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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
They ran a partner business model that basically tie themselves to this gigantic alliance of technology vendors which privilege them to informations. Linux development have to count on reverse engineering and manufacturer handout to write their drivers. What would happen when a vendor goes out of business? You are fucked because the driver is close sourced and no updates will happen. You can't win versus corporations that had centuries of experiences on how to screw you. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On April 29 2009 21:01 haduken wrote: Are you saying linux IDEs don't have code completation? O.o Hope I misunderstand you, because there are thousands of free IDEs with code completation for both windows and linux and have been for over 10 years.As for programming, I like the single framework and consistencies of Windows Development. Visual Studio is imo the best IDE out there, I've being using Linux for counting 4 years now and I can't stand any of the IDEs on there. I just went and use command line and i miss code completion features >.< Check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments | ||
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distant_voice
Germany2521 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17165 Posts
On April 29 2009 21:22 distant_voice wrote: off topic: currently when you run Starcraft in Wine, there's a noticable delay when using the mouse. I thought I could circumvent that when I installed Starcraft inside a virtual machine using Virtualbox, but the delay there is the same. Is that ever going to go away or is there no way to fix it? Have you tried Cenega? I've heard it can work wonders in this department (although it's not free as I understand it). On April 29 2009 20:32 zatic wrote: Btw shouldn't it be Software Libre? I just used the same form as maddog in his artice. I guess he opted for livre instead of libre because the meeting he was answering the questions at was in Brasil. Hence, portuguese instead of spanish. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On April 29 2009 21:12 VIB wrote: Are you saying linux IDEs don't have code completation? O.o Hope I misunderstand you, because there are thousands of free IDEs with code completation for both windows and linux and have been for over 10 years. Check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments of course, code completion is not exactly new. i was giving a comparison based on my own experience. i still find that programming under linux is better done with just vi and gcc (sorry i'm c/c++ program). I liked code blocks but never got into it, i liked eclipse and netbeans but they both too slow for my needs. there are more out there of course but you can't argue as an IDE, visual studio is pretty good. | ||
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distant_voice
Germany2521 Posts
On April 29 2009 21:34 Manit0u wrote: Have you tried Cenega? I've heard it can work wonders in this department (although it's not free as I understand it). I tried cedega 2 years ago and it didn't really live up to my expectations so I unsubscribed my membership. maybe they improved but by now I bought my version of windows so I don't want to pay another 45€ a year just to get around a reboot. if cedega can do what I want now wine will be able to do it in a couple of months (I hope). my question was: can you get rid of the delay or is the no way around it because of the nature of emulators (or something like that...)? | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
This is another example of close source awesomeness. the community have extended their needs of the original product but the company who made them don't give a shit >.< | ||
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
Third term is more of a personal thing: I like to have several user interface options. I have nothing against learning how to use new interface or familiarising with command line program, if it's gonna help me in my work. Many people avoid the command line, preferring the graphical interface in the style of Microsoft Windows, however, I'm not one of them. For me to think about using Microsoft products, they would need to have rich, fully functional and system integrated command line interface. It's called windows powershell Oo... (and it's free) | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
On April 29 2009 20:54 VIB wrote: And you guys bite the bait like little mice running blindly into a trap. And as you can read from this thread, most mice actually think "I'm so smart, I found a cheese!".  [...] "vendor lock-in, also known as proprietary lock-in, or customer lock-in, makes a customer dependent on a vendor for products and services, unable to use another vendor without substantial switching costs. [...] It's funny that some people think linux has problems with compatibility? hehe it's the other way around actually. Linux is actually compatible with everything in the planet, it is the proprietary software that is incompatible with anything else other than itself. But since you guys started using proprietary software in the first place, now you're chained to it and now you're incompatible to linux because you're too lazy to be more efficient. The last part is completely true. But still you fail to see the real reasons, and most often it's not stupidity or laziness. Windows has 2 key advantages over Linux, and those two are the main reasons why people use it instead of Linux: applications and look+feel+integrity. I'll start with the second. In Windows, everything is