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On January 02 2009 10:26 L wrote:Show nested quote +Comparing the Jews to Nazis is one of the tools of the Palestinian propaganda machine. No, its the direct result of comparing historical realities.
You could at least try to prove that. But you can't. People who try just spew overused rhetoric.
Let us look at some of the main characteristics of the Nazis and show why they don't apply:
-Desire for world domination: no way, if you think that the Jews want to take over the world then your mind is so far gone that I can't do anything for you.
-Superior race: The Israelis do not consider themselves to be a race. Muslims are given equal rights to Jews in Israel, and are able but not forced to join the army. The Nazies murdered Jews in their own country. Israel tries to protect all of their citizens, no matter their ethnicity/religion. All of the actions of the State of Israel have reasons other than feeling superior to Palestinians.
-Setting up industrial death camps: the goal of these is to kill as many people as possible as fast as possible. Israel hates killing Palestinian civilians. You do not believe this, I know. But look at it this way. The country is a rational actor, even when the reasons are stupid. If you do not believe in the humanity of Israelis, I cannot persuade you otherwise. However, you must admit that killing innocents is terrible PR for Israel, and brings them no benefit whatsoever. Also, considering the lengths that they go to in order to prevent casualties, they can hardly be accused of anything like death camps. Why waste money on precision munitions when you want to kill everyone? Israel has the abaility to raze all of Gaza in 5 minutes with artillery. They will never do such a thing.
-Setting up concentration camps: their goal is to destroy a population while taking advantage of their slave labour. Firstly, Israel does not use Palestinian labour in any forced way. Some Pals have jobs in Israel, where they make more money than they would at home. Then there is the idea of slowly killing the population. Why does Israel supply food aid, provide 90 of the electricity (yes, those power shortages were forced by Hamas for propaganda, and not the result of Israeli actions), provide medical care etc. if it wanted to kill them? And who is it that is forcing Palestininans to live in refugee camps? When you have such a camp beside cities, you have to wonder why the general population refuses to integrate them. As for the Palestinian refugees outside of the Palestinian Authority, ie in Arab countries, they are forced to stay in the camps by the host countries who do not want an influx of poor unemployed people.
-Gathering behind a charismatic leader: have you seen the Israeli leadership? Have you heard them speak? Not a single leader can get more than 30% of the popular vote, so coalitions are the norm.
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On January 02 2009 04:10 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote:
Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel. It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
Personal attacks like this are out of line and add nothing to any argument. I thought better of you, ahrara.
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Yes.. clearly the palestinian propaganda machine is at fault here.. not the fact that YOU ARE BOMBING CIVILIANS YOU EVIL BASTARDS
"The UN says at least 25% of the 402 Palestinians killed were civilians; Palestinian medical officials say more than 2,000 people have been injured. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7807124.stm
smart weapons my ass
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On January 02 2009 04:10 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote:
Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel. It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
Ahara, your an asshole, you try and make it sound like your the you know your shit but really your just gobbling whatever bullshit that makes Israel look like a mass murdered and ignore the rest. Where do you get your information? Because obviously its completely biased and I don't have to go to far out on a limb to assume your a racist
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Who wants to guess which side of the conflict has killed more people?
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On January 02 2009 12:45 iloveoil wrote:
Who wants to guess which side of the conflict has killed more people?
Interesting question. The answer is that PLO/Fatah + Hamas + other terrorist organisations have killed the most Palestinians, more than the Israelis. The PLO making getting its people involved in two civil wars (Lebanon and Jordan) in order to gain power got thousands killed and resulted in the Palestinians being hated around the arab world and kicked out of jobs (the Palestinian diapsora had been very prosperous). Also, the constant infighting between factions (remember the Hamas/Fatah war?) is the cause of thousands of fatalities. Moreover, Palestinians are kept under totalitarian rule by their own government. Anyone suspected of collaborating with Israel is shot. No trials here. Rivals for power are killed (for instance take the seven or so different intelligence agencies of Fatah under Arafat messing with any oposition) .
Then you have cases of terrorist organisations killing civilians for propaganda purposes. A good example is the family that was blown up on a beach by mines. They pretended that Israeli warships had gunned the beach (a later enquiry proved that this was definitely not the case).
I do not have exact numbers, but I think it is clear who is responsible for more Palestinian deaths.
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W.e Hamas shoots rockets at Israel's indiscriminately. Israel bombs targets known to have strong ties to hamas =p It's what they get really. Israel is the strongest military force in that region and you attack them it's basically the 7 day war all over again.
Hell you wouldn't think this was evil if it was your country and your area having crude rockets fired at all the time. Hamas was elected to power in Gaza on the platform on death to Israel =p and guess what they do terrorise Israel again, =p. Guess what Israel does punishes them. Just think of it as your country would do the fucking same!
