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Finland43270 Posts
On October 28 2024 21:05 Magic Powers wrote:
In all seriousness though, productivity is literally impossible to measure. There are too many variables that can't be objectively accounted for. Human bias always takes over. That's why I've always been a huge opponent of the grading system in school.
you are very wrong here tbh.
Productivity is VERY easy to measure, if companies wanted to do that.
Letting go of grading system in schools result in... well.. bad. Like in Finland who went woke go broke in our school system.
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On November 03 2024 08:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2024 21:05 Magic Powers wrote:
In all seriousness though, productivity is literally impossible to measure. There are too many variables that can't be objectively accounted for. Human bias always takes over. That's why I've always been a huge opponent of the grading system in school. you are very wrong here tbh. Productivity is VERY easy to measure, if companies wanted to do that. Letting go of grading system in schools result in... well.. bad. Like in Finland who went woke go broke in our school system.
What do you actually want to do?
How you judge productivity entirely stems from that
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Finland43270 Posts
On November 03 2024 08:23 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2024 08:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 28 2024 21:05 Magic Powers wrote:
In all seriousness though, productivity is literally impossible to measure. There are too many variables that can't be objectively accounted for. Human bias always takes over. That's why I've always been a huge opponent of the grading system in school. you are very wrong here tbh. Productivity is VERY easy to measure, if companies wanted to do that. Letting go of grading system in schools result in... well.. bad. Like in Finland who went woke go broke in our school system. What do you actually want to do? How you judge productivity entirely stems from that
What do you mean "What do you actually want to do? " ?
I am sorry i don't really get your point here.
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Finland43270 Posts
I judge productivity by if it does (and how much) income for the company you work for.
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We review these fairly consistently.
Company wide - revenue/profit, market capture rate etc
Department wide - depends on the department but eg IT support : number of request/solve/time to solve/downtime.
Individual - annual review with KPI and update job responsibilities with new KPI set on it.
What WombaT and some don't understand is, companies like tesla and space x that push the industries forward.
Asking the companies to hold their timeline accountable are completely not getting why we have advanced the entire front for a few decades.
Thinking space exploration is not useful is not understanding how all technology is key to both the problem and solution, and that we are able to capture the scope of the problem, eg climate change, is because of the technological advancement we have.
I just watched an exclusive documentary on deepmind, even who would fund such a VC (no business model) had them bumping their head. That pretty much sums up how wrong all the people saying Elon is just a business man is.
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Finland43270 Posts
On November 03 2024 09:19 ETisME wrote:
We review these fairly consistently.
Company wide - revenue/profit, market capture rate etc
Department wide - depends on the department but eg IT support : number of request/solve/time to solve/downtime.
Individual - annual review with KPI and update job responsibilities with new KPI set on it.
What WombaT and some don't understand is, companies like tesla and space x that push the industries forward.
Asking the companies to hold their timeline accountable are completely not getting why we have advanced the entire front for a few decades.
Thinking space exploration is not useful is not understanding how all technology is key to both the problem and solution, and that we are able to capture the scope of the problem, eg climate change, is because of the technological advancement we have.
I just watched an exclusive documentary on deepmind, even who would fund such a VC (no business model) had them bumping their head. That pretty much sums up how wrong all the people saying Elon is just a business man is.
Idk if this is true, but most likely it is.
If you job pays off, it's most likely because it should..
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On November 03 2024 09:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2024 09:19 ETisME wrote:
We review these fairly consistently.
Company wide - revenue/profit, market capture rate etc
Department wide - depends on the department but eg IT support : number of request/solve/time to solve/downtime.
Individual - annual review with KPI and update job responsibilities with new KPI set on it.
What WombaT and some don't understand is, companies like tesla and space x that push the industries forward.
Asking the companies to hold their timeline accountable are completely not getting why we have advanced the entire front for a few decades.
Thinking space exploration is not useful is not understanding how all technology is key to both the problem and solution, and that we are able to capture the scope of the problem, eg climate change, is because of the technological advancement we have.
I just watched an exclusive documentary on deepmind, even who would fund such a VC (no business model) had them bumping their head. That pretty much sums up how wrong all the people saying Elon is just a business man is. Idk if this is true, but most likely it is. If you job pays off, it's most likely because it should..
Our company is a bit special that because we actually get an overview of the entire business yearly, not just our individual dept KPI or our own.
