On December 03 2008 10:31 fusionsdf wrote: hey guess what
you know that conservative minority?
they required the exact same support from the bloc as this coalition does
Hey guess what?
To be a minority government, a party [in this case coalition] requires the most seats in the house of parliament.
Guess which party outnumbers which coalition without the blocs support?
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
how is that relevant at all?
its just like the conservative talking point (canada elected us) vs the liberal talking point (more people voted against you then for you)
whether its coalition or conservative, both parties rely on the bloc to support them on confidence motions. And its not like the bloc needs a big carrot either, since they would rather hold up a coalition government than a conservative government.
I mean if you want to complain about ndp go for it, since they will actually have a hand in government.
On December 02 2008 11:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: what a bunch of fools we have running our country
Don't we have the leaders that we deserve?
no
stephen harper is far and away the smallest evil, but he is not a great prime minister
canadians really don't have a 'good' choice for government. all i can say is that if these fucking retards from the opposition parties force another election after we JUST HAD ONE FOUR WEEKS AGO, I and all the people I know will vote Conservative just to keep those leeches out of power.
On December 03 2008 06:15 a-game wrote: just to be clear, because flaccid said this in another thread, the Bloc will not play a formal role in the government. they won't sit on the government side of the house, they won't hold cabinet positions or any other government positions.
their support will be purely tacit, they've agreed to support all confidence motions for 18 months and will be occasionally consulted but other than that they won't be apart of the coalition.
Again, they have to be part of the coalition, the ndp and the liberals do not have enough seats. They HAVE to sit on the Government side of the house, because they will be part of the GOVERNMENT.
they are not apart of the coalition, they are only agreeing to support the liberal-ndp coalition. it was reported on cbc news that the liberals and the ndp will sit together on the government side of the house, and split the cabinet positions 18 liberal 6 ndp. the bloc won't be apart of the government though.
please stop posting as if you know what you are talking about.
The difference is mostly semantical. Even though the Bloc pledged not to oppose the coalition, it isn't binding. The Bloc will be consulted over everything, or the new government will sink down the drain.
no it wont
if the bloc makes demands that brings down the coalition, or even just makes the coalition look bad, that will lead to a conservative majority next election. The Bloc does not want that for obvious reasons (how well would quebec treat them if they were seen as bringing the conservatives to power?)
This wont lead to quebec seperating
I'm pretty neutral on the coalition, but its harpers own fucking fault for continuously acting like an idiot.
The above post is an example of why the three parties can not afford to let the coalition fail. If it fails, it will lead almost certainly to a conservative majority. The liberals/NDP know that will happen, and arent so suicidal to let the coalition to easily fail.
let's just put some clarifications to bed here. firstly, i specifically saw cbc report that the bloc will remain on the opposition benches, so let's just stop arguing about that one. the only mention of the bloc in the entire coalition agreement
I think this is an overall bad decision because of the main fact that Canadians will not take to this change lightly, we voted them in. Just because the opposition is pissed shouldn't force something like this. They are only hurting themselves with this no confidence motion and will hurt their future chance of getting re-elected.
I personally like Harper, and for someone who doesn't follow every little thing of politics, but I see things getting done.
On December 03 2008 11:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: a-game do you not find this whole scenario disgraceful?
me personally? not really lol
but i'm a closet progressive so that really shouldn't come as a surprise
i think most people just want the government to f*ck off, so i can understand why a lot of people are ticked off about this, even if i personally am of a different opinion.
the only thing i would say is that the peak of an economic crisis is the worst time for this kind of instability, but my own personal view is that leaving the conservatives in power would do even greater harm.
No, they voted to stay a part of Canada. The awesome part of Quebec (non-separatist), decided to stay a part of the country and maintain our national identity. The lame part of Quebec (separatist) voted to stop paying taxes to the fed and announce international independence while continuing to take national transfer payments and use our currency. (ie. move out of your parents house but insist they still pay you an allowance)
It's a good thing the awesome Quebecers voted it down, otherwise what followed would have been an embarrassing international incident as the separatists would claim they had a mandate from the people and the Canadian national government would tell them to stop their nonsense or actually be an independent nation, which they claimed to want but never intended from the beginning.