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On January 01 2009 17:35 anotak wrote:
my question is: sure the first video SAYS those are missiles, but the quality is so shitty they could be loading pipes for replacing sewage stuff or something or god knows what... it doesn't really show anything.
This guy got it completely right....the video just says 'Grad missiles being loaded onto Hamas vehicle'.
Now you watch the video again and tell me that those things they are loading are without doubt missiles, in fact it's so beyond doubt you'd be willing to blow up the truck because you know you're right.
This video proves nothing, it's just them blowing up a truck that people were loading things on to. It might be weapons or it might not be, but you can't tell. Surely the people whose words you're least likely to trust are those who are blowing the truck up.
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Comparing the Jews to the Nazis is perfectly applicable for one important reason the Jews use the Holocaust as a method of relinquishing blame from themselves. Just because someone commited genocide to you does not give you the right to do it to someone else. The Israeli state (and I don't care what religion they are this is just a diversion) are ruthless occupiers who are actively attempting to commit genocide to the Palestinian people. They surrounded them with a giant wall then but them off from food and medicine supplies for crying out loud. I have no doubt that if it wasn't for the watching eye of the international community they would simply shoot the lot of them but in the mean time they instead simply strike civilian targets intentionally, block food imports and other necessities of life and then claim their enemy are the terrorists, and that Israel never strikes first and never hits civilian targets. This is taken to be an unquestioned truth by the Israeli population and this allows the government to continue their atrocities however even through the distortion of western media it is obvious that these are little more than myths.
Not a single Israeli was killed by Hamas prior to the attacks, yet apparently that is justification to kill hundreds. What is even worse is the blatant hypocrisy of their claim they never strike civilian targets. The Israelis said that they are acting to protect the legitimate government of Palestine. The legitimate government is Hamas, they were elected in fair elections noone questions that, Israel strikes against government buildings like the health department, the education department and parliament house, are these terrorist targets? Ofcourse not, and the entire pan Arab community is under no illusion as to the true nature of Israeli aggression. Infact the number one reason why Arabs hate America (might be different due to Iraq) was always American support of Israel, this is no different to supporting Chinese suppression of Tibet, only marked by far more two facedness and hypocrisy and also blatant bias in the western media.
Israel are quite stupid in my opinion, they have made the entire Arab population hate them with a passion there are countless millions willing to lay down their life in the defence of the Palestinian people and they will never forget what Israel has done the time will come one day and possibly sooner rather than later that the Arabs will have their revenge.
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On January 02 2009 13:24 IzzyCraft wrote:
W.e Hamas shoots rockets at Israel's indiscriminately. Israel bombs targets known to have strong ties to hamas =p It's what they get really. Israel is the strongest military force in that region and you attack them it's basically the 7 day war all over again.
Hell you wouldn't think this was evil if it was your country and your area having crude rockets fired at all the time. Hamas was elected to power in Gaza on the platform on death to Israel =p and guess what they do terrorise Israel again, =p. Guess what Israel does punishes them. Just think of it as your country would do the fucking same!
If my country was ruthless occupiers I suppose I would support that occupation and missleading labels like 'Terrorists' to justify our atrocities then I would support it, but for outsiders looking in it is obvious who the bad guys really are. Its like having a bully beating a defenseless person with a crowbar, then the defenseless person slaps the bully on the leg. How dare you slap me says the bully, now you will feel my power and continues his ruthless violence.
Palestine has repeatedly asked for a ceasefire but Israel says no. Have have no interest in peace only conquest.
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On January 02 2009 13:36 oYsteR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 17:35 anotak wrote:
my question is: sure the first video SAYS those are missiles, but the quality is so shitty they could be loading pipes for replacing sewage stuff or something or god knows what... it doesn't really show anything. This guy got it completely right....the video just says 'Grad missiles being loaded onto Hamas vehicle'. Now you watch the video again and tell me that those things they are loading are without doubt missiles, in fact it's so beyond doubt you'd be willing to blow up the truck because you know you're right. This video proves nothing, it's just them blowing up a truck that people were loading things on to. It might be weapons or it might not be, but you can't tell. Surely the people whose words you're least likely to trust are those who are blowing the truck up.
Your right those weren't missiles they were simply loading 2x4's...
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Derailing this thread any further will result in swift justice delt out by the IDFKU (Israeli Defense Force Kennigit Unit).
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This thread is deteriorating into a venue for people who have no idea what they are talking about (ie "Not a single Israeli was killed by Hamas prior to the attacks", where have you been for the last 20 years?) to give their opinions about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Please stop
This thread should be about media representation and PR.