It's all linked, so the company performance tie into how much resource it can spend to expand and where to allocate the resource.
No perfect matrix to capture your performance, but that's why setting it right at the start, what to measure, how to measure etc matters.
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i stopped being an elon fan, and became* a critic back in 2020 when he went enlightened centrist on covid and other nonsense. the seeds of his turn towards the right wing started back then when people like Bret Weinstein / Pool / Peterson (IDW) crowd gave him lots of compliments and acted as a siren's call. spacex is still amazing and he gets credit for founding that, but yeah man, fuck fascism and i hope he goes to prison or worse, treason afaik
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On November 03 2024 08:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2024 08:23 WombaT wrote:On November 03 2024 08:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 28 2024 21:05 Magic Powers wrote:
In all seriousness though, productivity is literally impossible to measure. There are too many variables that can't be objectively accounted for. Human bias always takes over. That's why I've always been a huge opponent of the grading system in school. you are very wrong here tbh. Productivity is VERY easy to measure, if companies wanted to do that. Letting go of grading system in schools result in... well.. bad. Like in Finland who went woke go broke in our school system. What do you actually want to do? How you judge productivity entirely stems from that What do you mean "What do you actually want to do? " ? I am sorry i don't really get your point here.
Ah no apologies needed, I don’t think even I know what I meant to say here
Productivity can be relatively trivial to measure, or close to impossible to impossible. If you work in say, sales, well making sales is your job, one can look at the sales you’re making and that’s quite a simple metric.
Hell outside of keeping you employed, businesses don’t really even try to accurately gauge it. Because it’s difficult to do in many circumstances, adds overhead and it’s just easier to pay relatively arbitrary salaries instead
As for getting rid of exams, or the general state of the Finnish education system, not really something I’m au fait with outside of the Finnish education system generally being well-regarded internationally.
Exams do test valuable skills, I think people can go a bit too far in this direction and discard them as useless. I don’t think they’re especially a good gauge of intelligence, creativity, independent learning etc.
They do test other things, which are valuable, especially within our broader socioeconomic systems. Diligence, prep and performing under some pressure. These are useful skills too, but they’re not ostensibly the ones you’re actually trying to test for.
I was always something of a test ace in my younger days. I’ve a good memory and, in my youth had zero anxiety whatsoever. That method of assessment was absolutely tailor made for me, I outperformed a lot of my peers who had previously outperformed me across the school year, and rather a lot subsequently outperformed me in post high-school/university life in real-world employment.
And that’s going back to the late 2000s, early 00s. It was already apparent then, it’s much more so now.
The world has shifted, having things like a very good memory, being a decent writer are just less useful than they used to be. For the former, hey we’ve the internet in our pockets, so being good at finding and sourcing stuff is beyond what even folks with eidetic memory can do. We had one with that particular skill in our cohort and it was remarkable to observe, but she wasn’t Ms Creative, and when you can look anything up, that ability becomes much less useful.
I used to be able to piss out ‘good enough’ bullshit for a small fee (or gratis for close friends) in various domains. I can still do it but Chat GPT can do it much quicker, in a volume I can’t hope to match. Although I think I can still write better
Anyway I went into a bit of a ramble. Testing doesn’t really test, or indeed prep you all that well for the wider realities of the modern world, or employment. There’s a reason many are trying to move away from it.
Doing my current degree and in the final year of it, we’ve had a few tests here and there, most of our assessment is building reasonably ambitious projects versus test grilling. Because in industry, being able to project plan, research and build something coherent is much more useful than say, knowing Java’s main method signature. Which incidentally I have memorised from back in the day
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On November 03 2024 09:19 ETisME wrote:
We review these fairly consistently.
Company wide - revenue/profit, market capture rate etc
Department wide - depends on the department but eg IT support : number of request/solve/time to solve/downtime.
Individual - annual review with KPI and update job responsibilities with new KPI set on it.
What WombaT and some don't understand is, companies like tesla and space x that push the industries forward.
Asking the companies to hold their timeline accountable are completely not getting why we have advanced the entire front for a few decades.
Thinking space exploration is not useful is not understanding how all technology is key to both the problem and solution, and that we are able to capture the scope of the problem, eg climate change, is because of the technological advancement we have.
I just watched an exclusive documentary on deepmind, even who would fund such a VC (no business model) had them bumping their head. That pretty much sums up how wrong all the people saying Elon is just a business man is.
