Elon Musk's lies, propaganda, etc. - Page 19

On November 12 2024 07:30 Razyda wrote:


I don't mind answering. I think part of the problems we have, not only on this forum but overall, lays in the fact that people trying to label everyone/everything. In my case people read my posts against Democrats/liberals and it seems decided that I must be republican/conservative. It is sort of "you are either with us or against us" sort of thinking, which I am not a fan of to be honest. Am I conservative? Hell no. Do I have some conservative values? Yes of course, and I think everyone has some (I happened to think that there cant be a society without some sort of conservative values - thinking of conservatism a bit as of tradition - it would be just bunch of people leaving in the same area) Of course I have also some liberal values (probably even more), I also happened to believe that pure conservatism is natural enemy of progress, by the very definition. My conclusion is that every human being should be some mix of the 2.


Edit:



Italic - that is fair critique.

Bolded - I specificaly said: " To be clear I am not saying that it will happen, merely that possibility exists and it is rather terryfing."

On November 12 2024 09:32 WombaT wrote:

It can be an indirect thing as well.

No/very very limited moderation/free speech absolutism may appear a neutral position, but in reality it may not be.

A respectful user doesn’t really benefit from that shift, directly. Malicious actors certainly do.

I don’t think this is Musk’s intent here, I think he genuinely believes the ‘marketplace of ideas’ shtick. I don’t, I don’t think it works on these platforms, we’ve seen it over and over again.

However, it’s a very difficult problem to solve as well, certainly not one previous management always nailed

On November 12 2024 09:49 Acrofales wrote:


While Musk probably bought Twitter as a midlife crisis kinda deal where he convinced himself of what you're saying, I don't think you can look at the actual outcome and maintain that it's just the "marketplace of ideas" gone wrong, and isn't also due to targeted censoring of some ideas (e.g. the well-documented cases of using "cis"), as well as the recommendation algorithm optimizing for "stuff Elon likes to read" and stuff posted by blue checks.

The idea that a "marketplace of ideas" is an unregulated square where everybody can yell their ideas is misguided. That doesn't lead to the best ideas being heard, it just leads to the loudest and most obnoxious screamers being heard. Musk bought the platform so that he could be that loud and obnoxious screamer.

I also don't think it's a failure by Musk. He may have driven Twitter into the ground economically, but it's still the largest and most used platform of its kind, and a giant megaphone from where he can, and will, blast his opinion. I'm not sure he ever cared about its commercial viability beyond "can I keep the lights on without too much effort", to which the answer is clearly yes.

On November 12 2024 07:58 Nebuchad wrote:


I would agree that humans naturally have mixed politics, not really that the mix is between liberalism and conservatism as those two ideologies are extremely similar to each other

If we agree that every human is a mix, then surely when someone is called a conservative we are asserting that they side more with conservatives than they do with the other groups, which in your case appears to be true, rather than that they agree with everything conservatives have ever said. It doesn't seem very damaging to be doing that. And in my case it wouldn't be a with us or against us, as (you may not know this actually) I very much hate liberals.

On November 12 2024 09:49 Acrofales wrote:


While Musk probably bought Twitter as a midlife crisis kinda deal where he convinced himself of what you're saying, I don't think you can look at the actual outcome and maintain that it's just the "marketplace of ideas" gone wrong, and isn't also due to targeted censoring of some ideas (e.g. the well-documented cases of using "cis"), as well as the recommendation algorithm optimizing for "stuff Elon likes to read" and stuff posted by blue checks.

The idea that a "marketplace of ideas" is an unregulated square where everybody can yell their ideas is misguided. That doesn't lead to the best ideas being heard, it just leads to the loudest and most obnoxious screamers being heard. Musk bought the platform so that he could be that loud and obnoxious screamer.

I also don't think it's a failure by Musk. He may have driven Twitter into the ground economically, but it's still the largest and most used platform of its kind, and a giant megaphone from where he can, and will, blast his opinion. I'm not sure he ever cared about its commercial viability beyond "can I keep the lights on without too much effort", to which the answer is clearly yes.

On November 12 2024 11:18 Razyda wrote:


bolded - Is it though? even recently I specified that I am not supporting Trump, I am in opposition to Democrats. This are 2 very different things.
For all Nazi, fascist, dictator talk I consider Trump ability to become a dictator at the same level as his ability to teleport, or resurrecting people (excluding situations in which he needs votes and read Gogol - where i find latter highly improbable). I am in agreement with John Oliver that Trump is like "A Hamster In An Attack Helicopter" although I think this is worst case scenario. What I disagree with him is that this time it will be different because he will have advisors. Advisors? Really? are we still talking about Trump? To follow someone advice you have to accept the fact that they know better than you...

