Prop 8 Passes/Overturned - California Bans/Unbans Gay Marr…

On August 05 2010 15:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:

Are you trying to argue that if a bunch of people agree on the same injustice that it makes it alright? That doesn't seem fair. That is like saying slavery was alright until the majority decided otherwise. Did I misread what you said? You voiced your opinion and your feeling on morality by decided that your view of right and wrong was more important than another persons freedom? I misread your post. But I will leave my mistake here.

You say you are against prop 8, by that do you mean you are against its existence or you are for gay marriage? From what I can tell its that you are against its existence. However a lot of your posts referred to gay marriage being wrong and shouldn't exist for religious/moral reasons X/Y.

Edit: Rurouni Kenshin? Otherwise I haven't watched any other show with the same character name.

On August 05 2010 16:59 d_so wrote:


I think gay marriage is wrong. I am against it. But the scope of my belief is limited to me and a few of my immediate family members, because I personally don't believe any belief should be valued over a person. If others choose such a path then I respect their differences.

I can understand why you might have misread something since the OP was horribly written. It was written more to unlodge the thoughts stuck in my brain than for actual clarity reasons. There were so many conflicting ideas raging through my head and I was just as confused writing it as you may have been reading it. But basically, my ideas are as follows:

1.) It's mostly Christians who were for prop 8
2.) I'm christian. Am I for prop 8?
3.) Gay marriage is wrong. My bible tells me so. Actually, the topic is not even approached, but being gay is an act of sodomy in the bible, so I guess gay marriage being wrong is an extension of that.
4.) Marriage extends far beyond the history of Christianity. There's no denying this.
5.) This means that different religions and even different denominations within Christianity have different definitions of marriage.
6.) In regards to our nations laws, each religion should be free to practice their religion within realistic limits. Extending this, each definition of marriage should also be respected.
7.) So if each definition is to be respected, then there shouldn't be one overarching definition of religion, or marraige, that imposes its will over other religions.
8.) Then that means I am against prop 8. And I can do so while remaining a Christian because I believe in freedom of religion and I can respect their ideas even though I believe they are wrong. Plus, there shouldn't be laws that imposes our religion over others or circulates our ideas into secular law. Separation of church and state.
9.) The only way I can see Christians being able to realistically support prop 8 is if there is plausible evidence that Christian churches are being forced to conduct gay marriages against their will. Even then I don't think prop 8 is legally sound, but I can justify the rage from Christians if they're being coerced to go against their religion. That means their freedom of religion is not being respected and are lashing out justifiably.

I can write my thought process a bit more clearly cuz so much time has passed, but even still it is a bit confusing. Hope this helps.

And yeah, I mean Rurouni Kenshin. Basically that whole show's moral premise is based around idealogy vs. humanity, as in do you value ideas over life? Or vice versa? Kenshin's prior life as Himoura Battousai represents a life where he valued ideas over life. His 10 years of penance and his backwards sword represents his new philosophy, as taught by Tomoe (watch the OVAs!), that life is more valuable. But even through the 10 years he could only conceptualize it, he couldn't 100% apply it to his own life, as evidenced by his dependency on going yellow-eyes to win tough fights. It's only when his master refuses to acknowledge him as student -- after he attemtped to Battousaid while learning the Amakaru Ryu no Hiormeki (LOL IM A NERD) -- that Kenshin learned that life + love is more valuable than ideas + sacrifical willingness.

Pretty much best anime ever

On August 05 2010 16:59 d_so wrote:


I think gay marriage is wrong. I am against it. But the scope of my belief is limited to me and a few of my immediate family members, because I personally don't believe any belief should be valued over a person. If others choose such a path then I respect their differences.