seamlessly integrated. That's a huge, HUGE bonus. There is no such thing as different look+feel for the most part. And if you know Apple, if you have used OSX or an iPhone, you'll realize what look+feel really means. It's not just something irrelevant. It makes the difference between people completely enjoying to use a program, merely using it because they have to, or totally hating to use it (so they'll ditch it and move on to a "better" one ASAP). And in case you didn't know, most people really do prefer and want beautiful and usable desktops. In any forum, the screenshot thread is probably one of the most active and most-viewed threads, even in Linux forums people are proud to show off with their desktops. Why is MacOS gaining ground much more quickly than Linux, despite having way more security issues, and pretty much no advantage in applications? Simple: much better look+feel. People love Apple's designs for almost everything, and people hate ugly Linux apps/desktops. Now to the first and most important aspect. Windows is not that big because it's totally superior or something, it's big because most applications are only written for Windows. If you need any such application, you're tied to it. And this has nothing to do with "being too lazy" or even "being stupid and walking into that trap"... because sometimes there are simply no equivalents, so you HAVE to use it because otherwise you can't get done what you want to do. The world isn't perfect. Some Windows-only programs already turned into an "industry standard". Programs like Photoshop, 3D Studio Max, Premiere, or other similarly big and widely used tools. You can find great job offers if you're good at any such program. You could also try to come along and say "Yeah fine but hey I'm good with Blender or Gimp! Hire me!" ... well guess what, it doesn't matter... you won't get a job for that, you won't find certificates or courses using that, and you'll realize that if you had learned Photoshop or 3D Studio Max instead you'd be better off in a lot of ways. Industry standard pretty much means standard, whether it's a real standard or not. I know that this sucks, and I would really like things to change, but to be honest I think it won't ever happen (I did think differently in the past). Things are pretty much set into stone and not ever going to move. Always remember the real reason why things are like they are: people don't want to use computers, or operating systems. People want to use applications, and they want to use the best and easiest ones, no matter if they cost a small fortune, are totally unfree or incompatible with other software. Linux simply has no equivalents in some areas. As a Linux advocate you'll probably try and link to things like OpenXchange, OpenOffice, Gimp etc... and try to convince everyone else that these are not only completely equivalent and compatible but maybe even superior. But the problem is all of these have one or more significant weaknesses compared to the "industry standard" programs, so no matter how hard you try, people are still only going to use the one program which will get their job done in the fastest and easiest way possible. And most Linux advocates haven't actually tried all the programs they want to recommend, they just Google around and see "oh nice there's this Exchange replacement which is totally free, fuck Exchange who needs that now"... but in reality it's not gonna compare. Of course some apps are theoretically sufficient for many people, for example OpenOffice or Gimp, but most people seem to prefer the look+feel of e.g Photoshop (compared to Gimp). So what do you think they will use? Gimp, because it's free as in speech and beer? Nope... they'll take better look+feel over "freedom" in an instant and are even willing to pay for it at a premium (c.f. pretty much anything Apple produces). Plus, everyone uses a different subset of features in a program, so programs which can do almost anything (and offer multiple ways to do a certain task) have yet another advantage over programs which can't do everything but are theoretically "sufficient for everyone". Another problem which makes Windows unlikely to go away (or Linux to replace it on the desktop) is that most top-notch free software applications (Firefix, OpenOffice, Pidgin, Gimp, Apache, PHP, Python, and many more...) are ALSO available on Windows. So in a way, Windows users are actually very smart. They pay a little bit to gain access to *everything*, while Linux users always have to make compromises and give up on features/games/etc. all in the name of "freedom"/ethics. Of course, this is not because Linux sucks or Windows is inherently superior, it's just the result of the whole world developing mostly for Windows, and doing so for decades. Windows clients and at least one Windows server also make a lot of sense in corporate environments because you can *easily* lock down and centrally configure/manage machines via group policies and stuff like that. Plus there's mighty Exchange in combination with Outlook... to which nothing compares at all. And I really do mean nothing. Again: integrity and application advantage. Do you think people will feel more free when they give up on these things and use Open Source software instead? No... quite the opposite. That's one huge problem for Linux advocates - you simply cannot gain new users if you go with the "free" or "ethical" route. People don't care about that - they just care about *getting things done*. I've just read that Andrew S. Tanenbaum, author of Minix, is now trying to make Minix the most secure and technologically advanced OS (kernel) on the planet. I even think he might succeed with