On the other side are Democrats. I think they are way more dangerous. It is always: "to protect x we take away a bit of this right", "to protect y we take a bit of this right" and so on. Issue with this is that rights are finite and government sure as hell wont be happily returning powers it once acquired (shouldn't Patriot Act be temporary? how is that going?). I believe what happened during Covid under Democrats was straight up authoritarian and plain awful. I also suspect that if Musk didnt bought Twitter and if Democrats would won this election US would be for all means and purposes one party state with Republicans in perpetual minority (cant obviously prove that, but if Democrats hold control of social media like they did during Covid, I am not sure how Republicans could win)

On balance Trump may do some bad, or hopefully something good. Democrats on the other hand I dont see doing anything good.

Saw this recently:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/trumps-five-news-plans-after-becoming-president/articleshow/115106580.cms

If he manage/decide to actually pull that off, then even if after that he decides to randomly nuke New York I'll still take it as a win (admittedly though if he decides to nuke UK, or Poland then not so much)

On November 12 2024 11:18 Razyda wrote:


bolded - Is it though? even recently I specified that I am not supporting Trump, I am in opposition to Democrats. This are 2 very different things.
For all Nazi, fascist, dictator talk I consider Trump ability to become a dictator at the same level as his ability to teleport, or resurrecting people (excluding situations in which he needs votes and read Gogol - where i find latter highly improbable). I am in agreement with John Oliver that Trump is like "A Hamster In An Attack Helicopter" although I think this is worst case scenario. What I disagree with him is that this time it will be different because he will have advisors. Advisors? Really? are we still talking about Trump? To follow someone advice you have to accept the fact that they know better than you...

On the other side are Democrats. I think they are way more dangerous. It is always: "to protect x we take away a bit of this right", "to protect y we take a bit of this right" and so on. Issue with this is that rights are finite and government sure as hell wont be happily returning powers it once acquired (shouldn't Patriot Act be temporary? how is that going?). I believe what happened during Covid under Democrats was straight up authoritarian and plain awful. I also suspect that if Musk didnt bought Twitter and if Democrats would won this election US would be for all means and purposes one party state with Republicans in perpetual minority (cant obviously prove that, but if Democrats hold control of social media like they did during Covid, I am not sure how Republicans could win)

On balance Trump may do some bad, or hopefully something good. Democrats on the other hand I dont see doing anything good.

On November 12 2024 12:09 KwarK wrote:
For clarification, I joined the Republican Party after the bogus election fraud claims specifically so that I could serve as a Republican election judge (the position has way less power than you’d think). I’m probably not ideologically aligned with the rest of the party.

On November 12 2024 12:00 Nebuchad wrote:


On the bolded part, yeah I do think so, really. I think that the way you frame political clashes shows a sense of belonging. For example when you were defending BJ earlier in the US thread, you explained that democrats are pushing away people who have slight disagreements with them and that's costing them votes and election, every critique is heresy and they're to blame if those heretics start voting for republicans. This analysis doesn't work as a neutral one, as Republicans are doing the exact same thing, the Democrats, the enemies, are pedophiles and groomers, enemies of the nation, and the people who have slight disagreements are RINOs and might as well be enemies. We even have an example on this forum as KwarK on this topic functions essentially as a Democrat. I think that you're more sensitive to the former than to the latter because you don't perceive yourself as a target of the latter.

On November 12 2024 12:22 BlackJack wrote:


This is not even close to the same scale. Pretty much anyone with a Trump flag in their lawn is presumed to be a racist misogynist fascist by a large portion of Democrats. The amount of Republicans that see a Harris flag and think “they must molest children” is very small in comparison. Social media is filled with leftists posting on social media asking anyone that voted for Trump to cut ties with them and posts like “we can agree to disagree but not when it comes to wanting to enslave people” and nonsense like that.

On November 12 2024 13:14 BlackJack wrote:
You’re missing the crucial different that the fringe conspiracies of the cabal of baby eating pedophiles doesn’t include your average Dem voter. Nobody thinks Kwark is part of the cabal. Whereas everyone on the left thinks Trump voters are racist, misogynist fascists and you don’t even have to travel off this site for evidence of that.

On November 12 2024 12:22 BlackJack wrote:


This is not even close to the same scale. Pretty much anyone with a Trump flag in their lawn is presumed to be a racist misogynist fascist by a large portion of Democrats. The amount of Republicans that see a Harris flag and think “they must molest children” is very small in comparison. Social media is filled with leftists posting on social media asking anyone that voted for Trump to cut ties with them and posts like “we can agree to disagree but not when it comes to wanting to enslave people” and nonsense like that.