And now those same assholes that Quebecers already showed they do not ideologically support are pushing their agenda nationally and have become the swing vote in a mishmash coalition government.
It's fucking insanity.
I think Quebec wants to become an independent nation because of people like you. I don't see why you call the part of Quebec that wants to stay as "awesome" and the one that wants to separate as "lame". Its kind of shows a poor understanding as to why Quebec wanted to separate in the first place. I think threatening to become independent is definitely helping the Quebec cause.
Quebec doesn't want to become an independent nation. A small segment of assholes who happen to live there want to and the intelligent part of your province already told you to fuck off.
Do you think Ontarians are anything like people from the East Coast, who are anything like people from the Prairies, who are anything like people from BC?
Quebec is no more or less special than any other part of this country. Get over yourself.
man, and i just wrote like an essay in one of the blogs talking about this crap. -_____-;;
anyways, i need an explanation as to why people are so bent on voting for tories.
Dion is not prime minister material? or people hate liberals just because of Dion? or people think Dion is incapable of fixing the economy? or people are afraid of tax? or are people too lazy to go re-vote?
On December 04 2008 00:52 karbon wrote: man, and i just wrote like an essay in one of the blogs talking about this crap. -_____-;;
anyways, i need an explanation as to why people are so bent on voting for tories.
Dion is not prime minister material? or people hate liberals just because of Dion? or people think Dion is incapable of fixing the economy? or people are afraid of tax? or are people too lazy to go re-vote?
do explain.
you can probably deduce my position.
Either Canadians vote for: a) Change b) The lesser evil c) Nobody Nowadays most go either a) or c), hence the abnormally high conservative vote. Some voted conservative, even though they hate them, because they're sick of minority governments!
On December 04 2008 00:52 karbon wrote: man, and i just wrote like an essay in one of the blogs talking about this crap. -_____-;;
anyways, i need an explanation as to why people are so bent on voting for tories.
Dion is not prime minister material? - Not really. he his just not charismatic and don't look like behing able to hold power over things. He isn't really good to get his message over other people (other thing too..) or people hate liberals just because of Dion? - It's a reason but, I think, one of the main reason is all the "scandale des commendites" that the Liberals did under Chretien. or people think Dion is incapable of fixing the economy? - I personally thing he could do better the Harper about this (well.. a 6 grade could do better then Harper about economy) or people are afraid of tax? - Yes, people hate taz raise, duh! or are people too lazy to go re-vote? - Not lazy but it's cost so much to start an election, we don't want to re-enter into a costly election. We are already in a economic failure around the world and we, in Canada, instead of finding solution to reduce the cost of lots of thing, start multiple election lol O.o
On December 03 2008 06:15 a-game wrote: just to be clear, because flaccid said this in another thread, the Bloc will not play a formal role in the government. they won't sit on the government side of the house, they won't hold cabinet positions or any other government positions.
their support will be purely tacit, they've agreed to support all confidence motions for 18 months and will be occasionally consulted but other than that they won't be apart of the coalition.
Again, they have to be part of the coalition, the ndp and the liberals do not have enough seats. They HAVE to sit on the Government side of the house, because they will be part of the GOVERNMENT.
they are not apart of the coalition, they are only agreeing to support the liberal-ndp coalition. it was reported on cbc news that the liberals and the ndp will sit together on the government side of the house, and split the cabinet positions 18 liberal 6 ndp. the bloc won't be apart of the government though.
please stop posting as if you know what you are talking about.
The difference is mostly semantical. Even though the Bloc pledged not to oppose the coalition, it isn't binding. The Bloc will be consulted over everything, or the new government will sink down the drain.
no it wont
if the bloc makes demands that brings down the coalition, or even just makes the coalition look bad, that will lead to a conservative majority next election. The Bloc does not want that for obvious reasons (how well would quebec treat them if they were seen as bringing the conservatives to power?)
This wont lead to quebec seperating
I'm pretty neutral on the coalition, but its harpers own fucking fault for continuously acting like an idiot.
The above post is an example of why the three parties can not afford to let the coalition fail. If it fails, it will lead almost certainly to a conservative majority. The liberals/NDP know that will happen, and arent so suicidal to let the coalition to easily fail.