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On January 02 2009 14:06 Choros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2009 13:24 IzzyCraft wrote:
W.e Hamas shoots rockets at Israel's indiscriminately. Israel bombs targets known to have strong ties to Hamas =p It's what they get really. Israel is the strongest military force in that region and you attack them it's basically the 7 day war all over again.
Hell you wouldn't think this was evil if it was your country and your area having crude rockets fired at all the time. Hamas was elected to power in Gaza on the platform on death to Israel =p and guess what they do terrorize Israel again, =p. Guess what Israel does punishes them. Just think of it as your country would do the fucking same! If my country was ruthless occupiers I suppose I would support that occupation and misleading labels like 'Terrorists' to justify our atrocities then I would support it, but for outsiders looking in it is obvious who the bad guys really are. It’s like having a bully beating a defenseless person with a crowbar, then the defenseless person slaps the bully on the leg. How dare you slap me says the bully, now you will feel my power and continues his ruthless violence. Palestine has repeatedly asked for a ceasefire but Israel says no. Have no interest in peace only conquest.
How the fuck do you lightly go about discipline a country that is already 3rd world when it attacks you =p I don't think trade embargoes do too much to them=p. I look at it like a midget picking a fight with a giant yeah sure people are like wow giant that's messed up you fucked up the midget but I take a look at it and what I see if the midget starting shit. You can't go through life letting people step on you because you are suppose to supposedly be the bigger man and you can take it a country doesn't work like that.
Good analogy killing people is like slapping a strong guy. And a strong guy with a crow bar is like tactical strikes on Hamas headquarters and other sites. Just because the county is weak does not mean it cannot be held accountable by its actions. So what we treat small weak country like retards now? Oh they are retarded so it's not their fault.
Oh yeah they are missiles just not guided or anything =p there is footage of security cam seeing a building top being blown off by one. The thing is 10 20 missiles don't do much dmg without good guidance or good power the one they fire can barely blow up a 2 story house. They are a poor country what do you expect from them.
It's more like the small guy saw the big guy with a crow bar and decided to yell death threats at him for a long time then starts to throw rocks at him. And then he gets his ass whopped because of it. But that doesn't stop the small guy and so he decided to spit in the big guy's face and shouts slurs while hitting and biting him and then gets his full on ass kicking.
Err it's like if Poland after it being separated from Germany in WWI1 attacks Germany for no other reason then it is Germany then gets taken over by Germany then several years later Germany lets Poland be Poland again and Poland attacks Germany again and same result. Just ignore the Nazi's and it works out just fine. Well maybe not the best but it's hard to get an history like example i mean the term peace in the middle east doesn't come from no where. Israeli gets harassed every like 7 years. And every time Israel kicks the shit out of the harasser it's just now the harasser is so pathetic to begin with it's kinda sad.
Israel does not have the luxury of being the kind type due to it's history it must never look weak else other major players in that area might start up a war with them again not some small strip in which is encircled in Israel's territory.
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To the guy who changed my post, how dare you compare me to the Nazis for wanting to destroy the organizations responsible for constant fire on my family, my friends and me and the slaughtering of so many Israeli civilians in the last 15 years??
The Hamas calls for our demise, and constantly acts upon it to the best of his abilities. Blowing up buses, coffee shops, and for the last 8 years firing tens of thousands of rockets, recently also Grad missiles with 20 Kg explosives.
The one who said "Not a single Israeli was killed by Hamas prior to the attacks.."
Read this list, go through all of it, (this is only from Sept 2000 not including the suicide bombers , and plenty other cold blood murders in the 90s, not to mention the enormous amount of attempts stopped by the IDF and the hundreds of thousands who are terrorized on a daily basis by the rocket attacks.)
Put "Hamas" in the find box and start counting the dead babies, children, women, men, young people and old people. While your at it put "Fatah" in the find box as well and see what they did , they and their leader Abu Mazen are shown as "moderate" through the western media, look what they've actually done in the last 15 years, I haven't heard any of them apologize for ANY of it.
List of victims since September 2000 by date: it's too big for a TL post, I got an error
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism- Obstacle to Peace/Palestinian terror since 2000/Victims of Palestinian Violence and Terrorism sinc.htm
One of countless terror attacks:
Aug 9, 2001 - Giora Balash, 60, of Brazil; Zvika Golombek, 26, of Carmiel; Shoshana Yehudit Greenbaum, 31, of the U.S.; Tehila Maoz, 18, of Jerusalem; Frieda Mendelsohn, 62, of Jerusalem; Michal Raziel, 16, of Jerusalem; Malka Roth, 15, of Jerusalem; Mordechai Schijveschuurder, 43, of Neria; Tzira Schijveschuurder, 41, of Neria; Ra'aya Schijveschuurder, 14, of Neria; Avraham Yitzhak Schijveschuurder, 4, of Neria; Hemda Schijveschuurder, 2, of Neria; Lily Shimashvili, 33, of Jerusalem; Tamara Shimashvili, 8, of Jerusalem; and Yocheved Shoshan, 10, of Jerusalem were killed and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
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On January 02 2009 19:24 Locke. wrote:
To the guy who changed my post, how dare you compare me to the Nazis for wanting to destroy the organizations responsible for constant fire on my family, my friends and me and the slaughtering of so many Israeli civilians in the last 15 years??
