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On October 25 2024 15:43 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 22:52 Magic Powers wrote:
Why is my little Austria suddenly in his focus now? Because a fascist party came into power, and Musk has made a name for himself supporting fascists such as Trump. Obviously he would support the fascist FPÖ as well and thus he believes every lie that favors our fascist party.
If the mainstream parties had actually done something about the massive amount of third world migration maybe they wouldn't have this problem, this backlash.People are just fed up of the lies and the false promises.
There really isn't a better quote to show that you are talking out of your ass. Considering how fucking wrong you are here, maybe you should take a cold hard look at the mirror and reevaluate all your beliefs.
Austria is neither an entry point into the EU for "third world migrants" (since it has no non-EU borders) nor is it a destination country for such migrants (the overwhelming majority that does not stay in the country of entry moves further West and North). The largest migrant population in Austria is from Germany... followed by migrants from Romania... the first non-EU country on the list of migrants is Serbia... Austria is hands down one of the least affected EU countries by "third world migration".
de.statista.com
Anyway seems the latest thing in Germany is a movement to ban AfD, which is clearly the wrong move.If AfD win a few seats they win a few seats.You have to accept the democratic will of the people in a democratic system otherwise you are the fascist.
I wouldn't even know where to start to point out that the AfD is an aggregation of the most deplorable human beings Germany has to offer... There has been a purge of "moderates" in the AfD leadership in the past years. Those "moderates" themselves were outright fascists in all their positions. But with the "moderates" gone, you are now left with such imbeciles like the guy that literally wrote a book with "Mein Kampf" in the title (go figure, where he found the inspiration for the title), and some other forms of human trash that walk around in literal Nazi events (the ones where swastikas dominate all flags).
On October 25 2024 20:15 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2024 20:04 Turbovolver wrote:On October 25 2024 19:48 BlackJack wrote:
Nvidia has a P/E ratio of 65. Another fraud!! Jensen Huang’s cult of personality. Can’t wait for it to go belly up with Tesla just like Theranos which was not a publicly traded company and not subject to the same reporting/auditing standards. This isn't even a response, you just picked one sentence of my post and pointed out a different company with a high P/E that we both know is for completely different reasons. But hey, instead of trying to pwn me with a zinger, why not just make a constructive post sharing what you like about him that makes you wanna sweat for him this hard? Is it just the money and business acumen? Someone in the other thread suggested his ditching fibreglass to go to steel was a genius move, I guess that's something? I dislike when people try to argue about his companies and his professional competency when it’s obvious they would not be making these arguments if he hadn’t come out as a right winger. If he was a left winger that said all the right things about social justice issues then all the people trashing him would be kissing his ass for saving the planet with his electric vehicles and exploring the solar system. Although to be fair the same is true for right-wingers that hated him when he was the electric car guy and now love him after he went full MAGA.
His "professional competency" lies in his ability to entice people to buy into what he is selling. He is basically an extremely successul salesman. Credit where credit is due, there are very few people who could have elevated projects like Tesla or SpaceX the way he has done. But this does not make him a tech genius, and it certainly does not make him infallible.
On October 25 2024 20:22 BlackJack wrote:
In other news TSLA stock was up 22% yesterday in their biggest day in over 10 years. That hideous cybertruck people liked to rake Elon over the coals as a terrible idea is now the 3rd best selling EV in the United States after the Tesla model Y and the Tesla model 3. If the cybertruck were a miserable failure we’d surely give Elon sole blame for it but now that it’s #3 of course Elon had nothing to do with it and it would have been even better without him.
This sounds great... before you take into account the actual numbers sold. The Cybertruck sold less than 3k units more than the 4th best selling vehicle, ~4k more than 5th place, 5k more than 6th place... While selling 52k less than 2nd place and 70k less than first place... Considering that the Cybertruck has been collecting pre-orders for years and still sells worse than cars that have been on the market for years, really does not paint a good picture.
insideevs.com
On October 25 2024 20:26 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2024 20:16 Magic Powers wrote:On October 25 2024 15:43 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On October 24 2024 22:52 Magic Powers wrote:
Why is my little Austria suddenly in his focus now? Because a fascist party came into power, and Musk has made a name for himself supporting fascists such as Trump. Obviously he would support the fascist FPÖ as well and thus he believes every lie that favors our fascist party.