You're wrong.
First, elections wouldn't lead to a conservative majority, especially right after this mess, which is the conservatives' doing. Many swing voters must have changed their minds by now. As for the other opposition parties, they look better than before the elections, that is for certain.
Second, the Bloc has the least to lose in calling for new elections. The federal government is so pathetic right now that it might convince more Quebeckers to vote Bloc after all.
Third, the Bloc isn't actively promoting sovereignty at the moment. The Party Quebecois is just too impotent these days to be worth the effort.
In short, the Bloc has chosen the lesser evil, for the moment. But that coalition won't last long, if at all, should it ignore the party that holds the balance of power. Trust me, there will be many backroom deals from this point on, and the backroom is where real politics are decided.
[sarcasm] Let's have an election every week! [/sarcasm]
I hope they do call another election and Harper wins majority. Then I won't have to listen to the Liberals and NDP fight about power and how they're being to stuck up and power-mongering to actually do their jobs. Just because a party wants to win, doesn't mean the people want them to win. We live in a democracy, suck it up princess(s).
On December 04 2008 00:52 karbon wrote: man, and i just wrote like an essay in one of the blogs talking about this crap. -_____-;;
anyways, i need an explanation as to why people are so bent on voting for tories.
Dion is not prime minister material? or people hate liberals just because of Dion? or people think Dion is incapable of fixing the economy? or people are afraid of tax? or are people too lazy to go re-vote?
do explain.
you can probably deduce my position.
Either Canadians vote for: a) Change b) The lesser evil c) Nobody Nowadays most go either a) or c), hence the abnormally high conservative vote. Some voted conservative, even though they hate them, because they're sick of minority governments!
that's really too bad they decided to choose the wrong ones...
a) Change: yes change is good, but not when a new group of people come in without any clue as to what they're doing c) Nobody: which is as bad as the previous one, because they aren't stopping the new group of people who have no clue what they're doing to come into power
the most important choice is discarded.
b) The lesser of two evil: which would benefit Canada MUCH MORE than having the greater of two evil in power....
i felt angry about canadian voters who chose a or c, but now i just feel sorry for them.
On December 04 2008 01:17 GiTM.Dante wrote: [sarcasm] Let's have an election every week! [/sarcasm]
I hope they do call another election and Harper wins majority. Then I won't have to listen to the Liberals and NDP fight about power and how they're being to stuck up and power-mongering to actually do their jobs. Just because a party wants to win, doesn't mean the people want them to win. We live in a democracy, suck it up princess(s).
it's not about power. in fact, that couldn't be farther from the truth.
it's about two things:
1) fixing the economy, which harper is doing a terrible job at it 2) saving their skins from bankruptcy, because if they disappear, the conservatives will rule forever, and Canada would then become a dictatorship country.
On December 04 2008 01:17 GiTM.Dante wrote: [sarcasm] Let's have an election every week! [/sarcasm]
I hope they do call another election and Harper wins majority. Then I won't have to listen to the Liberals and NDP fight about power and how they're being to stuck up and power-mongering to actually do their jobs. Just because a party wants to win, doesn't mean the people want them to win. We live in a democracy, suck it up princess(s).
The fact we live in a democracy is exactly the reason why the opposition has every moral and legal right to vote out the opposition. The Liberals/NDP/Bloc represent the majority of the nation and thus are entitled to replace the government as they see fit. This is not power-mongering; Stephen Harper forced this situation when he attempted to financially cripple the opposition parties, its obvious that they're going to vote him out if he tries provocative shit like this and coalition governments happen ALL the fucking time in Europe. And I'm sorry to dissappoint you, but there won't be another election; it would be political suicide if the GG actually called one and as a result we will have a coalition that will probably be more effective that the conservatives have been thus far.
In general, it would appear a lot of people here are convinced, with little justification, that this coalition won't get anything done or will fall apart quickly. I would usually take the time to explain why it won't, but since other posters have already tried to explain it and are just being ignored/disregarded, I think I'll just remember to say "I told you so" when the coalition lasts 2+ years.