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lol, you guys have been constantly bombing the shit out of those poor bastards for like 40 years now.. you should realize by now that traffic accidents in israel takes more lives each day than random rockets fired from the border that apparently miss every time. Remember the holocaust? Why were your people getting killed back then? It was because they had no means to defend themselves, they didnt have an army, the equipment nor the method to stop the nazi... The palestinians today are just as defenceless as your people were back then.
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On January 02 2009 20:29 dinmsab wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2009 19:24 Locke. wrote:
To the guy who changed my post, how dare you compare me to the Nazis for wanting to destroy the organizations responsible for constant fire on my family, my friends and me and the slaughtering of so many Israeli civilians in the last 15 years??
. lol, you guys have been constantly bombing the shit out of those poor bastards for like 40 years now.. you should realize by now that traffic accidents in Israel takes more lives each day than random rockets fired from the border that apparently miss every time. Remember the holocaust? Why were your people getting killed back then? It was because they had no means to defend themselves, they didn't have an army, the equipment nor the method to stop the nazi... The palestinians today are just as defenceless as your people were back then.
That post is just so fucking horrible looking at any kind of history of the region you made me get off my wii and break out my keyboard.
i don't know who compared lock to Nazi's my example was horrible i noticed after i typed it but i kept it in there for no reason and put a small discredit at the end.
If you take the history out of that region it's always been under war due to mostly land claim disputes that goes back thousands of years.
AND FOR THE FUCKING RECORD ISERAL has always used a counter only policy they have never been the one the start anything. (if you exclude the formation of Israel but mostly blame the U.N. for that) Israel has always been the one to hit only when struck first. T_T Gaza has an "army" if you will but the waste most of their shit on missiles yes they are missiles you can easily find footage of that shit crashing and blowing up a house or some random venue.
For fuck sakes if you are gonna compare them to nazi's you have to had a shit load of if statements to that. They are like Nazi's if you count launching missiles at them is like not enough poor Jewish people at the end of WW1 in Germany. God dam the Jewish people in Germany didn't like go around blowing up Germany. Gaza is hardly an Angel state and should not be looked at like it has done no harm.
What do you fucking think the missiles is all part of a conspiracy? Oh wait when Missiles from Gaza kills people that doesn't count. Or when they put missiles launch platforms in high population area on purpose that doesn't count to their fault either. What should Israel do send their troops into Gaza with riot gear it's a fucking country not a district with in Israel anymore.
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On January 02 2009 20:29 dinmsab wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2009 19:24 Locke. wrote:
To the guy who changed my post, how dare you compare me to the Nazis for wanting to destroy the organizations responsible for constant fire on my family, my friends and me and the slaughtering of so many Israeli civilians in the last 15 years??
. lol, you guys have been constantly bombing the shit out of those poor bastards for like 40 years now.. you should realize by now that traffic accidents in israel takes more lives each day than random rockets fired from the border that apparently miss every time. Remember the holocaust? Why were your people getting killed back then? It was because they had no means to defend themselves, they didnt have an army, the equipment nor the method to stop the nazi... The palestinians today are just as defenceless as your people were back then.
Your analogy is terrible. The jews didn't start a fight with the nazis, they were simply targeted due to their ehtnicity. The Palestinians (extremists/terrorist groups) on the other hand want to destroy Israel while Israel wouldn't even touch the palestinians if they didn't attack them. Palestine are the aggressors, they want the land back and they'll keep fighting/bombing Israel until they get it or until they're destroyed. There can be no real peace otherwise (unless they suddenly get some sense, which I doubt). Israel is on the defensive, if they wanted to destroy gaza they would've done it a long time ago.
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Israel has always taken the high rout in never starting a fight, but always ending it. What do you expect the military might of a country to be when the U.S. has always been generous in helping Israel out in supplying weapons etc.
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yeah, sorry about the bad analogy.I was just trying to point out the fact that the Palestinians are a hopeless bunch, Israel could easily bomb the shit out of them daily if they wanted to and the Palestinians couldn't do much about it.
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EPT