If the mainstream parties had actually done something about the massive amount of third world migration maybe they wouldn't have this problem, this backlash. People are just fed up of the lies and the false promises.Anyway seems the latest thing in Germany is a movement to ban AfD, which is clearly the wrong move.If AfD win a few seats they win a few seats.You have to accept the democratic will of the people in a democratic system otherwise you are the fascist. People would have these views with Musk or without him, you're really overthinking this. What lies and propaganda are you talking about?? Austria's migration policy is among the more conservative ones and we don't have an "immigrant problem". Explain yourself. You also acknowledge that Germany has the same problem with its strong move to the far-right AfD. And you're telling me I have to accept that people vote fascist or otherwise I'm a fascist? What even is this reasoning? Do you even read your own comments before you post them? Unlike Nazi which pretty much reshaped media and pretty drastic violence to actually get rid of opposition. AFAIK AfD is a legally voted in parties without resorting to those method. It is actually more harmful to ban AfD since that's pretty much a much bigger direct hit to the democratic system, which set up a pretty horrible precedent. In particular the entire reason on the AfD popularity rise is caused by the government refusal to accept and act on the issue.
Not only is your take on the AfD absurd, considering the swastika waving members they have, but your claim that other parties do not "act on the issue" is plain wrong. Here I am assuming that "the issue" is migration. Feel free to correct me, if "the issue" in your mind is gays or trans people!
Ever since Merkel's infamous interview, when she said that "everybody is welcome" and "we can do this", the German government has done the following (non-exhaustive list):
- financed EU-border enhancing measures (e.g. fences in Bulgaria and Greece)
- financed EU-border guards stationed on all EU-borders
- financed sea-border patrols that push back migrants to the country of departure
- made a deal with Turkey to keep migrants there
- made a deal with Libya to push back migrants there
- financed migrant centers in Libya to keep them there rather than have them land in the EU
- financed migrant centers on Greek islands to detain migrants there rather than have them be on the EU mainland
- enabled extraditions to a bunch of countries that were previously considered unsafe for migrant extraditions
At this point, the AfD has literally zero suggestions on how to combat migration that have not already been implemented. This of course, does not prevent them from making the migrant issue a selling point. It is worth pointing out that they have fanned out their policies to other imaginary problems like having to protect children from trans people and some such.
www.tagesschau.de
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So the cybertruck, which is the ugly car that was supposed to highlight Elon Musk’s ineptitude is the 3rd best selling EV in the US, selling more than any EV by Ford, more than any EV by GM, more than any EV by Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Kia, and the comeback is “oh yeah well it’s only a few thousand more than #4. lol. It’s still behind the #1 and #2 best selling EVs, which you neglect to mention are also Teslas. Sorry this is just not a serious conversation.
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On October 26 2024 13:45 BlackJack wrote:
So the cybertruck, which is the ugly car that was supposed to highlight Elon Musk’s ineptitude is the 3rd best selling EV in the US, selling more than any EV by Ford, more than any EV by GM, more than any EV by Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Kia, and the comeback is “oh yeah well it’s only a few thousand more than #4. lol. It’s still behind the #1 and #2 best selling EVs, which you neglect to mention are also Teslas. Sorry this is just not a serious conversation.
Obviously, you are not sorry. And obviously, your comment is meant to be sarcastic. You have a long track record of showing that you are incapable of human emotions anyway. Not sure if it is longer than your track record of asinine political statements but it surely is in the same ballpark. Your decision to forgo the comment on your defense of literal Nazis in the face of AfD is on par with your regular posts.
But sure, let's ignore everything else and focus on the Cybertruck! In what world is it not "a serious conversation" to show that the Cybertruck is a failure of a product that sells just as badly as other fringe ev cars despite having the advantage of bolstering its sales numbers by pre-orders? How is it not "a serious conversation" to show that its sales are effectively an order of magnitude lower than the sales of the best selling ev car?
Not to mention that I never said anything about the model 3 or model Y. As a matter of fact, the model Y is a pretty decent vehicle that also managed to deliver what consumers want. The success of the model Y and model 3 certainly does not show that the Cybertruck is a great product. If anything, it shows that the Cybertruck is a failure that cannot compete on the ev market despite profiting from the legacy of Tesla.