that, seeing that Minix has probably the cleanest and most efficient kernel architecture of all operating systems. But no one uses Minix, and I predict no one will ever start using it except very few technically interested people. And why is that? Well, duh... the reason is, of course, APPLICATIONS. Minix has zero, not counting some Unix/GNU ports. In comparison, Linux has quite a surprisingly large amount but nowhere near enough to provide everything that people need. Almost no games too. MacOS also doesn't have everything, it's similar to Linux application-wise. So which system has *everything* (and for each category at least one application which is really insanely good and very usable, unlike - say - video editing apps on Linux)? That's right - Windows. Next time you laugh about Windows users, keep that in mind. Sure there are many really stupid Windows lusers, and many Windows users who could (and should) use something else instead but they just don't know better. But TONS of normal users, IT professionals, developers, admins, etc. etc. also have really good reasons to stick to Windows as long as the general situation (that apps are primarily developed for Windows) doesn't change. Also notice that I didn't went into detail about CSS vs. OSS... because people don't care about that. They just want to *use* *applications* which *get a job done*. Linux is good for servers because there are a lot of good server applications, and it's secure and reliable, but on the desktop almost no apps pose a threat to Windows' dominance. However, Windows is also quickly gaining ground on servers... it's becoming increasingly reliable and secure while offering the possibility to run any apps (commercial or OSS ones). Tough times ahead... This is written from the viewpoint of a (pragmatic) ex-Linux enthusiast btw. I still use both systems, but currently I have to use Windows 100% of the time on desktops and 50% of the time on servers. I recommend everyone to use Linux *if they can* (yes you really should try it), but there are a lot of cases in which you simply can't. There are also a lot of possible situations where you have to jump between multiple OSes in order to get your job done in the best way possible (or use multiple ones at the same time via virtualization). | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 29 2009 21:22 distant_voice wrote: off topic: currently when you run Starcraft in Wine, there's a noticable delay when using the mouse. I thought I could circumvent that when I installed Starcraft inside a virtual machine using Virtualbox, but the delay there is the same. Is that ever going to go away or is there no way to fix it? Its a mouse driver issue, IIRC. What distro are you using? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 29 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote: In Windows, everything is seamlessly integrated. That's a huge, HUGE bonus. There is no such thing as different look+feel for the most part. And if you know Apple, if you have used OSX or an iPhone, you'll realize what look+feel really means. It's not just something irrelevant. It makes the difference between people completely enjoying to use a program, merely using it because they have to, or totally hating to use it (so they'll ditch it and move on to a "better" one ASAP). And in case you didn't know, most people really do prefer and want beautiful and usable desktops. In any forum, the screenshot thread is probably one of the most active and most-viewed threads, even in Linux forums people are proud to show off with their desktops. Why is MacOS gaining ground much more quickly than Linux, despite having way more security issues, and pretty much no advantage in applications? Simple: much better look+feel. People love Apple's designs for almost everything, and people hate ugly Linux apps/desktops. Except this is laziness. Look and feel is more freely changed in Linux than in any other operating system (just look at all the huge variation between desktop environments). It just generally takes a little more work to do. On April 29 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Windows is not that big because it's totally superior or something, it's big because most applications are only written for Windows. If you need any such application, you're tied to it. And this has nothing to do with "being too lazy" or even "being stupid and walking into that trap"... because sometimes there are simply no equivalents, so you HAVE to use it because otherwise you can't get done what you want to do. The world isn't perfect. Some Windows-only programs already turned into an "industry standard". Programs like Photoshop, 3D Studio Max, Premiere, or other similarly big and widely used tools. You can find great job offers if you're good at any such program. You could also try to come along and say "Yeah fine but hey I'm good with Blender or Gimp! Hire me!" ... well guess what, it doesn't matter... you won't get a job for that, you won't find certificates or courses using that, and you'll realize that if you had learned Photoshop or 3D Studio Max instead you'd be better off in a lot of ways. Industry standard pretty much means standard, whether it's a real standard or not. I know that this sucks, and I would really like things to change, but to be honest I think it won't ever happen (I did think differently in the past). Things are pretty much set into stone and not ever going to move. Always remember the real reason why things are like they are: people don't want to use computers, or operating systems. People want to use applications, and they want to use the best and easiest ones, no matter if they cost a small fortune, are