On December 04 2008 01:46 HumbleZealot wrote:In general, it would appear a lot of people here are convinced, with little justification, that this coalition won't get anything done or will fall apart quickly.
i agree with everything you mentioned.
i believe the perspective of the tory voters are as such:
there are three types of tory voters; those from the prairies (the die-hard supporters), those who want change as mentioned above, and those who choose from their asses and vote randomly.
from the perspective of the prairies population, it's quite understandable as to why they would vote conservatives. the conservatives support them. they fear that if a liberal, or otherwise, party were to come into power, the funding would be focused towards Ontario, which is the heart of Canadian economy. they fear they would be neglected. very understandable.
those who vote for change, unfortunately, are not aware of the tory policies, and way of handling things. they are not aware of all the gaffs that have been made by a tory government in history, which trumps all other gaffs by the liberals.
an example: brian mulroney took money from Canada to fund his shit that is IRRELEVANT to the interest of Canada. (wiki it, too long to write). harper also ignored the interest of Canada. instead of fixing the economy, he worries about losing power, and tries to rid the Hill of these parties. the liberals have had scandals, yes, but they were of a personal nature, and by that i mean that even though the scandals occurred, it did NOT affect the efficiency and productivity of the Canadian economy growth. the economy was still in good shape.
and then we come to those who vote conservatives just because they were sick of voting.
I will be blunt. This is the group comprised of ignorant, stupid, selfish, self-centered and most of all, LAZY motherfuckers.
They are ignorant because they are not aware that by granting the conservatives a vote, which would lead to a majority, harper has the white card to do WHAT EVER HE WANTS. which would DESTROY Canada.
They are stupid because of the same reason.
They are selfish and self-centered because they are LAZY. they don't want to re-vote because of their LAZINESS. Too much energy. Too tired to re-vote. Afraid of losing money, they are losing money anyways as long as the Tories are in power. Absolutely useless and lazy.
On December 04 2008 01:17 GiTM.Dante wrote: [sarcasm] Let's have an election every week! [/sarcasm]
I hope they do call another election and Harper wins majority. Then I won't have to listen to the Liberals and NDP fight about power and how they're being to stuck up and power-mongering to actually do their jobs. Just because a party wants to win, doesn't mean the people want them to win. We live in a democracy, suck it up princess(s).
The fact we live in a democracy is exactly the reason why the opposition has every moral and legal right to vote out the opposition. The Liberals/NDP/Bloc represent the majority of the nation and thus are entitled to replace the government as they see fit. This is not power-mongering; Stephen Harper forced this situation when he attempted to financially cripple the opposition parties, its obvious that they're going to vote him out if he tries provocative shit like this and coalition governments happen ALL the fucking time in Europe. And I'm sorry to dissappoint you, but there won't be another election; it would be political suicide if the GG actually called one and as a result we will have a coalition that will probably be more effective that the conservatives have been thus far.
In general, it would appear a lot of people here are convinced, with little justification, that this coalition won't get anything done or will fall apart quickly. I would usually take the time to explain why it won't, but since other posters have already tried to explain it and are just being ignored/disregarded, I think I'll just remember to say "I told you so" when the coalition lasts 2+ years.
Edit: atleast karbon understands the situation
I think a coalition government could work, and be successful. Until they release some kind of platform as to what they actually plan on doing, did I miss it?, I'll stick behind my decision. The fact is that in a first past the post electoral system, coalition governments dont tend to fair that well. I'm not going against a coalition just to spite them, I just don't believe it will be overly successful, despite them having the popular vote when added together, they are still seperate entities and have different opinions on different matters. Political parties dont seem to reach middle ground that easily and I don't think we should be in a state of flux with our government during a time of global economic cooldown.
I'm interested to see how the Govenor General reacts, I think it will be interesting.
