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On January 02 2009 21:02 dinmsab wrote:
yeah, sorry about the bad analogy.I was just trying to point out the fact that the Palestinians are a hopeless bunch, Israel could easily bomb the shit out of them daily if they wanted to and the Palestinians couldn't do much about it.
They're a hopeless bunch, but if they keep attacking Israel, even when it's not very effective, Israel can't just stand idly by and let them put the people under a constant state of terror and insecurity.
They give them a warning, doesn't help, they give them another warning, doesn't help, they retaliate a bit, no good, they retaliate some more, no good either. The palestinians still don't stop, so they have to retaliate even more, there's no other way.
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Belgium8305 Posts
soooo
who wants to talk about media representation and PR strategies concerning this conflict
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AND FOR THE FUCKING RECORD ISERAL has always used a counter only policy they have never been the one the start anything. (if you exclude the formation of Israel but mostly blame the U.N. for that) Israel has always been the one to hit only when struck first
Are you kidding me? You have lost your right to type in caps. It is understandable to be under and misinformed, but don't be so cocky about it.
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On January 03 2009 01:37 vGl-CoW wrote:
soooo
who wants to talk about media representation and PR strategies concerning this conflict
I would like to see video's posted on youtube of a ground assault. It is very selective to say the IDF is not targeting civilians, and then post some video's of a few air assualts. Where are the video's of Jenin?. This is just clever propaganda.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Thanks for killing a thread worth reading vGl-CoW.
Threads where people write more than two sentences are after all bad.
Well, atleast we have the naruto, top ten videos of 2008 and zune's freeze threads, full of lols and hahahahas, which are all devoid of any negative emotions, just as it should be in a perfect world.
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why don't you relax. they were just reiterating everything that'd been talked about in the other gaza thread.
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Belgium8305 Posts
On January 03 2009 01:42 TeCh)PsylO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 01:37 vGl-CoW wrote:
soooo
who wants to talk about media representation and PR strategies concerning this conflict I would like to see video's posted on youtube of a ground assault. It is very selective to say the IDF is not targeting civilians, and then post some video's of a few air assualts. Where are the video's of Jenin?. This is just clever propaganda.
I don't think anyone can disagree with this. As someone already pointed out in this thread, the US used the very same strategy in the Gulf War to demonstrate just how smart their smart bombs were... of course they won't be showing the videos where the smart bombs go dumb and level a few civilian houses.
It's easy to see why the IDF is going for this communication strategy, as probably the main reason why they are catching a lot of flak in the international community is that they are inflicting severe civilian casualties, and nobody likes to see the innocent die. This is an effort to show everyone that they can pick off the Hamas without hurting anyone else, but I don't think anybody who isn't already very pro-Israel would be swayed by this kind of videos.
On January 03 2009 03:55 Hysterisk wrote:
Thanks for killing a thread worth reading vGl-CoW.
Threads where people write more than two sentences are after all bad.
Well, atleast we have the naruto, top ten videos of 2008 and zune's freeze threads, full of lols and hahahahas, which are all devoid of any negative emotions, just as it should be in a perfect world.
We already have a thread discussing the conflict itself (and it sucks). The OP explicitly stated that this thread would be about the PR strategies and media representations surrounding the conflict, and Kennigit warned everybody that further derailment would lead to bans.
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the US used the very same strategy in the Gulf War to demonstrate just how smart their smart bombs were...
We also used "embedded" reporters in Desert Storm, don't report body counts, and minimize images of caskets coming home. Vietnam was broadcast on T.V. every evening and it helped heighten the protest to war. The realities of war are far more significant than ideoligical nonsense and tit for tats about who fired first. A youtube channel obviously is not aimed at Israeli's, but rather critics of there aggression.
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Propaganda war: trusting what we see?
On January 03 2009 14:20 GMT Paul Reynolds, World Affairs Correspondent for the BBC wrote:
Israel has tried to take the initiative in the propaganda war over Gaza but, in one important instance, its version has been seriously challenged.
The incident raises the question of how to interpret video taken from the air.
Israel released video of an air attack on 28 December, which appeared to show rockets being loaded onto a lorry. The truck and those close to it were then destroyed by a missile.
This was clear evidence, the Israelis said, of how accurate their strikes were and how well justified. A special unit it has set up to coordinate its informational plan put the video onto YouTube as part of its effort to use modern means of communications to get Israel's case across.
The YouTube video has a large caption on it saying "Grad missiles being loaded onto the Hamas vehicle." As of Saturday morning UK time, more than 260,000 people had watched it.