What am I apparently not understanding here?
1. Musk is a fraud who doesn’t actually know even a quarter of what he bangs on about
2. SpaceX is a company that does cool shit, and have reduced associated costs with launching various things into space and have a lot of great engineering minds
These can co-exist perfectly comfortably as positions.
Musk rides on the coat tails of some very talented people, but he’s the multi-billionaire and the folks who actually delivered are not.
How have Tesla advanced things by decades? They’re a relatively luxury brand that have never really pivoted away from that. They’re arguably the most overvalued brand in human history. Which doesn’t mean their efforts are to be discarded either, but you talk of all these huge revolutions they’ve elicited and being decades ahead of the curve, how so?
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On October 25 2024 18:44 Harris1st wrote:
I thought his whole supporting of Trump act is because he wants to be made head of the department of transportation to pass some laws for Tesla and selfdriving vehicles?
can you be the head of the department of transportation in america without being american...?
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On November 03 2024 23:24 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2024 18:44 Harris1st wrote:
I thought his whole supporting of Trump act is because he wants to be made head of the department of transportation to pass some laws for Tesla and selfdriving vehicles? can you be the head of the department of transportation in america without being american...?
Well, you can be a governor and maybe even a president? Arnold Schwarzenegger is Austrian 
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Foreign born nationals are barred from the positions of president, VP and SCOTUS. All other positions are up for grabs. I'm reading right now that anyone can become Secretary of State (e.g. Henry Kissinger and Madeleine Albright).
About Tesla: the only thing they're "pushing" is faulty software with major red flags and no confirmation of its safety. Their car models are lackluster and overpriced. They're far behind the curve and they keep falling further behind.
Twitter is hiding its stock value since Musk took over and privated it. My guess is stock is declining because otherwise I'd expect him to have bragged about its success by this point. His silence is deafening.
SpaceX is arguably the only productive company Musk has a major stake in. He doesn't work on this project (he doesn't have any of the required expertise), his employees do all the work while he sits back and spends his time spreading misinformation and hatred on Twitter. His only contribution to SpaceX is that he founded the company and owns it. That's literally it.
Musk is merely the face of capitalism. He's not an inventor of anything.
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Elon Musk is the inverse Jesus. Anything bad that happens at his companies is because of him and anything good that happens at his companies is in spite of him.
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On November 04 2024 11:36 BlackJack wrote:
Elon Musk is the inverse Jesus. Anything bad that happens at his companies is because of him and anything good that happens at his companies is in spite of him.
I mean, pretty much? In this small thread alone plenty of evidence has been posted. Have you read through the website I posted? I haven't seen anyone debunking any of the information so far. oBlade has made a wild claim about big Tesla production and he has never responded to my request for a source.
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On November 04 2024 00:26 Magic Powers wrote:
Foreign born nationals are barred from the positions of president, VP and SCOTUS. All other positions are up for grabs. I'm reading right now that anyone can become Secretary of State (e.g. Henry Kissinger and Madeleine Albright).
About Tesla: the only thing they're "pushing" is faulty software with major red flags and no confirmation of its safety. Their car models are lackluster and overpriced. They're far behind the curve and they keep falling further behind.
Twitter is hiding its stock value since Musk took over and privated it. My guess is stock is declining because otherwise I'd expect him to have bragged about its success by this point. His silence is deafening.
SpaceX is arguably the only productive company Musk has a major stake in. He doesn't work on this project (he doesn't have any of the required expertise), his employees do all the work while he sits back and spends his time spreading misinformation and hatred on Twitter. His only contribution to SpaceX is that he founded the company and owns it. That's literally it.
Musk is merely the face of capitalism. He's not an inventor of anything.
as i already said above, im an ex fan of elons. i do want to push back against your SpaceX claim and his role here. while his role as "chief engineer" is laughable in terms of actually designing any part of the booster/avionics/second stage, what have you, he was involved heavily with how spacex became the giant in the industry. i would highly recommend the recent book "Re-entry" by Eric Berger. while most of the story is focused on the engineers within SpaceX, you can see pivotal moments and design philosophies that were chosen by Elon.