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On October 26 2024 14:32 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2024 13:45 BlackJack wrote:
So the cybertruck, which is the ugly car that was supposed to highlight Elon Musk’s ineptitude is the 3rd best selling EV in the US, selling more than any EV by Ford, more than any EV by GM, more than any EV by Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Kia, and the comeback is “oh yeah well it’s only a few thousand more than #4. lol. It’s still behind the #1 and #2 best selling EVs, which you neglect to mention are also Teslas. Sorry this is just not a serious conversation. Obviously, you are not sorry. And obviously, your comment is meant to be sarcastic. You have a long track record of showing that you are incapable of human emotions anyway. Not sure if it is longer than your track record of asinine political statements but it surely is in the same ballpark. Your decision to forgo the comment on your defense of literal Nazis in the face of AfD is on par with your regular posts. But sure, let's ignore everything else and focus on the Cybertruck! In what world is it not "a serious conversation" to show that the Cybertruck is a failure of a product that sells just as badly as other fringe ev cars despite having the advantage of bolstering its sales numbers by pre-orders? How is it not "a serious conversation" to show that its sales are effectively an order of magnitude lower than the sales of the best selling ev car? Not to mention that I never said anything about the model 3 or model Y. As a matter of fact, the model Y is a pretty decent vehicle that also managed to deliver what consumers want. The success of the model Y and model 3 certainly does not show that the Cybertruck is a great product. If anything, it shows that the Cybertruck is a failure that cannot compete on the ev market despite profiting from the legacy of Tesla.
I don't know anything about AfD. I don't typically comment on European political parties that I know nothing about. If that makes me a nazi defender then so be it. It's par for the course in terms of criticism I get here. But I still don't see how being the 3rd best selling EV makes it a failure. Is anything worse than #1 a failure for Tesla? Seems like a pretty harsh grading scale. But maybe us Nazis deserve to be graded harshly.
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On October 26 2024 18:29 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2024 14:32 ggrrg wrote:On October 26 2024 13:45 BlackJack wrote:
So the cybertruck, which is the ugly car that was supposed to highlight Elon Musk’s ineptitude is the 3rd best selling EV in the US, selling more than any EV by Ford, more than any EV by GM, more than any EV by Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Kia, and the comeback is “oh yeah well it’s only a few thousand more than #4. lol. It’s still behind the #1 and #2 best selling EVs, which you neglect to mention are also Teslas. Sorry this is just not a serious conversation. Obviously, you are not sorry. And obviously, your comment is meant to be sarcastic. You have a long track record of showing that you are incapable of human emotions anyway. Not sure if it is longer than your track record of asinine political statements but it surely is in the same ballpark. Your decision to forgo the comment on your defense of literal Nazis in the face of AfD is on par with your regular posts. But sure, let's ignore everything else and focus on the Cybertruck! In what world is it not "a serious conversation" to show that the Cybertruck is a failure of a product that sells just as badly as other fringe ev cars despite having the advantage of bolstering its sales numbers by pre-orders? How is it not "a serious conversation" to show that its sales are effectively an order of magnitude lower than the sales of the best selling ev car? Not to mention that I never said anything about the model 3 or model Y. As a matter of fact, the model Y is a pretty decent vehicle that also managed to deliver what consumers want. The success of the model Y and model 3 certainly does not show that the Cybertruck is a great product. If anything, it shows that the Cybertruck is a failure that cannot compete on the ev market despite profiting from the legacy of Tesla. I don't know anything about AfD. I don't typically comment on European political parties that I know nothing about. If that makes me a nazi defender then so be it. It's par for the course in terms of criticism I get here. But I still don't see how being the 3rd best selling EV makes it a failure. Is anything worse than #1 a failure for Tesla? Seems like a pretty harsh grading scale. But maybe us Nazis deserve to be graded harshly.
I would empathize but you just got done explaining that I could only say what I say because I'm jealous of Musk's success and overvalue my own intellect
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He’s an amazing person. We are faced with climate change/crisis unlike anything we have ever seen before.
He has actually done something instead of just talking.
His contribution to making the planet great again is unmatched by what anyone else has done.