totally unfree or incompatible with other software. Linux simply has no equivalents in some areas. As a Linux advocate you'll probably try and link to things like OpenXchange, OpenOffice, Gimp etc... and try to convince everyone else that these are not only completely equivalent and compatible but maybe even superior. But the problem is all of these have one or more significant weaknesses compared to the "industry standard" programs, so no matter how hard you try, people are still only going to use the one program which will get their job done in the fastest and easiest way possible. And most Linux advocates haven't actually tried all the programs they want to recommend, they just Google around and see "oh nice there's this Exchange replacement which is totally free, fuck Exchange who needs that now"... but in reality it's not gonna compare. Of course some apps are theoretically sufficient for many people, for example OpenOffice or Gimp, but most people seem to prefer the look+feel of e.g Photoshop (compared to Gimp). So what do you think they will use? Gimp, because it's free as in speech and beer? Nope... they'll take better look+feel over "freedom" in an instant and are even willing to pay for it at a premium (c.f. pretty much anything Apple produces). Plus, everyone uses a different subset of features in a program, so programs which can do almost anything (and offer multiple ways to do a certain task) have yet another advantage over programs which can't do everything but are theoretically "sufficient for everyone". I agree with you on this, but how is this still not laziness and stubbornness? Maybe not of individuals, but industries as a whole being resistant to growth and change. Admittedly, its sort of an issue of how much one values his/her time. Someone who makes $100 an hour isn't going to want to learn their way through Linux because the opportunity cost of doing it is greater than the cost of just paying someone to fix it for him/her. I do it because I'm a college student, and my time is cheap. On April 29 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Another problem which makes Windows unlikely to go away (or Linux to replace it on the desktop) is that most top-notch free software applications (Firefix, OpenOffice, Pidgin, Gimp, Apache, PHP, Python, and many more...) are ALSO available on Windows. So in a way, Windows users are actually very smart. They pay a little bit to gain access to *everything*, while Linux users always have to make compromises and give up on features/games/etc. all in the name of "freedom"/ethics. Of course, this is not because Linux sucks or Windows is inherently superior, it's just the result of the whole world developing mostly for Windows, and doing so for decades.  ecades* makes it sound a lot longer than it is. Computers haven't been around long enough that things ought not to be set in stone this early in their existence.All in all, IMO you have a rather grim outlook of things. I agree with your analysis of the present, but I have faith in the development of the future. Even if Linux doesn't break into the mainstream soon, there are significant areas of use that its seeing that might help that in the future (e.g. Linux is seeing great use as an operating system among research scientists). | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17165 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
1) You are talking about the whole issue too locally, you need to look at it at a broader global perspective. You are thinking about the high end users, workers and customers. You need to think about the whole production workflow. It is not only the end user who are being inefficient using proprietary software only because he couldn't get job otherwise. You need to look at the next step in the ladder. Why is his boss being inefficient using proprietary software and only hiring people who use it in the first place? Because his end product needs to be compatible with his client? But that is exactly the advantage of linux, what you produce on it is compatible with everything else. The reason why is still ignorance and laziness, I've experienced that first hand and saw it many times with my own eyes. Many companies already increased their profits changing their whole workflow to free softwares. Why many others still didn't? From my experience: mostly ignorance, secondly laziness from some people inside who doesn't want to move their arse even if it would make them more money in the long run. They're human beings as well. And most human beings will prioritize the shortest term profit with the least possible amount of work. No matter on what part of the food chain they are. 2) You missed the point completely about the quality of open software. It has nothing to do with googling it and finding stuff that you never used. I work everyday with code:blocks, blender, inkscape and gimp. I know them well enough to the point that I touched the source code of the first two a few times to patch it for my needs. I work with them and make money with them. I know some of these from the inside out. It's jaw dropping to me when I read on this thread people saying "Visual Studio is a beast and code:blocks wasn't good enough". One is a proprietary software with at most a dozen of developers updating it once every couple of years on market demands and the other is an open source application that has hundreds of active developers updating it every day. Which one is is better? That is pure ignorance. This could be a valid argument a couple of years ago. But today, in almost the middle of 2009 we grew to a point where there are a bunch of open source software that are simply superior. You guys should really take a better look at the open source alternatives... you're missing on a lot. 3) When you said that windows will not go away because everything from linux works on windows. You just missed the point by liiiight years away. You got it all completely inverted. That reason you pointed is exactly the reason why, one day, open source will win. That is the reason why proprietary software are doomed to extinction. Every time you use gimp or blender on windows. That is a HUGE victory for linux. You are untying your chains you are becoming free. Soon you'll be able to move to linux and say "hey, I don't miss anything!". That's the whole point! Look at the broader picture. Think about the long term for once instead of the short term as everyone does as usual. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