I can understand why you might have misread something since the OP was horribly written. It was written more to unlodge the thoughts stuck in my brain than for actual clarity reasons. There were so many conflicting ideas raging through my head and I was just as confused writing it as you may have been reading it. But basically, my ideas are as follows:

1.) It's mostly Christians who were for prop 8
2.) I'm christian. Am I for prop 8?
3.) Gay marriage is wrong. My bible tells me so. Actually, the topic is not even approached, but being gay is an act of sodomy in the bible, so I guess gay marriage being wrong is an extension of that.
4.) Marriage extends far beyond the history of Christianity. There's no denying this.
5.) This means that different religions and even different denominations within Christianity have different definitions of marriage.
6.) In regards to our nations laws, each religion should be free to practice their religion within realistic limits. Extending this, each definition of marriage should also be respected.
7.) So if each definition is to be respected, then there shouldn't be one overarching definition of religion, or marraige, that imposes its will over other religions.
8.) Then that means I am against prop 8. And I can do so while remaining a Christian because I believe in freedom of religion and I can respect their ideas even though I believe they are wrong. Plus, there shouldn't be laws that imposes our religion over others or circulates our ideas into secular law. Separation of church and state.
9.) The only way I can see Christians being able to realistically support prop 8 is if there is plausible evidence that Christian churches are being forced to conduct gay marriages against their will. Even then I don't think prop 8 is legally sound, but I can justify the rage from Christians if they're being coerced to go against their religion. That means their freedom of religion is not being respected and are lashing out justifiably.

I can write my thought process a bit more clearly cuz so much time has passed, but even still it is a bit confusing. Hope this helps.

And yeah, I mean Rurouni Kenshin. Basically that whole show's moral premise is based around idealogy vs. humanity, as in do you value ideas over life? Or vice versa? Kenshin's prior life as Himoura Battousai represents a life where he valued ideas over life. His 10 years of penance and his backwards sword represents his new philosophy, as taught by Tomoe (watch the OVAs!), that life is more valuable. But even through the 10 years he could only conceptualize it, he couldn't 100% apply it to his own life, as evidenced by his dependency on going yellow-eyes to win tough fights. It's only when his master refuses to acknowledge him as student -- after he attemtped to Battousaid while learning the Amakaru Ryu no Hiormeki (LOL IM A NERD) -- that Kenshin learned that life + love is more valuable than ideas + sacrifical willingness.

Pretty much best anime ever

8.) Then that means I am against prop 8. And I can do so while remaining a Christian because I believe in freedom of religion and I can respect their ideas even though I believe they are wrong. Plus, there shouldn't be laws that imposes our religion over others or circulates our ideas into secular law. Separation of church and state.
9.) The only way I can see Christians being able to realistically support prop 8 is if there is plausible evidence that Christian churches are being forced to conduct gay marriages against their will. Even then I don't think prop 8 is legally sound, but I can justify the rage from Christians if they're being coerced to go against their religion. That means their freedom of religion is not being respected and are lashing out justifiably.

Top Ten Reasons to Make Gay Marriage Illegal

01) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

02) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

03) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all like many of the principles on which this great country was founded; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of marriages like Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

07) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

08) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

On August 05 2010 11:19 kzn wrote:


And see Machiavelli for a complete disagreement. And see Mill for a wildly different rationalized ethical view.

There is nothing about Kant that makes his view any more likely to represent how things "should" be than any other view. You might not like moral skepticism, but you're going to have to accept it until you can actually overcome it.

On August 06 2010 01:07 LoliKuma wrote:
http://jaysays.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/decision.pdf

Full transcript of the decision regarding this case.

"A PRIVATE MORAL VIEW THAT SAME-SEX COUPLES ARE INFERIOR TO OPPOSITE-SEX COUPLES IS NOT A PROPER BASIS FOR LEGISLATION"

I love how the judge wrote this in caps.

On August 05 2010 16:59 d_so wrote:


I think gay marriage is wrong. I am against it. But the scope of my belief is limited to me and a few of my immediate family members, because I personally don't believe any belief should be valued over a person. If others choose such a path then I respect their differences.