If he supports free speech or whatever, who gives a fuck. Let his accomplishments speak for themselves. More power to him as far as I’m concerned.
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On October 26 2024 18:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2024 18:29 BlackJack wrote:On October 26 2024 14:32 ggrrg wrote:On October 26 2024 13:45 BlackJack wrote:
So the cybertruck, which is the ugly car that was supposed to highlight Elon Musk’s ineptitude is the 3rd best selling EV in the US, selling more than any EV by Ford, more than any EV by GM, more than any EV by Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Kia, and the comeback is “oh yeah well it’s only a few thousand more than #4. lol. It’s still behind the #1 and #2 best selling EVs, which you neglect to mention are also Teslas. Sorry this is just not a serious conversation. Obviously, you are not sorry. And obviously, your comment is meant to be sarcastic. You have a long track record of showing that you are incapable of human emotions anyway. Not sure if it is longer than your track record of asinine political statements but it surely is in the same ballpark. Your decision to forgo the comment on your defense of literal Nazis in the face of AfD is on par with your regular posts. But sure, let's ignore everything else and focus on the Cybertruck! In what world is it not "a serious conversation" to show that the Cybertruck is a failure of a product that sells just as badly as other fringe ev cars despite having the advantage of bolstering its sales numbers by pre-orders? How is it not "a serious conversation" to show that its sales are effectively an order of magnitude lower than the sales of the best selling ev car? Not to mention that I never said anything about the model 3 or model Y. As a matter of fact, the model Y is a pretty decent vehicle that also managed to deliver what consumers want. The success of the model Y and model 3 certainly does not show that the Cybertruck is a great product. If anything, it shows that the Cybertruck is a failure that cannot compete on the ev market despite profiting from the legacy of Tesla. I don't know anything about AfD. I don't typically comment on European political parties that I know nothing about. If that makes me a nazi defender then so be it. It's par for the course in terms of criticism I get here. But I still don't see how being the 3rd best selling EV makes it a failure. Is anything worse than #1 a failure for Tesla? Seems like a pretty harsh grading scale. But maybe us Nazis deserve to be graded harshly. I would empathize but you just got done explaining that I could only say what I say because I'm jealous of Musk's success and overvalue my own intellect
You said Musk had less intellect and was worse in nearly every metric we value than the average person on the street. To me that says the average person the street could run Tesla/SpaceX just as well as Musk if not better. I suspect you would include yourself as having at least as much intellect and other good metrics as the average person you pass on the street so I concluded that you believed you would be just as good or better at running a company as Elon Musk.
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On October 26 2024 19:20 Timebon3s wrote:
He’s an amazing person. We are faced with climate change/crisis unlike anything we have ever seen before.
He has actually done something instead of just talking.
His contribution to making the planet great again is unmatched by what anyone else has done.
If he supports free speech or whatever, who gives a fuck. Let his accomplishments speak for themselves. More power to him as far as I’m concerned.
Elon Musk banned the word "cis/cisgender" from Twitter. He's against free speech.