Different version
It turned out, however, that a 55-year-old Gaza resident named Ahmed Sanur, or Samur, claimed that the truck was his and that he and members of his family and his workers were moving oxygen cylinders from his workshop.
This workshop had been damaged when a building next door was bombed by the Israelis and he was afraid of looters, he said.
The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem put Mr Sanur's account on its website, together with a photograph of burned out oxygen cylinders.
Mr Sanur said that eight people, one of them his son, had been killed. He subsequently told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz: "These were not Hamas, they were our children... They were not Grad missiles.".
The Israeli response was that the "materiel" was being taken from a site that had stored weapons. The video remains on You Tube.
But the incident shows how an apparently definitive piece of video can turn into something much more doubtful.
It is reminiscent of an event in the Nato war against Serbia over Kosovo in 1999. In that case, a video taken from the air seemed to show a military convoy which was then attacked.
On the ground however it was discovered that the "trucks" were in fact tractors towing cartloads of civilian refugees, many of whom were killed.
Israel effort
The Israeli propaganda effort is being directed to achieve two main aims.
The first is to justify the air attacks. The second is to show that there is no humanitarian calamity in Gaza.
Both these aims are intended to place Israel in a strong position internationally and to enable its diplomacy to act as an umbrella to fend off calls for a ceasefire while the military operation unfolds.
Israel has pursued the first aim by being very active in getting its story across that Hamas is to blame. The sight of Hamas rockets streaking into Israel has been helpful in this respect.
It has also allowed trucks in with food aid and has stressed that it will not let people starve, even if they go short.
Israel appears to think its efforts are working.
One of its spokespeople, who has regularly appeared on the international media, Major Avital Leibovich, said: "Quite a few outlets are very favourable to Israel."
Ban on foreign media
Israel has bolstered its approach by banning foreign correspondents from Gaza, despite a ruling from the Israeli Supreme Court.
The Arab television news channel Al Jazeera is operating there and its reports have been graphic and have affected opinion across the Arab world. The BBC also has its local bureau hard at work.
But the absence of reporters from major organisations has meant, for example, that Mr Samur's story has not been as widely told as it probably would have been, or his account subject to an on-the-spot examination.
Meanwhile Israel has received good coverage of the threats and damage to its own towns and communities.
Whether Israel retains any propaganda initiative is not all certain. Pictures of dead and wounded children have undermined its claim to pinpoint accuracy and the longer this goes on, the greater the potential for world public opinion to swing against it, with diplomatic pressure building for a cessation.
Its presentational problems would be hugely increased if it engaged in a ground operation, which would bring with it more pictures of death and destruction.
Update: several readers have e-mailed to ask whether I believe Hamas. One said I had "bought into" Hamas propaganda. Another that I should have dealt with Hamas' claims: "What's missing speaks volumes about your one-sidedness."
I do not believe anyone's "propaganda." We seek to verify all claims, from whatever source. One of the main claims in Gaza at the moment is the serious situation for the population. Having reported from Gaza many times over the years, I know how crowded parts of it are and how dependent the people are on food aid from the UN. This means they have no other source of supply but equally, if the system is working, they should be getting enough to get by on. The problem is that foreign correspondents cannot get in to establish the exact situation for themselves.
Paul.Reynolds-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk
source
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The Gazan says they were oxygen cylinders. But Israeli's military said the items, whatever they were, were taken from a place that stores weapons. That's the problem with terrorism in that area. The civilian life is intertwined with the violent terrorist activity, it becomes nigh impossible to differentiate the terrorists from the populace sometimes. I think Israel has mitigated this rather well by sending out pamphlets and warnings to civilians in the area before striking. Nobody living in that area is ignorant to the Hamas activities, and so when they live amongst them, they have to expect some collateral damage. The civilians have responsibility, too.
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If I got a letter from the Israeli government saying that my house was going to be bombed tomorrow because there was a terrorist organization in my neighborhood I sure as hell wouldn't load long cylindrical objects onto a truck that day.
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@EmeraldSparks Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Very often, stories are fabricated because no one actually bothers to verify the claims. In the case of this strike it is difficult to tell. The fact that these objects where taken from a place known to store weapons makes me dubious of this new information. But of course it is still possible.
Then I looked at the picture of the cannister
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45342000/jpg/_45342917_gas226.jpg
So, an oxigen cannister takes a direct hit from a missile and looks like that? A little dirty, not even a dent? Yeah right. This reminds me of when there was a claim that Israel had blown up a UN ambulance (which it denied), then produced a picture of a vehicle with a large rust hole in the roof.