I don't call it laziness or stubbornness because these people NEED the respective app to get their stuff done, and if that app only works on Windows then they're not going to use Linux. Also, I wouldn't call it lazy if someone is e.g. a Photoshop expert, then along comes a Linux advocate and insults him by saying "lol you lazy retard, get your ass over to Gimp and start using that, you'll be free!". I would say it's common sense that that person sticks to Photoshop for like ever if that's how he earns his money. You know, Linux advocates sometimes talk as if it were a matter of seconds/hours/days to change/adapt their complete workflow to new apps on a new platform, but when looking at such huge, complex apps, then it's a change that could take several years to happen, and people aren't going to invest that time to re-learn what they already can do. So in a way, Linux came too late. Most significant apps were already in place for Windows, and developers have few reasons to port their app for 1% of the market. Linux is great in many areas... except the desktop. Which just happens to be the most public-visible and interesting one. Linux already IS a complete success in the server and embedded realm, and in certain special (scientific) areas. But I really doubt it's going to get big as a mainstream desktop system. Somehow, the openness and tons of developers only leads to fragmentation, and fragmentation leads to no clear usability directions, and that means death on the desktop. And no I don't think KDE 4.x looks that great, but it's getting there, slowly. In any case, you still have the problem that apps look and feel different because you're probably not only using KDE apps but also some GTK/Gnome apps, and although the "look" issue is mostly fixed these days (i.e. your KDE theme will be applied to GTK apps easily and almost un-noticeably) the app still feels different, doesn't offer all KDE features, isn't as well-integrated into KDE (simple example: different "save file" dialogs) and so on... About Compiz... well yeah it has more features, but if you use most of these features then your desktop is really irritating and extreme. Best to have just a few subtle effects on, and then it's not much different from Aero. A lot of people have stability problems with Compiz though, I'd say that's the main disadvantage. KDE, for example, integrated 3D effects into the KWin window manager so it doesn't have to use Compiz at all, and that's probably a good choice. But those 3D effects are only one part of "look+feel"... in most other parts Linux doesn't look so bright in comparison. I'll read VIB's post later... | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
It's jaw dropping to me when I read on this thread people saying "Visual Studio is a beast and code:blocks wasn't good enough". One is a proprietary software with at most a dozen of developers updating it once every couple of years on market demands and the other is an open source application that has hundreds of active developers updating it every day. Which one is is better? Give me a break, name one IDE that has all of VS features and framework integration with .NET that's free and open source? You could argue there are a lot of alternatives in Java (Eclipse, Netbeans), but do they come close to what VS is? There's a reason a lot of ppl use VS, and it's not vendor lock up, it's choice and productivity. The only Java IDE that does come close to VS is Intellij IDEA and guess what, it's not free... Disclaimer: I'm a linux user -.-;; but come on, you have to take a look at reality, especially at software development tools in the corporate world. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17165 Posts
On April 30 2009 01:16 FreeZEternal wrote: Come on you don't need all the Compiz crap to run Linux. Just have it simple and stable. Once you start playing with Compiz there's no end, and come on, it's just a toy that doesn't add any value. I was merely pointing out how void the 'Windows looks better' argument is. I'm not using Compiz features myself, as I don't really like all this fancy 3D effects and stuff, but some people do. Right now, you can't really say that Windows desktop looks better than Linux. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Except this is laziness. Lazy or not doing work that doesn't need to be done. Take your pick. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
On April 30 2009 01:31 Manit0u wrote: I was merely pointing out how void the 'Windows looks better' argument is. I'm not using Compiz features myself, as I don't really like all this fancy 3D effects and stuff, but some people do. Right now, you can't really say that Windows desktop looks better than Linux. Of course, i'm just saying Compiz is not a required feature. | ||
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