On December 04 2008 01:46 HumbleZealot wrote:In general, it would appear a lot of people here are convinced, with little justification, that this coalition won't get anything done or will fall apart quickly.
i agree with everything you mentioned.
i believe the perspective of the tory voters are as such:
there are three types of tory voters; those from the prairies (the die-hard supporters), those who want change as mentioned above, and those who choose from their asses and vote randomly.
from the perspective of the prairies population, it's quite understandable as to why they would vote conservatives. the conservatives support them. they fear that if a liberal, or otherwise, party were to come into power, the funding would be focused towards Ontario, which is the heart of Canadian economy. they fear they would be neglected. very understandable.
those who vote for change, unfortunately, are not aware of the tory policies, and way of handling things. they are not aware of all the gaffs that have been made by a tory government in history, which trumps all other gaffs by the liberals.
an example: brian mulroney took money from Canada to fund his shit that is IRRELEVANT to the interest of Canada. (wiki it, too long to write). harper also ignored the interest of Canada. instead of fixing the economy, he worries about losing power, and tries to rid the Hill of these parties. the liberals have had scandals, yes, but they were of a personal nature, and by that i mean that even though the scandals occurred, it did NOT affect the efficiency and productivity of the Canadian economy growth. the economy was still in good shape.
and then we come to those who vote conservatives just because they were sick of voting.
I will be blunt. This is the group comprised of ignorant, stupid, selfish, self-centered and most of all, LAZY motherfuckers.
They are ignorant because they are not aware that by granting the conservatives a vote, which would lead to a majority, harper has the white card to do WHAT EVER HE WANTS. which would DESTROY Canada.
They are stupid because of the same reason.
They are selfish and self-centered because they are LAZY. they don't want to re-vote because of their LAZINESS. Too much energy. Too tired to re-vote. Afraid of losing money, they are losing money anyways as long as the Tories are in power. Absolutely useless and lazy.
Ontario is in for hard times with this economic cooldown and many factories seem to be closing. I also think you're confusing the Conservative party with the Progressive Conservatives and Canadian Alliance parties. Mulroney was a member of the PC. This conservative party was founded in 2003, which incorporated some of the PC/CA. You can't attribute one parties disaster to a new party. Only time will tell us.
On December 04 2008 01:46 HumbleZealot wrote:In general, it would appear a lot of people here are convinced, with little justification, that this coalition won't get anything done or will fall apart quickly.
i agree with everything you mentioned.
i believe the perspective of the tory voters are as such:
there are three types of tory voters; those from the prairies (the die-hard supporters), those who want change as mentioned above, and those who choose from their asses and vote randomly.
from the perspective of the prairies population, it's quite understandable as to why they would vote conservatives. the conservatives support them. they fear that if a liberal, or otherwise, party were to come into power, the funding would be focused towards Ontario, which is the heart of Canadian economy. they fear they would be neglected. very understandable.
those who vote for change, unfortunately, are not aware of the tory policies, and way of handling things. they are not aware of all the gaffs that have been made by a tory government in history, which trumps all other gaffs by the liberals.
an example: brian mulroney took money from Canada to fund his shit that is IRRELEVANT to the interest of Canada. (wiki it, too long to write). harper also ignored the interest of Canada. instead of fixing the economy, he worries about losing power, and tries to rid the Hill of these parties. the liberals have had scandals, yes, but they were of a personal nature, and by that i mean that even though the scandals occurred, it did NOT affect the efficiency and productivity of the Canadian economy growth. the economy was still in good shape.
and then we come to those who vote conservatives just because they were sick of voting.
I will be blunt. This is the group comprised of ignorant, stupid, selfish, self-centered and most of all, LAZY motherfuckers.
They are ignorant because they are not aware that by granting the conservatives a vote, which would lead to a majority, harper has the white card to do WHAT EVER HE WANTS. which would DESTROY Canada.
They are stupid because of the same reason.
They are selfish and self-centered because they are LAZY. they don't want to re-vote because of their LAZINESS. Too much energy. Too tired to re-vote. Afraid of losing money, they are losing money anyways as long as the Tories are in power. Absolutely useless and lazy.
Ontario is in for hard times with this economic cooldown and many factories seem to be closing. I also think you're confusing the Conservative party with the Progressive Conservatives and Canadian Alliance parties. Mulroney was a member of the PC. This conservative party was founded in 2003, which incorporated some of the PC/CA. You can't attribute one parties disaster to a new party. Only time will tell us.
you're right. i shouldn't attribute past disasters to new party.
but i'm under the impression that even with the new party, old tendencies do come back. the backbone of the philosophy still remains, despite its modification.
EPT