On November 12 2024 13:14 BlackJack wrote:
You’re missing the crucial different that the fringe conspiracies of the cabal of baby eating pedophiles doesn’t include your average Dem voter. Nobody thinks Kwark is part of the cabal. Whereas everyone on the left thinks Trump voters are racist, misogynist fascists and you don’t even have to travel off this site for evidence of that.

On November 12 2024 18:47 KwarK wrote:

People with a Trump flag are racists. The presumption is reasonable.

On November 12 2024 12:09 KwarK wrote:
For clarification, I joined the Republican Party after the bogus election fraud claims specifically so that I could serve as a Republican election judge (the position has way less power than you’d think). I’m probably not ideologically aligned with the rest of the party.

On November 12 2024 12:22 BlackJack wrote:
This is not even close to the same scale. Pretty much anyone with a Trump flag in their lawn is presumed to be a racist misogynist fascist by a large portion of Democrats. The amount of Republicans that see a Harris flag and think “they must molest children” is very small in comparison. Social media is filled with leftists posting on social media asking anyone that voted for Trump to cut ties with them and posts like “we can agree to disagree but not when it comes to wanting to enslave people” and nonsense like that.

On November 12 2024 19:21 Fleetfeet wrote:


This is true insofar as 'everyone on the left' (read - some, or charitably 'most' people with progressive / inclusive ideology) thinks 'Trump voters' (read - not exclusively, but as part of a society that has issues with racism and sexism) are "racist, mysoginist fascists' (read - If you can accept that a society has widespread issues with racism and sexism then someone being racist or sexist is the default and reasonable to expect of someone).

I expect you're racist and sexist - that's the default. I don't know why you're compelled to try protect trump supporters from the same criticism.

Trump's only ever won the presidency when competing against women. I don't think that's wrong and I don't think it's the only reason, but I do think it's foolish to loudly shout that trump voters aren't sexist when they probably are. Don't worry, they're not special and unique flowers, you don't need to protect all... 74 million? of them. There's more than 74 million sexist people in the US.

On November 12 2024 11:47 WombaT wrote:

Real ‘enlightened centrist’ vibes here.

The Patriot Act was a disgrace, and should have been temporary. Which party brought that in? Although the Dems minus like Russ Feingold and maybe one other (from memory) showed no fucking balls on it.

If you say you’re not supporting Trump, you just consider Democrats worse

You’re worried about a one party state if the Dems had won. But apparently not worried about a Trump who is ON TAPE pressuring electors last time around, who has both Houses now, a Supreme Court stacked in his favour now?

I don’t personally agree but I think Covid policy is fair crit. I think the Dems broadly pursued policy I agreed with and thought was sensible, but I can understand some opposition.

I can’t, and won’t accept anyone claiming they fear a Democratic one party state who considers an alternative preferable who is the only person in the living memory of most of us who actually tried to fuck with the electoral democratic process directly.

Nope, divergent opinions are allowed, that isn’t. It’s just straight nonsense

On November 12 2024 12:00 Nebuchad wrote:


On the bolded part, yeah I do think so, really. I think that the way you frame political clashes shows a sense of belonging. For example when you were defending BJ earlier in the US thread, you explained that democrats are pushing away people who have slight disagreements with them and that's costing them votes and election, every critique is heresy and they're to blame if those heretics start voting for republicans. This analysis doesn't work as a neutral one, as Republicans are doing the exact same thing, the Democrats, the enemies, are pedophiles and groomers, enemies of the nation, and the people who have slight disagreements are RINOs and might as well be enemies. We even have an example on this forum as KwarK on this topic functions essentially as a Democrat. I think that you're more sensitive to the former than to the latter because you don't perceive yourself as a target of the latter.

For your analysis of the election outcomes, I see it as most likely unrealistic because it ignores the systemic role of Democrats, which is to do as few things as possible. It's the Republicans that are the party of change, so they come in and make things worse for Americans (especially minorities but not only), and then the Democrats come in and try as hard as they can to simply not be Republicans, so things don't get worse but they also don't improve. If you remember Trump's first term, it had a lot more shit happening: signing out of the Paris Accords, the end of the Iran deal and a more pro-Israel stance, huge tax cuts for the rich, fucking over immigration and abortion (this one through the supreme court), a barely failed attempt to eliminate the public health insurance... And that's what I can remember at 4am four years later in Switzerland. There is no comparison to what Biden did with his power, and Kamala would have followed the same line simply because that's what she's meant to do. If she was someone who was threatening to do things remotely in the scale you're considering there, such as Bernie might have been, she simply wouldn't have been the nominee.