2009 20:24 -orb- wrote:
There just isn't really any advantage to using linux if you don't know programming.

If you do know programming, then yeah I could see you wanting to be able to rewrite your OS and make tweaks, etc.

Still, seems like a trivial advantage

Well that is just wrong. The convenience and ease of modern linux systems is appealing to many people who have no programming or technical background at all.

My sis for example would never go back to Windows I bet because she wants her computer to just work for her daily tasks.

Granted, for programmers, Linux is especially interesting.

Btw shouldn't it be Software Libre?
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-29 11:55:09
April 29 2009 11:54 GMT
#19
On April 29 2009 19:52 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2009 05:23 b3h47pte wrote:
I despise OpenOffice. It runs so slowly...


Perhaps. But it has much better word editor, only worse calc than mso (and I never really used excel).

Also a question for you guys, because I've never really been into this stuff: Why all the games are released for DirectX now, and not OpenGL? If I remember correctly, OpenGL was better back in the days (Q3 Arena anyone?).

Edit:
Okay, I've found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D
But could someone explain this to me briefly? (I'm really no good when it comes to graphics and how API's communicate with hardware etc.)
There are zero technical reasons. Both have the same capabilities. The reason why most games use windows and directx instead of linux and opengl is the same reason why this guy is saying this:
On April 29 2009 03:58 indecision wrote:
Also: I kinda like Microsoft Office, plus it's used everywhere and you won't have to worry about compatibility.
And why this guy is saying this:
On April 29 2009 05:15 b3h47pte wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2009 02:33 FreeZEternal wrote:
why is Windows a bad env for software dev? Don't get me wrong I do use Linux at home but I just think a lot of ppl are jumping to the Linux bandwagon
I love Visual Studios. Not a fan of the linux stuff, tried to use Code::Blocks before, just wasn't worth the effort. Not saying programming on Linux is bad, i've just never taken the time to try and besides , being a game programmer, programming on linux offers me nothing.
The reason is very simple: Monopoly. Proprietary software uses compatibility to create a monopoly. And you guys bite the bait like little mice running blindly into a trap. And as you can read from this thread, most mice actually think "I'm so smart, I found a cheese!".

That has a name, it's called Vendor Lock-in in economics, and wikipedia explains it really well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in
"vendor lock-in, also known as proprietary lock-in, or customer lock-in, makes a customer dependent on a vendor for products and services, unable to use another vendor without substantial switching costs.
[...]
Since the late 1990s[citation needed], the use of free and open source software (FOSS) has been pushed[who?] as a stronger solution. Because FOSS can be modified and distributed by anyone, the availability of functionality cannot tie a user to one distributor. Also, FOSS tends to adhere faithfully to standards[citation needed]. The ineffectiveness of distributor lock-in means there's no incentive for FOSS developers to invent new data formats if usable (royalty-free) standards exist."

It's funny that some people think linux has problems with compatibility? hehe it's the other way around actually. Linux is actually compatible with everything in the planet, it is the proprietary software that is incompatible with anything else other than itself. But since you guys started using proprietary software in the first place, now you're chained to it and now you're incompatible to linux because you're too lazy to be more efficient.
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
April 29 2009 12:01 GMT
#20
Maddog put forth some very solid arguments for open source. Unfortunately the real battle for Windows vs Linux has nothing to do with technical or quality superiority.

Work in vendor distribution for a few months and watch how the fucktards make a science out of how to upsell and leech the poor people who are forced to use Windows.

There are nothing wrong with Window as a product but the way they control the market is disgusting.

As for programming, I like the single framework and consistencies of Windows Development. Visual Studio is imo the best IDE out there, I've being using Linux for counting 4 years now and I can't stand any of the IDEs on there. I just went and use command line and i miss code completion features >.<
Rillanon.au
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