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On October 26 2024 20:05 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2024 18:49 Nebuchad wrote:On October 26 2024 18:29 BlackJack wrote:On October 26 2024 14:32 ggrrg wrote:On October 26 2024 13:45 BlackJack wrote:
So the cybertruck, which is the ugly car that was supposed to highlight Elon Musk’s ineptitude is the 3rd best selling EV in the US, selling more than any EV by Ford, more than any EV by GM, more than any EV by Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Kia, and the comeback is “oh yeah well it’s only a few thousand more than #4. lol. It’s still behind the #1 and #2 best selling EVs, which you neglect to mention are also Teslas. Sorry this is just not a serious conversation. Obviously, you are not sorry. And obviously, your comment is meant to be sarcastic. You have a long track record of showing that you are incapable of human emotions anyway. Not sure if it is longer than your track record of asinine political statements but it surely is in the same ballpark. Your decision to forgo the comment on your defense of literal Nazis in the face of AfD is on par with your regular posts. But sure, let's ignore everything else and focus on the Cybertruck! In what world is it not "a serious conversation" to show that the Cybertruck is a failure of a product that sells just as badly as other fringe ev cars despite having the advantage of bolstering its sales numbers by pre-orders? How is it not "a serious conversation" to show that its sales are effectively an order of magnitude lower than the sales of the best selling ev car? Not to mention that I never said anything about the model 3 or model Y. As a matter of fact, the model Y is a pretty decent vehicle that also managed to deliver what consumers want. The success of the model Y and model 3 certainly does not show that the Cybertruck is a great product. If anything, it shows that the Cybertruck is a failure that cannot compete on the ev market despite profiting from the legacy of Tesla. I don't know anything about AfD. I don't typically comment on European political parties that I know nothing about. If that makes me a nazi defender then so be it. It's par for the course in terms of criticism I get here. But I still don't see how being the 3rd best selling EV makes it a failure. Is anything worse than #1 a failure for Tesla? Seems like a pretty harsh grading scale. But maybe us Nazis deserve to be graded harshly. I would empathize but you just got done explaining that I could only say what I say because I'm jealous of Musk's success and overvalue my own intellect You said Musk had less intellect and was worse in nearly every metric we value than the average person on the street. To me that says the average person the street could run Tesla/SpaceX just as well as Musk if not better. I suspect you would include yourself as having at least as much intellect and other good metrics as the average person you pass on the street so I concluded that you believed you would be just as good or better at running a company as Elon Musk.
I see how you got there, but no. In your explanation what I believe is that it is correct that intellect and good morals are qualifiers for reaching the top level in our society, but that was wrongly attributed to Elon Musk as he is not intelligent or morally good, and instead it should have been given to someone else who is intelligent and morally good, like me.
Instead what I believe is that it is incorrect that intellect and good morals are qualifiers for reaching the top level in our society, which is why someone who is lacking in those departments, like Elon Musk, can do it. If I was in his position I couldn't get to his level at all, not even close, because I'm lacking in many of the actual attributes that you do need to get to his level: narcissism, bottomless greed, a complete disdain for truth and humans, and so on.
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On October 26 2024 19:20 Timebon3s wrote:
He’s an amazing person. We are faced with climate change/crisis unlike anything we have ever seen before.
He has actually done something instead of just talking.
His contribution to making the planet great again is unmatched by what anyone else has done.
If he supports free speech or whatever, who gives a fuck. Let his accomplishments speak for themselves. More power to him as far as I’m concerned.
Well he's definitely anti- free speech, and that's pretty important to some people. What he's been doing on Twitter does have real consequences, and so just like how we should give him credit for his positives, he also deserves blame for his negatives.
On the topic of climate change (I assume you're referring to pushing us forward on electric cars): I absolutely agree that he should receive credit for that. I think the existence of Tesla is a net good for society, if for no other reason that it lights a fire under the butts of other car manufacturers to get in the electric vehicle game too.
Now, on the other hand, Elon Musk has more recently been promoting extreme conservative and pro-Trump propaganda, and while I'm not trying to drag in too much politics, his support of the Trump administration completely undermines any potential argument one could make about how Musk is pro-environment or interested in addressing climate change. It's clear that Musk made Tesla just to make money, because Trump winning a second term would have a much, much, much more significant negative impact on our capacity to address climate change than Tesla's positive impact on moving away from gas-powered cars. Musk is literally going to Trump rallies, making financial contributions, and using Twitter to get Trump elected. Musk is a net-negative when it comes to climate change, because Trump's impact is more significant than Tesla's impact.
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On October 26 2024 19:20 Timebon3s wrote:
He’s an amazing person. We are faced with climate change/crisis unlike anything we have ever seen before.
He has actually done something instead of just talking.
His contribution to making the planet great again is unmatched by what anyone else has done.
If he supports free speech or whatever, who gives a fuck. Let his accomplishments speak for themselves. More power to him as far as I’m concerned.
Don’t know if sarcastic, i’ll assume not.
Musk has sabotaged plans to make public transits in several in places like California or Vegas with his scam hyperloop bullshit because that’s better for his business of selling cars.
America doesn’t need wannabe futuristic cars that go 0-60 in 1,5 seconds and certainly doesn’t need hyperloops and whatnot. It needs trains, trams, metros and buses. Because when you go to work with your Tesla you are still moving around 2 tons of plastic and metal that is powered by coal power plants that by the way Musk indirectly defends by putting his finantial might behind Trump.