even if we pretend he has zero expertise, or value for the company theres no denying that he has pushed that company forward with the clear blueprint of getting to reusable rockets. he made the decision to end the falcon 1 rocket in pursuit of the falcon 9 just months after the falcon 1 was successful. he saw where the market and contracts were moving. as spacex was getting the falcon 9 to be a very reliable rocket and sending cargo up to the ISS, they were iterating towards it landing on droneships and RTLS. he was focused on getting to that point. other rocket companies would have been just stoked to have a medium launch vehicle that was reliable. not spacex and not elon. always cheaper, and faster cadence. and to then even after theyve become a defacto monopoly through sheer skill, what does elon push them towards? Starship, whos goal is to make the Falcon and Dragon products irrelevant. traditional aerospace or companies in general are loathed to try and do something like that. so thats where I will still give elon credit. its that iterative design, first principles silicon valley style disruption philosophy which he baked into the dna of that company
now, i do think post 2020 he could have fallen off the face of the earth and they would still be in a great position. they dont need him anymore, and if anything (as Eric Berger suggests in the books final chapter) he is practically the only one who could doom them or lose their extraordinary lead.
my synopsis for him today is that he was half brilliant and half idiot, and either due to ketamine, or twitter brain rot has moved that 50/50 to more of a 10/90. but make no mistake he once was amazing at hiring engineers and people smarter than him, and also making them buy into crazy visions and accomplishing them.
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Finland43270 Posts
On November 03 2024 23:09 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2024 08:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 03 2024 08:23 WombaT wrote:On November 03 2024 08:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 28 2024 21:05 Magic Powers wrote:
In all seriousness though, productivity is literally impossible to measure. There are too many variables that can't be objectively accounted for. Human bias always takes over. That's why I've always been a huge opponent of the grading system in school. you are very wrong here tbh. Productivity is VERY easy to measure, if companies wanted to do that. Letting go of grading system in schools result in... well.. bad. Like in Finland who went woke go broke in our school system. What do you actually want to do? How you judge productivity entirely stems from that What do you mean "What do you actually want to do? " ? I am sorry i don't really get your point here. Ah no apologies needed, I don’t think even I know what I meant to say here Productivity can be relatively trivial to measure, or close to impossible to impossible. If you work in say, sales, well making sales is your job, one can look at the sales you’re making and that’s quite a simple metric. Hell outside of keeping you employed, businesses don’t really even try to accurately gauge it. Because it’s difficult to do in many circumstances, adds overhead and it’s just easier to pay relatively arbitrary salaries instead
That's exactly very easy to measure. If one person in sales team is doing bad, and others are doing well, then the one doing bad is not productive (or doesn't know how to do their job properly -- aka still not being productive). If everyone is doing bad, then the reasoning is not necessarily everyone not being productive -- but with the product, or market, etc.. Nevertheless it is actually easy to measure. 
As for getting rid of exams, or the general state of the Finnish education system, not really something I’m au fait with outside of the Finnish education system generally being well-regarded internationally.
Exams do test valuable skills, I think people can go a bit too far in this direction and discard them as useless. I don’t think they’re especially a good gauge of intelligence, creativity, independent learning etc.
They do test other things, which are valuable, especially within our broader socioeconomic systems. Diligence, prep and performing under some pressure. These are useful skills too, but they’re not ostensibly the ones you’re actually trying to test for.
For the first paragraph, the Finnish system has been declining, and declining hard since the early 2000's (PISA scores). That's mostly because teachers dont have authority anymore. Like let's say there is a student that continuously disrupts the whole class, the teacher cannot do anything about it basically (i know many teachers here), also the estimation scales have gone to shit, last year i heard how you get a "not fail" in maths in 9th grade, and it was basically "the student can, with help, identify where maths can be used in everyday life" -- i was like wtf??
I completely agree with your second and third paragraph here.
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Finland43270 Posts
On November 04 2024 13:11 Husyelt wrote:
[....]
my synopsis for him today is that he was half brilliant and half idiot, and either due to ketamine, or twitter brain rot has moved that 50/50 to more of a 10/90. but make no mistake he once was amazing at hiring engineers and people smarter than him, and also making them buy into crazy visions and accomplishing them.
Doesn't this make him good at what he does?
I mean you can't really assume company owner is brilliant in everything the company does, your "job" is basically just to find the best people to do what you want to do. Does Musk not accomplish that?