I can understand why you might have misread something since the OP was horribly written. It was written more to unlodge the thoughts stuck in my brain than for actual clarity reasons. There were so many conflicting ideas raging through my head and I was just as confused writing it as you may have been reading it. But basically, my ideas are as follows:

1.) It's mostly Christians who were for prop 8
2.) I'm christian. Am I for prop 8?
3.) Gay marriage is wrong. My bible tells me so. Actually, the topic is not even approached, but being gay is an act of sodomy in the bible, so I guess gay marriage being wrong is an extension of that.
4.) Marriage extends far beyond the history of Christianity. There's no denying this.
5.) This means that different religions and even different denominations within Christianity have different definitions of marriage.
6.) In regards to our nations laws, each religion should be free to practice their religion within realistic limits. Extending this, each definition of marriage should also be respected.
7.) So if each definition is to be respected, then there shouldn't be one overarching definition of religion, or marraige, that imposes its will over other religions.
8.) Then that means I am against prop 8. And I can do so while remaining a Christian because I believe in freedom of religion and I can respect their ideas even though I believe they are wrong. Plus, there shouldn't be laws that imposes our religion over others or circulates our ideas into secular law. Separation of church and state.
9.) The only way I can see Christians being able to realistically support prop 8 is if there is plausible evidence that Christian churches are being forced to conduct gay marriages against their will. Even then I don't think prop 8 is legally sound, but I can justify the rage from Christians if they're being coerced to go against their religion. That means their freedom of religion is not being respected and are lashing out justifiably.

I can write my thought process a bit more clearly cuz so much time has passed, but even still it is a bit confusing. Hope this helps.

And yeah, I mean Rurouni Kenshin. Basically that whole show's moral premise is based around idealogy vs. humanity, as in do you value ideas over life? Or vice versa? Kenshin's prior life as Himoura Battousai represents a life where he valued ideas over life. His 10 years of penance and his backwards sword represents his new philosophy, as taught by Tomoe (watch the OVAs!), that life is more valuable. But even through the 10 years he could only conceptualize it, he couldn't 100% apply it to his own life, as evidenced by his dependency on going yellow-eyes to win tough fights. It's only when his master refuses to acknowledge him as student -- after he attemtped to Battousaid while learning the Amakaru Ryu no Hiormeki (LOL IM A NERD) -- that Kenshin learned that life + love is more valuable than ideas + sacrifical willingness.

Pretty much best anime ever

On August 06 2010 02:06 Shrewmy wrote:
Anyone who cites the Bible in opposition to gay marriage should also have no problem with the following -

Stoning your children to death if they disobey you consistently.
Cutting off a woman's hand if she touches a man's genitals (That isn't her husbands)
Justification for slavery.
Giving up daughters to be raped.

It doesn't matter if it's in the Old Testament, Jesus also stated that all the laws of the old book still stand.

I find it insulting that Christians claim moral superiority whilst backing a book that for almost half of the book deals with incest, ethnic cleansing, slavery, rape, murder, war and a God that gets a kick out of genocide.

That's not even the worst of it, I find it even more insulting when they simply cherry pick verses from both the Old and New testaments, and simply ignore the more morally questionable passages, as if they're any less relevant messages inspired from God.

Marriage can be sanctioned by the state, it is a legal issue.

Keep your backwards bronze age zombie mythology out of what people can or cannot do.

On August 06 2010 01:58 PanN wrote:


I'm sick and tired of the type of person you are, MARRIAGE, IS, NOT, A, RELIGIOUS, ISSUE.

In the U.S, when I get married, the STATE provides me my rights, its a STATE issue. Some shitty church shack, does not provide my rights, the STATE does.

Please drill this into your brain, before you continue to say you're against it because of your bible.

Bible also says LOADS of terrible things, yet you don't choose to follow those do you? No, of course not. -_- Quit cherry picking

Like, by the way, I'm sure you've played SC, or have other material possessions, guess what kid? You're going to hell. That's right, if you own things, you're going to hell. So have fun with that. Jesus said it so it must be true.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7199303250909790750#

P.S. Marriage was around before your book.