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Great post DarkPlasmaBall. I see your points. But I still think he’s done a lot more good than bad.
As for Biff:
Electric cars are also powered by energy from wind, solar, water and so on. And the reason they are so fast is because the efficiency of an electric motor is close to 100% while a gasoline motor has an efficiency of 20-35%.
They also regenerate power from breaking that directly charges the battery.
I’m more concerned about what the world needs than just America. People will not stop using cars just because you think they should. Not everyone lives in cities or places you can use public transportation. And even if they did, some people will still prefer cars.
At least he’s come up with a better alternative.
But of course, non of this matters if you don’t like him.
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Northern Ireland26612 Posts
On October 27 2024 04:37 Timebon3s wrote:
Great post DarkPlasmaBall. I see your points. But I still think he’s done a lot more good than bad.
As for Biff:
Electric cars are also powered by energy from wind, solar, water and so on. And the reason they are so fast is because the efficiency of an electric motor is close to 100% while a gasoline motor has an efficiency of 20-35%.
They also regenerate power from breaking that directly charges the battery.
I’m more concerned about what the world needs than just America. People will not stop using cars just because you think they should. Not everyone lives in cities or places you can use public transportation. And even if they did, some people will still prefer cars.
At least he’s come up with a better alternative.
But of course, non of this matters if you don’t like him.
It’s not that he isn’t using his influence to rebuild public transport infrastructure after getting Tesla off the ground or w/e it’s that he has been actively hostile to it on numerous occasions
We’re talking about a guy with so little faith that we can solve the Earth’s climate problems that he invests time and energy into completely fantastical ideas about colonising places antithetical to human existence.
I can’t look into the souls of our fellow humans, personally I think the man is completely full of shit, thinks he has all the answers and he demonstrably does not. Whether he thinks he does well, that’s outside of my ability to judge
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His desire to colonise Mars has nothing to do with climate change. He wants it as a hedge against a catastrophic event on earth on the scale of the asteroid that ended most of the dinosaurs.
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Northern Ireland26612 Posts
On October 27 2024 05:07 RvB wrote:
His desire to colonise Mars has nothing to do with climate change. He wants it as a hedge against a catastrophic event on earth on the scale of the asteroid that ended most of the dinosaurs.
If that happens, the species is utterly fucked, and will be for the foreseeable, possibly permanently, regardless of colonialisation projects
It’s sci-fi nonsense. At a gigantic, gigantic expense maybe humanity could establish a Martian colony. But not one that could conceivably survive being cut off from us Earthlings, so it becomes ultimately immaterial as a way to hedge our collective bets.
People can survive at the North and South Poles alright, supplied. Cut those off and it’s not really a survivable environment for all outside a very select few.
Swap out some of the harshest environments on Earth, a known (and thus far uniquely) life-supporting planet, for a planet that is far from unique in not supporting life and is years away from assistance if shit hits the fan.
It’s so outrageously impractical at this juncture to ever seriously consider
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Its also dumb to try to colonize Mars, and not Venus.
Mars cannot sustain an atmosphere, but Venus can.
To me, Musk has done 2 good things, pushing EV and reinvigorating the space exploration hype.
His politics are garbage, he's kinda dumb and a drugged up narcissist/egomaniac, and i hope he loses all his money from his purchase of twitter. But hes the kind to fail upwards
He's also a huge security risk to the US.
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On October 27 2024 04:37 Timebon3s wrote:
Great post DarkPlasmaBall. I see your points. But I still think he’s done a lot more good than bad.
Thanks! Would you mind sharing one or two additional accomplishments of Elon Musk that you believe are admirable?
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Political commentator Van Jones made the point "If progressive have a politics that says all white people are racist, all men are toxic, and all billionaires are evil it's kinda hard to keep them on your side."
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On October 28 2024 07:14 BlackJack wrote:
Political commentator Van Jones made the point "If progressive have a politics that says all white people are racist, all men are toxic, and all billionaires are evil it's kinda hard to keep them on your side."
Van Jones is so dumb lol, the reason why billionnaires aren't progressive isn't because we're mean to them, it's because they benefit from maintaining the current social hierarchies, as they are obviously putting them way on top of us.
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EPT