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On November 04 2024 18:50 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2024 23:09 WombaT wrote:On November 03 2024 08:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 03 2024 08:23 WombaT wrote:On November 03 2024 08:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 28 2024 21:05 Magic Powers wrote:
In all seriousness though, productivity is literally impossible to measure. There are too many variables that can't be objectively accounted for. Human bias always takes over. That's why I've always been a huge opponent of the grading system in school. you are very wrong here tbh. Productivity is VERY easy to measure, if companies wanted to do that. Letting go of grading system in schools result in... well.. bad. Like in Finland who went woke go broke in our school system. What do you actually want to do? How you judge productivity entirely stems from that What do you mean "What do you actually want to do? " ? I am sorry i don't really get your point here. Ah no apologies needed, I don’t think even I know what I meant to say here Productivity can be relatively trivial to measure, or close to impossible to impossible. If you work in say, sales, well making sales is your job, one can look at the sales you’re making and that’s quite a simple metric. Hell outside of keeping you employed, businesses don’t really even try to accurately gauge it. Because it’s difficult to do in many circumstances, adds overhead and it’s just easier to pay relatively arbitrary salaries instead That's exactly very easy to measure. If one person in sales team is doing bad, and others are doing well, then the one doing bad is not productive (or doesn't know how to do their job properly -- aka still not being productive). If everyone is doing bad, then the reasoning is not necessarily everyone not being productive -- but with the product, or market, etc.. Nevertheless it is actually easy to measure. Show nested quote +As for getting rid of exams, or the general state of the Finnish education system, not really something I’m au fait with outside of the Finnish education system generally being well-regarded internationally.
Exams do test valuable skills, I think people can go a bit too far in this direction and discard them as useless. I don’t think they’re especially a good gauge of intelligence, creativity, independent learning etc.
They do test other things, which are valuable, especially within our broader socioeconomic systems. Diligence, prep and performing under some pressure. These are useful skills too, but they’re not ostensibly the ones you’re actually trying to test for. For the first paragraph, the Finnish system has been declining, and declining hard since the early 2000's (PISA scores). That's mostly because teachers dont have authority anymore. Like let's say there is a student that continuously disrupts the whole class, the teacher cannot do anything about it basically (i know many teachers here), also the estimation scales have gone to shit, last year i heard how you get a "not fail" in maths in 9th grade, and it was basically "the student can, with help, identify where maths can be used in everyday life" -- i was like wtf?? I completely agree with your second and third paragraph here.
I gave the sales one as an example of something that was actually easy and pretty unambiguous to measure, in contrast to many other jobs. Apologies if I made that unclear
Yeah, that does sound potentially concerning re Finnish education. I generally have an attitude to education that people will mislabel as ‘liberal’ or ‘left’, for me it’s very evidence-based, or at least employs some logical extrapolation when that doesn’t exist.
It’s not about making things easier, or less stressful or whatever as a particular goal. What are we trying to do, and does x work better or does y? Etc etc.
Defanging teachers from dealing with problem students, or perhaps merely students with certain behavioural/care needs that would be better place elsewhere, just disrupts the education of entire classrooms of kids and is actively counter-productive
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Northern Ireland27231 Posts
On November 04 2024 18:53 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2024 13:11 Husyelt wrote:
[....]
my synopsis for him today is that he was half brilliant and half idiot, and either due to ketamine, or twitter brain rot has moved that 50/50 to more of a 10/90. but make no mistake he once was amazing at hiring engineers and people smarter than him, and also making them buy into crazy visions and accomplishing them. Doesn't this make him good at what he does? I mean you can't really assume company owner is brilliant in everything the company does, your "job" is basically just to find the best people to do what you want to do. Does Musk not accomplish that?
I think many in this thread have given him some credit as some kind of ideas guy/micromanager/salesman/facilitator/fundraiser (delete where applicable).
The problem subsequently IMO became
1. People started to believe Musk was actually this brilliant individual who was brilliant at the things specialists in his companies did. A new Tesla if you will, rather than say, a Steve Jobs
2. Musk started to believe this and subsequently started behaving accordingly.
Either reading between various lines, or hearing various testimonies, anonymous or otherwise, it appears that whatever skillset Musk does have, it functioned better when he had either people around him he voluntarily deferred to the expertise of. Or alternatively, he had people of equivalent power around that could rein in his worst impulses.
Whatever’s changed, Musk isn’t doing his best work these days, I think is fair to say.
Space X is what you perhaps get with Musk working with people, Twitter is what you get when he’s calling all the shots.
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EPT