The picture is a fake. That doesn't mean that the story is false of course, there is no way of knowing for sure.
EDIT spelling
RE EDIT a common propaganda strategy on the palestinian side is transforming anyone who is killed by Israel into a civilian. It is very easy: all you say is "Israel lies, these were civilians", the media repeats it, and even if they ever make a correction no one notices. Again, I don't know if that is the case here.
EDIT^3
I found the information on the ambulance case. I remembered wrong, it was a Red Cross ambulance during the recent war with Hezbollah. Here is the obvious forgery given as proof to the false claim of Israel targetting the vehicle that was reported all over the place unchallenged:
http://weblog.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/war/ambulance_bullseye.jpg
here's a high quality pic! http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/IMG_1127_1.jpg
Notice that it is the roof of an old rusty vehicle. Anyone who has had anything to do with missiles know that they do A LOT more damage than that.
Here is an explanation of how the media was fooled and fooled itself in this whole ugly yet common affair:
www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/
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On January 01 2009 15:41 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2009 15:37 Underwhelmed wrote:On January 01 2009 15:14 motbob wrote:On January 01 2009 15:07 Underwhelmed wrote:
Apparently, using YouTube is now a strategy of the Israeli government. IMO it shows an openness about disclosure of targeting methods that hasn't ever been seen in warfare. We need to see more of this. If a state-controlled media outlet is your idea of "open". I don't trust the Israeli government (or indeed, any entity) to not hide distasteful things they might do. For all you know, they could be indiscriminately demolishing Palestinian homes with bulldozers, which would never be disclosed that YouTube channel. Edit: Typo SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT. LOGICAL FALLACY DETECTED. POST IGNORED.
By replying you're not ignoring it, and by analyzing its logical fallacy you're definitely not ignoring it but looked deep into it and analyzed its structures. 
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reminds me of call of duty
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Noooo guys please stay on topic this is finally getting somewhere!
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Kaabooooom
Modern warfare is so lame :/
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On January 02 2009 05:40 BG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2009 05:17 sith wrote:On January 02 2009 04:10 ahrara_ wrote:On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote:
Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel. It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane. Eh I imagine he has a lot more at stake in the conflict than we do, it's a lot harder to look at stuff objectively when you're so involved. So yes that post is extremely inflammatory and wrong, but I think you can let it slide. It's like how american's went after 9/11, "kill all the arab's" or whatever. It's wrong to say that but people lose sight of it when stuff is so close to you. How's his post wrong or inflammatory??
Well he's basically advocating the destruction of human beings..which i would define as wrong...but like I said it's a moot point due to his perspective.
I don't know who you hang out with but since when was it ever appropriate to think or say "kill all the arabs"? o_o And how does such an offensive phrase equate with anything Locke has posted?
It's not appropriate, I'm equating his viewpoint to the fever of post 9/11 comments made by some choice Americans. It's not the same comment, but I'm saying these comments were made when people felt threatened in their homes, Locke's comments were made by someone who feels threatened in his own home. I'm not saying he has the same level of it, I was just drawing a similarity.
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The "destruction" of "humanbeings" who are about to kill or at least help to kill civilians is appropriate. Stop judging this war like it was civil war, it's not. Only cause the palestineans lack a well trained and equipped force they are still soldiers and if soldiers die in a war it has nothing to do with "destroying humanbeings". War has been like that forever and ever will be.
I don't care much about Israel and Palestine, imo they should just make peace and stop killing each other. But then it comes to my mind that the ruling powers of Palestine, which are democratically elected which means at least half of the palestineans stand behind whats going on, refuse to make peace with Israel. Next argument would most likely be "but Israel responds to attacks with attacks themselves". You just have to agree that this is stupid. Responding to an attack means defense and thats all what Israel does from my point of view.
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The PR stuff is really interesting. You saw some of this with the Russian-Georgia war where Georgia was able to gain sympathy because they were so much more adept at handling the media. There were high level Georgians on CNN every other hour able to get their point of view across while Russia remained quiet. Opinion polls in America (and other western countries) showed Russia at fault when the real situation was much more complicated. I don't know the effects of this on policy, but politicians are driven by popular consensus.
I don't think this was lost on the Israelis. Since their land invasion of Gaza began yesterday there have been one high level cabinet member after another on American TV repeating the same talking points. This is about the missiles and not removing Hamas, not targeting the civilians, etc.. We'll see how it plays out, but Israel has another huge advantage over the Palestinians.
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EPT
